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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
should the hobbit have even been made into these films?
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jun 19 2013, 10:20pm

Post #51 of 91 (264 views)
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Steven Fry [In reply to] Can't Post

claimed that Jackson made him eat testicles for his role as the Master (link). No idea whether he was serious or joking.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jun 19 2013, 10:41pm

Post #52 of 91 (245 views)
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Question [In reply to] Can't Post

Have you never taken input from someone, been willing to do either your idea or their idea if it made sense to you, then went with your idea instead? How about theirs instead? Ever feel pressured to go with a different idea even though the decision was your responsibility or your right by contract? If you want the next job, you're darn toot'n you'll be cooperative to a point, but it's still your decision and your reputation on the line. C'mon now - it's not so black and white - is it?


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on Jun 19 2013, 10:48pm)


bborchar
Rohan


Jun 19 2013, 10:46pm

Post #53 of 91 (238 views)
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Not the same... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Have you never taken input from someone, been willing to do either your idea or their idea if it made sense to you, then went with your idea instead? How about theirs instead? Ever feel pressured to go with a different idea even though the decision was your responsibility or your right by contract? C'mon now - it's not so black and white - is it?


Which has nothing to do with whether WB forced PJ to do something with this movie. If he's the writer, producer, director and he even took a pay cut to do it, do you think he would have taken much pressure from WB to change the script. That's pretty black and white to me.


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JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jun 19 2013, 10:50pm

Post #54 of 91 (237 views)
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WB [In reply to] Can't Post

So may we understand that it is your position that WB is not the type to say what they want?


bborchar
Rohan


Jun 19 2013, 10:54pm

Post #55 of 91 (232 views)
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Nope... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So may we understand that it is your position that WB is not the type to say what they want?


Not in this situation, no. And there's nothing that says so to the contrary.


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Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 19 2013, 10:55pm

Post #56 of 91 (241 views)
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Follow the money. [In reply to] Can't Post

In the end, the people putting up the money pull the strings, and only independent directors who manage to finance their own films have the liberty to do everything exactly as they please. PJ is directing this film by contract; he does not own the rights, nor is he making it with his own money. While I think WB would be stupid to try to wrest creative control from Jackson, a studio routinely does provide "notes", including critiques and guidelines on rough cuts and has to give approval of the final cut of the film before it can be released. The studio always has input and influence on a film, no matter who directs it.

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



bborchar
Rohan


Jun 19 2013, 10:59pm

Post #57 of 91 (239 views)
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Okay... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In the end, the people putting up the money pull the strings, and only independent directors who manage to finance their own films have the liberty to do everything exactly as they please. PJ is directing this film by contract; he does not own the rights, nor is he making it with his own money. While I think WB would be stupid to try to wrest creative control from Jackson, a studio routinely does provide "notes", including critiques and guidelines on rough cuts and has to give approval of the final cut of the film before it can be released. The studio always has input and influence on a film, no matter who directs it.


Then what did WB touch?


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Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 19 2013, 11:15pm

Post #58 of 91 (235 views)
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That part is speculation, of course. [In reply to] Can't Post

The promotion is certainly very different in feel this time around, and there is a different tone to the movie. I speculate that this is the result of some combination of PJ's attempt at a more childlike tone, and WB's encouragement toward preferences for the demographic(s) they intend to reach. Or maybe they simply agree on everything. But unless one of the parties makes a public statement, we can only guess as to specifics. Until then, it is possible to see all the changes in tone as being simply PJ's preferences given full reign, or to see striking similarities with other films bankrolled by WB and to suspect their influence, or both. Until someone comes up with evidence either way, all are valid speculations. We may learn more from commentaries in the future.



Quote

Then what did WB touch?


One might just as well ask "What did Guillermo touch?". We don't know, but we can all guess and talk about those guesses.



Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



RosieLass
Valinor


Jun 19 2013, 11:18pm

Post #59 of 91 (241 views)
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Aww, c'mon! [In reply to] Can't Post

Rocky Mountain "Oysters" are quite a delicacy out here in the West! Evil

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bborchar
Rohan


Jun 19 2013, 11:25pm

Post #60 of 91 (228 views)
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Tone... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The promotion is certainly very different in feel this time around, and there is a different tone to the movie. I speculate that this is the result of some combination of PJ's attempt at a more childlike tone, and WB's encouragement toward preferences for the demographic(s) they intend to reach. Or maybe they simply agree on everything. But unless one of the parties makes a public statement, we can only guess as to specifics. Until then, it is possible to see all the changes in tone as being simply PJ's preferences given full reign, or to see striking similarities with other films bankrolled by WB and to suspect their influence, or both. Until someone comes up with evidence either way, all are valid speculations. We may learn more from commentaries in the future.



Quote

Then what did WB touch?


One might just as well ask "What did Guillermo touch?". We don't know, but we can all guess and talk about those guesses.



The change in tone of the movie can easily be attributed to the story itself- trying to bridge a child's book and adult literature is not easy, especially when the author himself mixed it up. But it's speculation either way, no one has "proof" that WB made him do something, nor does anyone have proof that they didn't. But it's very clear that PJ's team had the most control of the movie, because their roles were too great not to. But everyone wants to attribute "blame" right now...I don't, because I liked the movie, and I'm looking forward to the next one.


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Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 19 2013, 11:54pm

Post #61 of 91 (229 views)
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:-) [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I'm not interested in assigning blame either, and I liked the movie also though I didn't love it the way I love LOTR. But I wouldn't worry unduly over those who want to speculate in different directions; one never gets anywhere debating the rights and wrongs of mere guesswork, as long as it's clear that's what it is. Time alone will tell.

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Jun 19 2013, 11:55pm

Post #62 of 91 (241 views)
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You give a good sentiment [In reply to] Can't Post

However, I'm not sure I entirely agree, though I see what you are saying.
I don't know about the History of The Hobbit, so I can't comment on that, but I believe that the finished novel of The Hobbit is part of The Lord of the Rings universe, it just takes place during a different time, when things were lighter, and the only evil was the occasional goblin mischief. But from what I have read, Tolkien did tie The Hobbit to The Lord of the Rings, i.e. the Necromancer being Sauron. He apparently didn't go into much detail about that, thinking it would be too nightmarish for the children.

While The Hobbit would most certainly have been different if made before The Lord of the Rings films, the fact that the two are related, makes me glad that the same people worked on them. Look at the Harry Potter films, each movie had a different director and it shows. They're almost like completely different films from one another, when they're all supposed to be in the same story/universe.

I'm not too crazy about some of the changes Jackson has done either, like the cartoonish escape from Goblin Town, and the inclusion of Azog, and the made up characters, like Tauriel, Alfrid, and that one guy, and I'm nervous about Legolas. I love Legolas, but he wasn't in the Hobbit. Radagast, though I generally liked him, could have been portrayed better. As for the Dol Guldor subplot, technically it's canon, so that I don't mind.
I understand the disappointment that some have had with the films. There were some things that PJ could have done better. But compared to adaptations of other books, is The Hobbit really that bad?
(not directed at you, jimmfenn, that last line was for everyone, as is the following.)
Has anyone seen the 2011 The Three Musketeers film? It was awful, and didn't follow the book at all. The 1992 adaptation of Dracula starring Gary Oldman completely missed the point of the story. They turned it into a romance, when it's supposed to be a Gothic horror about a sadistic vampire. Not to mention the 1930 film Frankenstein, where the creature was made into a dumb and mindless person, when in the novel, he can talk and has feelings.
The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey, despite it's flaws, at least had things that were related to the novel. It wasn't turned into a romance, Bilbo wasn't made into a simpleton, it could've been so much worse.


(This post was edited by Ziggy Stardust on Jun 19 2013, 11:56pm)


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Jun 20 2013, 12:00am

Post #63 of 91 (233 views)
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"OK, you guys, if you really must insist on doing it then here are a few clues." [In reply to] Can't Post

I like this. After all, Tolkien did leave clues.


bborchar
Rohan


Jun 20 2013, 12:04am

Post #64 of 91 (218 views)
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I agree... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Well, I'm not interested in assigning blame either, and I liked the movie also though I didn't love it the way I love LOTR. But I wouldn't worry unduly over those who want to speculate in different directions; one never gets anywhere debating the rights and wrongs of mere guesswork, as long as it's clear that's what it is. Time alone will tell.


I feel the same way about the movies. I like LotR better, but then again, it's a better story. I like having a movie better than nothing at all, even with its flaws. But I enjoyed it so much that I saw it several times, and we own it, so I was able to get over them and enjoy it :)


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entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 20 2013, 2:34am

Post #65 of 91 (212 views)
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Peter had similar tussles with New Line [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember him or Philippa mentioning in the commentaries that they had to fend off worried executives on several occasions. They had Mark Ordesky on the ground, but he either wasn't convincing enough, or New Line was worried enough, to continue the pressure.

I think the difference is Peter et. al. were more successful in ignoring New Line than WB. WB is a MUCH larger, more experienced studio and I think they were able to impose their suggestions a little more successfully.


Yngwulff
Gondor


Jun 20 2013, 4:54am

Post #66 of 91 (193 views)
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Should have kept it to 2 films [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes it should have been made but two films. This would have made it possible to omit the flawed Azog filler materiel plot, curtail Radaghast's inclusion (although I liked his portrayal), and while including the White Council/Dol Guldur storyline lessen that as well. This would give more time to the Dwarves and Bilbo and Smaug ... whom the story is about ... while expanding upon the dwarven history backstory.

I have been hearing bad stuff about the Man of Steel and how they tried to cram too much into the film .... KISS principle ... same thing in PJ's case ... just follow the story and don't change/fix things that are not broken.


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
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(This post was edited by Yngwulff on Jun 20 2013, 4:58am)


dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 20 2013, 8:50am

Post #67 of 91 (200 views)
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Well, if it had been kept to two films.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... and no doubt they could have done a two-part adaptation, or a one-part - or a six-part, for that matter - they would then have had to decide which part of the book to leave out. I don't think there was any way they could have included everything in the book, given more time to the dwarves and Bilbo and expanded the history of the dwarves and story behind the journey to the Lonely Mountain all in two films. Cutting Azog, the White Council and Radagast from AUJ would have freed some time, for sure, but not enough for Beorn, Mirkwood, the spiders, the Elvenking's halls and the barrel escape.

Your reference to the Azog storyline - of which as yet we only know the beginning - as 'the flawed Azog filler material' implies that this was cobbled together merely to bring the first film up to length and I don't think that's true. I think it's pretty clear that they had to reshape Azog's story to create an ending for AUJ. If the film had ended with the barrel escape it would have ended at the point when the dwarves, and particularly Thorin, having resented Bilbo's presence all through, had come to realise how valuable he was - and when he also realised his own capabilities. When the end of film one was brought forward to the escape by eagle they had to create something that would give them that same upturn in the relationship between Bilbo and the dwarves. They used Azog to do it. If all they had needed was 'filler material' they had extra scenes at Hobbiton or Rivendell which they could have used, but neither would have contributed to the ending. Azog turned the escape from the goblins and wargs into a turning point for the relationship between Bilbo and the dwarves - an ending to the first phase of their story and a jumping-off point for the second. (And, by the way, also showing that at the heart of these movies is the story of Bilbo and the dwarves.)

Call me simple if you like, but I believe the decision to move up to three films was Peter Jackson's, just as he said. Behind it I suspect there were weeks of agonised sifting through all the footage they had and the scenes they wanted to fit in and realising that it couldn't be done in two. Two films would have meant cutting far more deeply than they wanted into the actual plot of The Hobbit. I'm really glad they didn't.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jun 20 2013, 12:04pm

Post #68 of 91 (180 views)
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Disagree here [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
they would then have had to decide which part of the book to leave out.



I think they could have done a two-part adaptation without having to leave out much from the book. IMO, there's no reason that a 300-page book warrants three 2-and-a-half hour films, and even with the Appendices stuff (as Tolkien wrote it) that does actually relate to TH, it could have been kept to two films and still not cut too much. Rankin-Bass' version ran under 80 minutes with only a few cuts, so I think the entire book could have been done justice in a single 150-minute film, and adding in the Gandalf side-plot would have fit into a two-film scheme easily with plenty of detail to spare. We just wouldn't have gotten all of the PJ-invented story-lines and characters, like Azog chasing Thorin, everything Radagast did, Tauriel, Alfrid, and High Fells/Nazgul tombs, which would have been fine by me.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Jun 20 2013, 12:05pm)


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jun 20 2013, 12:13pm

Post #69 of 91 (161 views)
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Yup, have to agree there... [In reply to] Can't Post

AUJ was less than 3 hours... with most of the invented storyline stuff cut there should have been room to take the journey up to Barrels within a film of equal length to FotR.


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Ż Victoria Monfort


(This post was edited by Eleniel on Jun 20 2013, 12:14pm)


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Jun 20 2013, 12:25pm

Post #70 of 91 (160 views)
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Perhaps [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
with most of the invented storyline stuff cut there should have been room to take the journey up to Barrels within a film of equal length to FotR.



But, I seriously doubt that enough could have been cut to anywhere near do justice to meeting and staying with Beorn, the journey through Mirkwood, the calamity with the spiders, being captured by the Elves and being imprisoned by the Elves. If they spent just 15 minutes on each of those, that's well over an hour right there (and I hope they spend more than 15 mins on some of those things). No, IMHO there's no way they could have spent as much time at Bag End, the Trolls, Rivendell, Goblin Town, Riddles in the Dark and Out of the Frying Pan, and *still* fit in all of the things up to the barrels without cutting, or severely passing over, all those things that were straight out of the book.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jun 20 2013, 12:37pm

Post #71 of 91 (160 views)
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Well, it will be interesting to see... [In reply to] Can't Post

how much time PJ does spend in Mirkwood once DoS is released. He did make that curious comment about the Barrels sequence happening "relatively early on" in DoS, which some people have taken to mean roughly about the first hour mark... Without extra invention for Tauriel and Azog etc in the Mirkwood plot, I would have thought that plenty of time to do the book justice.

(Btw, I was also including the Old Bilbo/Frodo sequence from AUJ along with the excess "invented" stuff for removal... )


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Ż Victoria Monfort


(This post was edited by Eleniel on Jun 20 2013, 12:38pm)


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Jun 20 2013, 6:04pm

Post #72 of 91 (134 views)
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Hmmm...personally I wouldn't mind additional "fan-fic" films [In reply to] Can't Post

so long as they're well made. Here's hoping for "The Ranger" in a few years featuring the adventures of young Aragorn!

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Jun 20 2013, 6:11pm

Post #73 of 91 (133 views)
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In which case you may be interested... [In reply to] Can't Post

to know I discovered recently that there's a project about the Fall of Fingolfin in production:

https://www.facebook.com/...Fingolfin?ref=stream

Much of the artwork is being created by Breogan, who also did some designs for "Born of Hope". You can see her artwork on DeviantArt...

http://breogan.deviantart.com/gallery/397699

(edited to add that Breogan is, of course, the artist who provided the wonderful illustrations for Voronwe the Faithful's book "Arda Reconstructed" Smile)


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Ż Victoria Monfort


(This post was edited by Eleniel on Jun 20 2013, 6:14pm)


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jun 20 2013, 6:15pm

Post #74 of 91 (134 views)
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She also did [In reply to] Can't Post

the illustrations for Arda Reconstructed.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jun 20 2013, 8:17pm

Post #75 of 91 (116 views)
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I really don't mind extending the story to include the White Council and the Necromancer... [In reply to] Can't Post

From a cinematic stand-point, I thought it was necessary to include the Dol Guldur subplot. I also don't mind including new characters in order to flesh out the world of Middle-earth. It is most of the unnecessary changes to the legendarium (far beyond mining the Appendices) that I find irksome and intrusive.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

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