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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Show yourselves, investigators
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Mrredbirdy
The Shire

Jun 21 2013, 2:49pm

Post #1 of 33 (1117 views)
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Show yourselves, investigators Can't Post

How the Dol Guldur plot will work out is still one big mystery for us.
We know however a litlle bit about three scenes:
1.The High Fells scene
2.Thrain vs Gandalf fight in Dol Guldur
3.Radagast and Gandalf walking into a trap

1. We have seen the High Fells scene in the trailer. It's about Gandalf discovering that the tombs of the nine are empty. During this scene Radagast shows up, saying: "Where am I?" Well where are the High Fells? Some say they are called the High Fells of Rhudaur and they lie west of the Misty Mountains, not so far away from Rivendell. If this is the case, it would be impossible for Gandalf to leave the company, travel to the High Fells, and get back. Beside that, the Misty Mountains will be swarming with orks (Goblin King's death) and impossible to travel across. Maybe this scene will be a flashback? (Gandalf telling the company what he has been doing when they left Rivendell, or Gandalf telling his worries to Beorn?) The bonus track of AUJ: "The Edge of the Wild" seems to fit the scene, so maybe the High Fells where originally meant for AUJ and then it was moved to DOS. Bring your ideas...

2. We all know, Gandalf gets the key and the map from Thrain in Dol Guldur and after that Thrain dies. The question here is, will this be a flashback or not? A flashback seems the only reasonable choise, but some say that Gandalf is wearing Glamdring in the scene. Investigate yourself:
http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2013/06/19/74024-frame-by-frame-analysis-of-the-hobbit-the-desolation-of-smaug-trailer-2/11/#jp-carousel-73482
Glamdring: http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Glamdring
I think the sword is too little to be Glamdring and the handle is too short, but I'm not sure.

3. Don't know anything about this scene. You see Radagast and Gandalf at Dol Guldur. Radagast says:" What if it is a trap?" And Gandalf answers: "It's undoubtedly a trap" and then he pulls out Glamdring.

Investigate yourselves and bring forth your ideas...


LordGawain
Rivendell

Jun 21 2013, 3:06pm

Post #2 of 33 (528 views)
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glamdring [In reply to] Can't Post

It is most definitely Glamdring. The perspective is forced by the rather short lens, but if you look at the beginning of the actual blade, you'll see the typical curve of his blade, it gets broader and then smaller again, one inch away from the handle.
It is probably not a flashback. Gandalf said at bag end he got the key from Thrain for safekeeping. why would we need to see that? we already know it happened.


(This post was edited by LordGawain on Jun 21 2013, 3:07pm)


bungobaggins
Lorien


Jun 21 2013, 3:41pm

Post #3 of 33 (481 views)
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Yes, yes! [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been saying since the trailer was released that he is holding Glamdring! All one need do is look at the base of the blade!

I reckon that the "It's a trap!" scene will immediately precede the "Spider-Thrain" scene. We see Gandalf draw Glamdring as Radagast begins to walk away, then we see him holding it as Thrain leaps from 30 feet in the air. Crazy uggghhhhhhUnsure

Because they've altered everything they can't go back and have one aspect correct (Gandalf getting the map and key in DG), because it wouldn't line up. No logical explanation for why Gandalf would be there, why Thrain is there, when exactly it happens.

From what we've seen in AUJ, it appears that the last thing that was on Gandalf's mind was DG. He would have no reason to be wandering around there prior to Radagast's revelation.

There will be one encounter with Thrain, and it will not happen in flashback.

...

I think. Otherwise it doesn't make any sense for Hobbit-Movie.

Well...when you've altered the story so much that even hardcore fans have no clue what's going on, you know you've slipped up somewhere. Hmmm...but do they know?

"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!" - Gandalf

Darth Bungo: "Gandalf the Gray never told you what happened to your father."
Bilbo Barrel-rider: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him."
Darth Bungo: "No, I am your father."


Frodo Lives
The Shire

Jun 21 2013, 5:03pm

Post #4 of 33 (405 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur for the first time in DOS with Radagast. Things get spooky, General Ackbar gives a line, Gandalf draws Glamdring, Radagast walks away, and Thrain drops onto Gandalf. Gandalf drops his sword, and now has to resort to fighting with his staff.


grinman
Rivendell


Jun 21 2013, 5:21pm

Post #5 of 33 (404 views)
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Moria, Dol Guldur.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's my own theory:

-High Fells scene will be EE on AUJ or referenced in flashback during DoS.

- Gandalf's initial meeting with Thrain, receiving the map and key and Thrain's subsequent death will be in flashback. Since I believe Gandalf's first visit to Dol Guldur will be in DOS, then this first meeting between Thrain and Gandy must take place somewhere else. I think it'll take place in the Mines of Moria. This is where Thrain went missing and was probably captured. This would also tie into Gandalf's line in FoTR about having been to Moria before. He will recieve the map and key and Thrain will die... this will set up the foreshadowing for Thrain making a reappeartance

- Gandalf and Radagast will visit Dol Guldur together in DoS, where the "trap" line is spoken. a necromanced Thrain will then attack them. This will confirm Radagast's suspicions of there being a necromancer and also that the threat of Dol Guldur is worse than first thought.


LordGawain
Rivendell

Jun 21 2013, 6:57pm

Post #6 of 33 (334 views)
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now [In reply to] Can't Post

That moria idea is kinda cool. It wouldn't be completely cannon, but it is the best they can do at this point.

evidence leading in this direction:
-Gandalf has traveled through Moria before.
-Thrain somehow 'went missing, taken prisoner or killed' during the battle of Azanulbizar, on the doorsteps of Moria.

They could move Thrain being captured tortured by the orcs, being found by Gandalf and giving him the key and dying to Moria. This would practically be canon, they would only have to change the location. And it would be really cool to see Gandalf the Grey entering moria from the east, crossing the bridge of Kazad Dum, where almost 100 years later he will fall.

This would probably mean that the dwarf in DG is Thrain brought back to life by the Necromancer, something I wouldn't like all that much.


Gorbag
Rivendell


Jun 21 2013, 8:45pm

Post #7 of 33 (341 views)
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Prediction for Gandalf/Thrain fight [In reply to] Can't Post

That is for sure 100000% Glamdring firstly.

I think Gandalf/Thrain will have two meetings.

First meeting (Pre Glamdring/Bag End), in Dol Guldur prisons gets map/key from ''Good-Non-Zombie'' Thrain and Gandalf leaves after Thrain ''Dies''...or so Gandalf thinks.

Second meeting (In DOS) happens when Gandalf investigates Dol Guldur, ''Bad-Zombie'' Thrain attacks. Thrain could well have been ressurected by The Necromancer into a curropted/zombie state.

May well get a flashback scene before Gandalf goes to investigate Dol Guldur, which sets up ''Good-Non-Zombie'' Thrain being ''Dead'' so the audience will know who is attacking Gandalf during the attack scene.

I know the whole zombie thing is not in the book, but well, this isnt the book.

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve. - J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jun 22 2013, 1:00am

Post #8 of 33 (249 views)
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High Fells will be in DoS according to the trailer [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Here's my own theory:

-High Fells scene will be EE on AUJ or referenced in flashback during DoS.

- Gandalf's initial meeting with Thrain, receiving the map and key and Thrain's subsequent death will be in flashback. Since I believe Gandalf's first visit to Dol Guldur will be in DOS, then this first meeting between Thrain and Gandy must take place somewhere else. I think it'll take place in the Mines of Moria. This is where Thrain went missing and was probably captured. This would also tie into Gandalf's line in FoTR about having been to Moria before. He will recieve the map and key and Thrain will die... this will set up the foreshadowing for Thrain making a reappeartance

- Gandalf and Radagast will visit Dol Guldur together in DoS, where the "trap" line is spoken. a necromanced Thrain will then attack them. This will confirm Radagast's suspicions of there being a necromancer and also that the threat of Dol Guldur is worse than first thought.



Kimtc
Rohan


Jun 22 2013, 1:35am

Post #9 of 33 (241 views)
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I think you are spot on. [In reply to] Can't Post

Most casual viewers probably haven't completely sussed out the difference between Thror/Thrain/Thorin, so they will need a refresher to remember Balin's comment during his description of Azanulbizar (hopefully it won't be so obvious as Gandalf saying "It's Thrain, son of Thror, father of Thorin!").

My take on how they were going to handle Thrain at this point was like Theon/Reek in GOT. You know, tortured until he loses his identity and becomes the corrupted servant.


In Reply To
May well get a flashback scene before Gandalf goes to investigate Dol Guldur, which sets up ''Good-Non-Zombie'' Thrain being ''Dead'' so the audience will know who is attacking Gandalf during the attack scene.

I know the whole zombie thing is not in the book, but well, this isnt the book.



Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Jun 22 2013, 4:16am

Post #10 of 33 (240 views)
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Do you have the first Hobbit Chronicles book? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't have it, but I think I remember hearing that there is a spread on the designs for Thror and Thrain in which I believe they confirm the Moria meeting theory.

Can anyone who owns the book corroborate this?

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 22 2013, 5:53am

Post #11 of 33 (230 views)
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I would very much hope to see, since the Nazgul are in Dol Guldur by the movie account [In reply to] Can't Post

a confrontation between Gandalf and The Nine Nazgul akin to the one that was in Fellowship but left out of the films. "They drew away, for they felt the coming of my anger and they dared not face it while the sun was in the sky. But at night they closed round. . . I was besieged on the hilltop in the (ruins of ) Amon Sul. . . I was hard put to it indeed. Such light and flame cannot have been seen on Weathertop since the war beacons of olde!"

It would make the most since for him to fight his way out, just barely, be aided in the get away by Radagast and report urgently to the council. There are other ways it could be handled, but this would be the most satisfying and the most sensible, gathering the most material from the novels in a convincing way (as opposed to having something patently dumb like the Wizard who defeats a Balrog barely defeating an orc captain like Bolg etc. etc. ).

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jun 22 2013, 6:00am

Post #12 of 33 (219 views)
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I have both [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I don't have it, but I think I remember hearing that there is a spread on the designs for Thror and Thrain in which I believe they confirm the Moria meeting theory.

Can anyone who owns the book corroborate this?


I'll check them out for you!


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jun 22 2013, 6:05am

Post #13 of 33 (228 views)
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Gandalf injured/captured [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with you, AinurOlorin, that Gandalf can't be taken by Bolg alone. I suspect Thrain will either injure him in that ridiculous jump or he will lose his staff and the orcs(maybe a Nazgul or two) and Bolg(it is in the dungeons) will grab the staff and capture him. This is all assuming he will be injured and maybe captured in his visit to DG. It would explain the missing staff though.


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jun 22 2013, 2:21pm

Post #14 of 33 (179 views)
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The Moria idea is all well and good... [In reply to] Can't Post

and has some basis in canon as Gandalf does say, at the Council of Elrond, that he had gone looking for Thrain in Moria when he first disappeared.

if it is simply a case of transferring the scene from DG to Moria, as written, with Thrain dying in Gandalf's arms, then the Thrain we've seen in the DG clips from the trailers must therefore have been reanimated by The Necromancer. Otherwise, PJ will have to explain why Gandalf would leave a live Thrain as a prisoner in Moria!


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Jun 22 2013, 3:44pm

Post #15 of 33 (163 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

I really should add them to my collection, but I've been waiting for them to decrease in price a bit.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jun 22 2013, 6:58pm

Post #16 of 33 (144 views)
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Nothing [In reply to] Can't Post

Neither of the books had anything about Moria and Thrain.

BTW right now both books are on sale at Barnes and Noble. I'd check it out online or if you have one near where you live.


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Jun 22 2013, 7:59pm

Post #17 of 33 (138 views)
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Darn! [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder where I came up with that. Thanks for the info on the sale; I'll have to check it out.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jun 22 2013, 8:22pm

Post #18 of 33 (140 views)
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No - but... [In reply to] Can't Post

Did you see this quote from Richard Armitage on page 59 of the Second Weta Chronicles?

"Thorin is the same. He hasn't slept easily in his bed since the Dragon expelled them from Erebor. Thorin's grandfather went mad and his father disappeared a year ago to the day when the Quest begins...."

I don't know if this is just RA making up some back story for his own benefit, or if it is the official storyline - but, really? Only ONE year???? Crazy


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 22 2013, 9:03pm

Post #19 of 33 (119 views)
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Wonder if it's a typo. [In reply to] Can't Post

Or a misquote. I caught that also: it should be, a hundred years ago. RA is familiar with the books, and would have known that.

It would seem that he's using the book background here, where Thror "was a little crazed perhaps with age and misfortune and long brooding on the splendour of Moria in his forefathers' days", and thus ended up being beheaded by Azog.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jun 22 2013, 9:34pm

Post #20 of 33 (107 views)
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Ah, right...that would make more sense - must be a misquote! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jun 22 2013, 10:34pm

Post #21 of 33 (102 views)
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Almost one hundred years... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Or a misquote. I caught that also: it should be, a hundred years ago. RA is familiar with the books, and would have known that.

It would seem that he's using the book background here, where Thror "was a little crazed perhaps with age and misfortune and long brooding on the splendour of Moria in his forefathers' days", and thus ended up being beheaded by Azog.



Technically, Thrain went missing ninety years before the Quest of Erebor began. I also hope that that's a misquote or misstatement.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 22 2013, 10:35pm)


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 23 2013, 1:40am

Post #22 of 33 (86 views)
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Actually, it was "the twenty-first of April, [In reply to] Can't Post

a hundred years ago last Thursday" as they were all sitting in Bag End. Appendix B confirms the 2841-2941 span.

I've always gotten a chuckle out of that "hundred years ago last Thursday" bit!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jun 23 2013, 2:05am

Post #23 of 33 (82 views)
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Aw, heck. You're right... [In reply to] Can't Post

I should have remembered that myself! Tongue

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 23 2013, 6:32am

Post #24 of 33 (72 views)
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If Bolg snatches his staff I am leaving the theater and turning my back on the series. I [In reply to] Can't Post

have gotten over and overlooked many things I did not like, because the whole was much better than the particular offenses were bad, but THAT. . . a damned bridge too damned far. lol

What would be more fitting would be for him to overwhelm Bolg, hold his own against and perhaps defeat The Nazgul, but then have his staff broken when Sauron himself comes forward, and he barely escapes thanks to Radagast returning in the nick of time etc. etc.

In Reply To
I agree with you, AinurOlorin, that Gandalf can't be taken by Bolg alone. I suspect Thrain will either injure him in that ridiculous jump or he will lose his staff and the orcs(maybe a Nazgul or two) and Bolg(it is in the dungeons) will grab the staff and capture him. This is all assuming he will be injured and maybe captured in his visit to DG. It would explain the missing staff though.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 23 2013, 6:40am

Post #25 of 33 (69 views)
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"That my dear Balin is not entirely true. [In reply to] Can't Post

In Fellowship, concerning Moria, "I sought long there for Thrain after he was lost. . ." Doubtless suspecting that Thrain had a great Ring and was hunted, and likely also seeing that it was a wise time to reach out to Durin's folk and heirs, the search for Thrain was its own matter, and began ere the espionage in Dol Guldur, where at the last Thrain was found beyond hope and by "chance" as a tangential (yet essential as it became) consequence of a mission of another purpose.

Or are you talking about the movie books? In that case, the Visual Companion does mention Thrain and Moria and even The Balrog.

My apolgies MitchKing, I looked back through and found it was Chronicles you spoke of. I have both, and you are right, neither connect Thrain to Moria. in any relevant way.

In Reply To
Neither of the books had anything about Moria and Thrain.

BTW right now both books are on sale at Barnes and Noble. I'd check it out online or if you have one near where you live.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Jun 23 2013, 6:42am)

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