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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Dol Guldur-Timeline

NoelGallagher
Rohan


Jun 20 2013, 8:15pm

Post #1 of 17 (1003 views)
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Dol Guldur-Timeline Can't Post

So like most of you im also very confused how they will handle this subplot. It would be really interesting to see what you all think about it and describe your ideas.

So,here is mine:

1. as a Flashback/Prologue for DoS:

Gandalf meeting up with Thrain at Dol Guldur for the first time, where he gets the key and map.Thats why he knows where to go through the fortress on his second visit together with Radagast. Maybe he had to leave very fast or Thrain died right after giving him both for safekeeping. IF that is the case, he will be resurrected by the Necromancer after that.

Reason ? Thorins quest-further information to Azog-Azog starts haunting the dwarves.

2. in present time:

Gandalf leaves the Dwarves after Beorn, travelling to the High Fells of Rhudaur. I dont think geography is such a important point for PJ concerning this scene ;)
Also its possible that these Tombs are situated on the right side of the Misty Mountains, although that isnt Rhudaur anymore i guess ?! However, i think that in Beorns House he will explain that he has to meet up again with Radagast. There could be a short flashback too, where he tells Radagast to meet up there,but not for which reason. Thats why Radagast says during the tomb-sequence "why am i here Gandalf?" That scene should talk place when Radagast tells Gandalf about his discoveries at Dol Guldur in AUJ. If so, that scene could be also in the Extended Edition.
They decide to travel to Dol Guldur again after seeing the tombs are all empty...

3. in present time:

Both arrive at Dol Guldur and Gandalf immediatly notices that there is something massive wrong. Possibly he feels another strong power hiding in the old fortress. Later on , he gets attacked by a driven mad and resurrected Thrain and gets imprisoned by Bolg and his orcs. Radagast is able to escape and informed the White Council about what happened at Dol Guldur...

THE END with the subplot for DoS.

I guess we will see the Assault on Dol Guldur and Galadriel rescueing Gandalf in There and back again. Just my personal impression because otherwise DoS would be a bit overloaded to me. Gandalf imprisoned is a nice cliffhanger as well to me.

Your ideas/suggestions ?!


LordGawain
Rivendell

Jun 20 2013, 8:44pm

Post #2 of 17 (485 views)
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Gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post

I keep hearing these rumors that Gandalf might be inprisoned. Where did those come from? Anyone got a source hinting at that? I thought all we knew was that Galadriel carries Gandalf to safety at some point.

Also, it might be a nice cliffhanger to have gandalf captured, but that does not seem like enough story for an entire second storyline in DoS. While we see:
1. the dwarves travel to mirkwood
2. fight the spiders, meet the elves
3. have the elves introduction
4. their captivity
5. the barrel escape and battle scene
6. travel to the long lake
7. bard's storyline
8. the mayor's storyline
9. the journey to the misty mountain
10. the finding and opening of the door
11. the conversation with smaug
12. probably the attack on laketown,

we would only cut three times to Gandalf:
1. tomb investigation
2. entering Dol Guldor
3. being captured

that last scene would have to be at the end, so in the entire part between Beorn and Smaug, we would only cut to Gandalf twice. that would not work, the second plot would loose all momentum. There must be more to it than that.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jun 20 2013, 9:02pm

Post #3 of 17 (457 views)
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Thrain [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm almost certain the Thrain/Gandalf fight will take place in the present (unfortunately IMO), because all of the other appendix material has been moved into the present.

I REALLY hope they don't make Thrain into some resurrected zombie dwarf though. That would annoy me.


burgahobbit
Rohan


Jun 20 2013, 9:59pm

Post #4 of 17 (444 views)
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Galadriel and Radagast [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that Galadriel rescuing Gandalf might be in this movie. They seemed to set it up nicely in AUJ and I'd doubt they'd wait for TABA to bring Galadriel back into it.

On a side note, I think maybe that when Radagast says "Why am I here, Gandalf?" it is meant to be a very far fetched (yet for that reason comical) line meaning that he just happened to show up at the tombs when Gandalf was there. It's not likely I suppose but I think it's PJ's sense of humor and it would be in line with Radagast's character in general (scatterbrained and sometimes lucky).

(This post was edited by burgahobbit on Jun 20 2013, 10:01pm)


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Jun 21 2013, 12:32am

Post #5 of 17 (345 views)
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He can be scatterbrained [In reply to] Can't Post

as long as he doesn't die. I really hope they don't do that.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 21 2013, 7:08am

Post #6 of 17 (287 views)
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I don't see him being captured there. More likely (one would hope) to stay more true to the books [In reply to] Can't Post

he escapes, fighting his way out one would imagine and likely escaping thanks to having Radagast as a get away man, and reports back to the council finally prompting an attack.

The injury and Galadriel aid may come at the end or in the last film.

In Reply To
So like most of you im also very confused how they will handle this subplot. It would be really interesting to see what you all think about it and describe your ideas.

So,here is mine:

1. as a Flashback/Prologue for DoS:

Gandalf meeting up with Thrain at Dol Guldur for the first time, where he gets the key and map.Thats why he knows where to go through the fortress on his second visit together with Radagast. Maybe he had to leave very fast or Thrain died right after giving him both for safekeeping. IF that is the case, he will be resurrected by the Necromancer after that.

Reason ? Thorins quest-further information to Azog-Azog starts haunting the dwarves.

2. in present time:

Gandalf leaves the Dwarves after Beorn, travelling to the High Fells of Rhudaur. I dont think geography is such a important point for PJ concerning this scene ;)
Also its possible that these Tombs are situated on the right side of the Misty Mountains, although that isnt Rhudaur anymore i guess ?! However, i think that in Beorns House he will explain that he has to meet up again with Radagast. There could be a short flashback too, where he tells Radagast to meet up there,but not for which reason. Thats why Radagast says during the tomb-sequence "why am i here Gandalf?" That scene should talk place when Radagast tells Gandalf about his discoveries at Dol Guldur in AUJ. If so, that scene could be also in the Extended Edition.
They decide to travel to Dol Guldur again after seeing the tombs are all empty...

3. in present time:

Both arrive at Dol Guldur and Gandalf immediatly notices that there is something massive wrong. Possibly he feels another strong power hiding in the old fortress. Later on , he gets attacked by a driven mad and resurrected Thrain and gets imprisoned by Bolg and his orcs. Radagast is able to escape and informed the White Council about what happened at Dol Guldur...

THE END with the subplot for DoS.

I guess we will see the Assault on Dol Guldur and Galadriel rescueing Gandalf in There and back again. Just my personal impression because otherwise DoS would be a bit overloaded to me. Gandalf imprisoned is a nice cliffhanger as well to me.

Your ideas/suggestions ?!


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jun 21 2013, 7:55am

Post #7 of 17 (272 views)
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DG puzzle [In reply to] Can't Post

How boring and pointless would two scenes with Gandalf and Thrain be??

Here are the facts followed by my speculation.

Gandalf said he got the key and map from Thrain for "safekeeping". Safekeeping is not something a crazy person is worried about so I think Gandalf gets them froma normal Thrain maybe in Moria or somewhere else.

Gandalf meets Thrain in DG in the present because he has Glamdring. I doubt there will be two DG/Thrain scenes so Gandalf will get jumped by Thrain in the present IMO. Thrain probably reveals the Necromancer's identity when he calms down.

Radagast may or may not be leaving DG in the "it's a trap" scene. I think Raddy is leaving and this scene is connected to the Gandalf/Thrain scene. I believe we will see only one Gandalf visit to DG in DoS.

The "trap" is either Thrain, Bolg and orcs, a mix of the two. I suspect Gandalf will think Thrain is the trap at first but then realize that Bolg and orcs are waiting in the dungeons for the right moment. Maybe they let Thrain out on purpose to catch him off guard.

So to summarize.

1) Gandalf got the key/map earlier somewhere else. Maybe they won't even address the key/map.
2) Gandalf and Radagast check out the High Fells and Gandalf is like "dang all the Nazgul are loose and DG seems like it's worth checking out". I suspect there is something else that will happen in this scene otherwise it's pointless as Radast already saw a damned Nazgul.
3) Radagast leads Gandalf to DG then leaves warning of a trap.
4) Gandalf finds and fights Thrain in the dungeons.
5) Thrain calms down and reveals the Necromancer's identity.
6) As soon is Gandalf finds out he is jumped by Bolg/orcs/possibly some other baddies
7) Gandalf is injured but escapes and tells/sets up the White Council attack or he is captured and the council attacks to save him.
8) The attack will most likely (and sadly to me) be in TABA.


Yngwulff
Gondor


Jun 21 2013, 8:28am

Post #8 of 17 (261 views)
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yeah why 2 [In reply to] Can't Post

Why the alteration? It seems to overcomplicate things just to bring Radaghast into the story with some relevance, and was totally unnecesary. PJ could have easily introduced him by either Gandalf seeking his help or Raddy just coming to him telling him about the spiders and the evil spreading in Mirkwood from Dol Guldur and it would have been sufficient as opposed to "fixing" what was not broken. Unless he just happens to run into Thrain at Bree or somewhere else prior to the events in the Hobbit ... which seems the best way to handle it now to me, its too overcomplicated.


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Glum
Bree

Jun 21 2013, 9:39am

Post #9 of 17 (269 views)
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Two questions that need to be answered [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Do we really know that Gandalf got the key and map in Dol Guldur? Well, he did in the book but that's another thing :)
2. Do we really know that the dwarvish character who Gandalf encounters in DG (in the trailer) is Train? Well, he is likely to be Train, but has anyone from PJ team confirmed this?

btw I do hope that Gandalf enters DG only once in DOS. I wouldn't like too much repetition...


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jun 21 2013, 12:19pm

Post #10 of 17 (219 views)
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Good questions [In reply to] Can't Post

The answer to 1. seems to be "no". I would say we don't even need to know where/when Gandalf got the map.

The answer to 2. is not definitively known, however an actor named Michael Mizrahi seems to have been cast as Thrain for AUJ. To me, an appearance at DG seems the most likely use for Thrain in this film.


nhui06
Rivendell

Jun 21 2013, 4:09pm

Post #11 of 17 (174 views)
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Good guess [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting ideas here.

Maybe the prologue can have Gandalf stumbling upon Thrain being captured by a band of orcs the first time in Dol Guldur. Gandalf fights them off, but Thrain is mortally wounded, giving Gandalf his key and treasure map before he passes. With nothing else to do, Gandalf leaves.

Flash forward to current times, Gandalf revisits Dol Guldur with Radgast, but is surprised when he is attacked by a 'zombified' Thrain. The book only refers to the name of the Necromencer, but doesn't explain why he is called that, so this Necromencer has to live up to his name somehow. Maybe the trap is to lure Gandalf back (for the key and map to Erebor?) I don't know.


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jun 21 2013, 6:00pm

Post #12 of 17 (176 views)
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The meaning of Necromancer in the Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

Some people on here have suggested that it stands for the second listed meaning "using black magic" and not necessarily raising or summoning the dead. The problem with that is that Radagast says something like "A necromancer, one with power to raise the dead" or something incredibly similar. Plus you have the "sword thats not from the world of the living" and the whole tomb scene that is basically set up to show some kind of revival of the dead by Sauron.


LordGawain
Rivendell

Jun 21 2013, 7:06pm

Post #13 of 17 (148 views)
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As I said in a similar thread [In reply to] Can't Post

I seems to me that we will see, in a flashback, Gandalf traveling through Moria (as he references in FotR), finding Thrain there, who was captured and tortured at the battle of Azanulbizar (as referenced by Balin in AUJ), and have him give the key and die. Later, Thrain would appear as a resurrected minion of Sauron at DG.

This would:
-ensure not to have the repetition of Gandalf visiting DG twice
-explain the glamdring-question
-maybe give us a cool intro for DoS
-I personally would love to see gandalf the grey travelling through moria and crossing a not yet destroyed bridge of Kazad Dum.
-I personally would not mind seeing this. A resurrected thrain is against the lore, but all the rest is very much true to the Lore, except that they change the location. Not ideal, but I would be able to accept it, and very much enjoy the movie version.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jun 22 2013, 12:26am

Post #14 of 17 (112 views)
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Zombies [In reply to] Can't Post

Radagast says to Gandalf that the Necromancer can "summon the spirits of the dead", not "raise the dead", and it looks like this was in reference to the Ringwraith who attacked Radagast in Dol Guldur, not zombies. Likewise, the Morgul blade and the tombs have to do with the Nazgul. I didn't see anything in the film at all that would lead me to believe that there will be zombies.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Jun 22 2013, 12:29am)


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jun 22 2013, 12:57am

Post #15 of 17 (100 views)
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I'm not expecting zombies [In reply to] Can't Post

Note that I said Raddy said that or something similar to that. My point was that some people thought that "Necromancer" meant he was just dealing in black magic but it seems to me that clearly he is summoning or communicating with spirits of the dead which is the usual meaning of Necromancy. I have never thought zombies would be involved and I have never implied it anywhere. You must have misread or took me the wrong way. I hate the idea of zombies. The whole summoning spirits could maybe involve the reanimating of bodies for said spirits but I don't have any reason to think that will happen. The Thrain and orc stuff will not involve "zombies" IMO.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jun 22 2013, 1:16am

Post #16 of 17 (97 views)
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Revival of the dead [In reply to] Can't Post

My apologies if I misconstrued. You mentioned that you thought the filmmakers were setting up a "revival of the dead" scenario, so I just assumed you were referring to Sauron reanimating dead bodies (which is a popular bit of speculation around here). Thus far in the film, it would seem that all of the references to "summoning the dead" and such have to do with the Nazgul, but since the WC doesn't yet know it's the Nazgul, they themselves are only speculating. I don't see any evidence at all that Sauron will be reviving or reanimating dead bodies, and I especially don't see any evidence for a reanimated Thrain, Azog, or Bolg (not that you said any of those things). Plus, it wouldn't make any sense to give Sauron the power to raise dead bodies, because he didn't do it at all in LOTR, so why would he do it in TH when he is supposed to be weaker?


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jun 22 2013, 5:59am

Post #17 of 17 (87 views)
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Another thing [In reply to] Can't Post

Azog had to shove a damned metal claw thing in his arm and Bolg apparently had to patch himself up after Dwalin tore him to shreds. So if they are indeed "revived" in a sense than Sauron is doing a terrible job. Why would you want patchwork orcs when you can apparently pull orcs out of the mud?? Laugh

 
 

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