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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Howard Shore hires external orchestrators for DOS instead of doing it himself
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TheHutt
Gondor


Jun 17 2013, 12:36pm

Post #1 of 36 (1956 views)
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     Howard Shore hires external orchestrators for DOS instead of doing it himself  

According to an article from German site Herr-der-ringe-film.de, Howard Shore will not continue doing both composing and orchestrating / conducting the score for "The Desolation of Smaug". To do that, he is looking for external specialists, so called "orchestrators" who adapt written music to the actual film edit. Clifford J. Tasner (orchestrator on Life of Pi, Harry Potter & The Deathly Hallows et al) has already been hired; there is also talk about hiring Conrad Pope as well who orchestrated many film scores, among others by John Williams, Danny Elfman et al.

What do you think about this? I somehow don't like the idea. Howard Shore is one of the few composers who wrote the score as well as orchestrated and conducted it. I would love to see him sticking to the high standards he had set for the LOTR trilogy. Using third-party orchestrators looks like cutting corners to me.

Source: http://www.herr-der-ringe-film.de/...ilme/news_107712.php

Russian LOTR & Hobbit Site: Henneth-Annun.ru


(This post was edited by TheHutt on Jun 17 2013, 12:37pm)


Magpie
Immortal


Jun 17 2013, 12:49pm

Post #2 of 36 (1062 views)
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     just fyi: Doug Adams address this recently [In reply to]  


Quote
Nothing big. Shore is using a couple of orchestrators on the score this time out. Clifford J. Tasner is confirmed, Conrad Pope is in discussions.

Shore used orchestrator Homer Denison on a regular basis for the first 15-or-so years of his career. From The Fly to Analyze This. He hasn't used orchestrators recently, but it's not at all unusual for composers on giant projects with sharp deadlines. Williams uses them all the time. Goldsmith did, too. It's actually quite rare for a film composer not to, in fact. Only Morricone leaps to mind -- and Herrmann back in the day.

Some composers depend on orchestrators to translate their unwieldy mock-ups to something a live human orchestra can actually play. This is not the case with Shore, of course. His sketches are detailed and essentially complete, so the orchestrators' job is perhaps best likened to copy work. This isn't to belittle the job; it's still a ton of work. But this will all be seamless behind-the-scenes stuff. It won't change the final result in any perceptible way. It's still all Shore's music.


http://www.musicoflotr.com/...ml#comment-931206551

Why does it not surprise me that someone wouldn't like this idea and thinks Shore isn't sticking to high standards. I mean, I just don't get this trend to jump to the worst case motivation for any action someone takes.


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Escapist
Gondor


Jun 17 2013, 12:50pm

Post #3 of 36 (960 views)
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     It seems like there have been questions about the music for a long time now. [In reply to]  

I remember at one point, discussion came up about full-on hiring some other group to do some of the music. I remember how much the boards blew up about that issue.

I don't know, maybe he has other things to do, maybe he has grown tired of it, maybe he has already done a lot of the music in the movie, maybe there are a lot of people sharing a common desire for that music and someone else wants their shot at it too?


dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 17 2013, 12:58pm

Post #4 of 36 (957 views)
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     Jumping to the worst-case motivation.... [In reply to]  

...seems to be routine around here, no matter what the issue. It becomes very wearing.


TheHutt
Gondor


Jun 17 2013, 1:07pm

Post #5 of 36 (907 views)
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     Well, he did set these standards with LOTR. [In reply to]  


In Reply To
Why does it not surprise me that someone wouldn't like this idea and thinks Shore isn't sticking to high standards.

Well, he did set them with LOTR. I like the idea of him being the mastermind between every nuance of the music, which has been subject of books by Doug Adams and many analyses by several enthusiasts.

I wonder if this level of quality would be still possible to maintain for such a score orchestrated by some hired professionals. It will probably still 10x better than your average Hans Zimmer score, but it won't be a 100% Shore.

PS: Morricone and Herrmann are not the worst people representing the trade.

Russian LOTR & Hobbit Site: Henneth-Annun.ru


The Grey Elf
Gondor


Jun 17 2013, 1:08pm

Post #6 of 36 (888 views)
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     I know, right? [In reply to]  

Whatever happened to giving someone the benefit of a doubt? Howard Shore deserves that and Magpie's post puts it all in perspective. Let's everybody own what they don't know about a situation before rushing to judgement.


bborchar
Rohan


Jun 17 2013, 1:34pm

Post #7 of 36 (848 views)
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     I think people are jumping to conclusions... [In reply to]  

...we don't know WHY he's doing it. Maybe his workload is too full...maybe he's got something else going on in his private life. It's not like he just stopped composing them...he's just having someone else orchestrate them. Let's give him a break. I had to once quit a job because I kept missing time, and I was accused of being lazy. The truth was that I was so sick I almost died and no doctor had diagnosed it. I'm not the only person to keep my private life private.


"Go on. Walk on. You must be destroyed."

"Good boy! That's the spirit! Bring my miserable line to an end. Up, up! Come, Scientist, destroy me! Destroy your creation! Come!"

~Frankenstein


Magpie
Immortal


Jun 17 2013, 2:26pm

Post #8 of 36 (819 views)
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     Again... [In reply to]  

"It seems like there have been questions about the music for a long time now. "

is such a well crafted bit of innuendo.

There has been beaucoup loads of *questions* and aspersions and accusations of all sorts about all aspects of The Hobbit movies and all people connected with them. I take less than 20% of them as having any knowledge of what they're talking about.

"I remember at one point, discussion came up about full-on hiring some other group to do some of the music. "

I will guess you are talking about Plan 9, sometimes credited as the members of that group, along with David Long who did some stuff with the Plan 9 folks in LOTR, although I don't know (off hand) if he has contributed to Hobbit music.

Plan 9 was hired to do the diegetic, non-score music of the movie. Shore was hired to do the score music. If this is the situation you were referring to, what is problematic about that? Be a bit specific with your criticisms so they can be addressed.

"I remember how much the boards blew up about that issue."

If you're talking about Plan 9, I don't remember any 'blowing up.' I don't follow The Hobbit board all that closely but the score interests me and I do follow pretty much all music threads pretty closely. I will counter your statement with my own perspective: the boards did not blow up. I can't speak about whether particular individuals blew up.

"I don't know, maybe he has other things to do, maybe he has grown tired of it,"

You're right. You don't know. But you seem comfortable guessing at all the things that would reflect most badly on another person with all that you don't know.

Look, I'll be really honest. It bugs me that people feel so comfortable looking at something and putting a negative spin on it from the get-go. Especially when the situation is one they really have no direct knowledge of. Especially when the craft involved is something they have no experience of. And especially when they are speaking about people I respect and have a good opinion of and who I think is not capable of the bad things they are being accused of.

But really, it wouldn't matter whether I liked the person or didn't much care for them. Speaking badly about people in public when we don't really know what the situation is doesn't reflect well on us as individuals. At least, that's how I walk in the world. I've pretty much had to accept that not everyone seems to think like that. It makes me sad and sometimes a bit annoyed. We are, or can be, better people than this.


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(This post was edited by Altaira on Jun 17 2013, 8:26pm)


Magpie
Immortal


Jun 17 2013, 2:28pm

Post #9 of 36 (796 views)
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     Occasionally.. [In reply to]  

I rise up from my state of weariness on this into strong annoyance.

and since my tongue is starting to hurt with all the biting, I will simply hit the post reply button.


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Magpie
Immortal


Jun 17 2013, 2:33pm

Post #10 of 36 (793 views)
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     okay... [In reply to]  

he set a standard of doing 125% rather than a damn good job.

Let's light into him if he cranks it back to a mere 101%.

I'm sure we all hold ourselves to these very high standards and fully expect to be called on it when we let some of our own extreme expectations for personal perfection fall a little here and there. Sure, most of those people calling us out might not have any clue what is going on... but that's how this world works.

Are you worried you won't get your money's worth when you buy that ticket?


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Shagrat
Gondor

Jun 17 2013, 2:39pm

Post #11 of 36 (776 views)
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     Why worry? [In reply to]  

The stresses of the AUJ post-production (which seems to have resulted in a lot of last-minute musical changes) means this may well turn out to be for the best, if Shore can concentrate on writing and they can streamline the process. I can't see it being a problem given the renowned meticulousness of Shore's notes.


Magpie
Immortal


Jun 17 2013, 2:43pm

Post #12 of 36 (782 views)
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     this is one of the big problems I have with conversations tilted in the direction this one started on [In reply to]  

When I see people calling out for what they want from other people with no consideration about what the other person's situation may be, it really bothers me.


For every situation where we wonder why someone isn't doing something we thought they would do or think they should do or wish they would do... we should hold off on judgement -- especially in terms of negative judgement --until we get some facts.

It's one thing to express disappointment in situations like this. It's another to attribute one's disappointment to another person acting badly or irresponsibly when one doesn't really know what is going on and doesn't understand the industry (of film scoring).


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(This post was edited by Magpie on Jun 17 2013, 2:50pm)


Magpie
Immortal


Jun 17 2013, 2:50pm

Post #13 of 36 (761 views)
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     "meticulousness of Shore's notes" [In reply to]  

Why, Shagrat. You just might have read what Doug said! :-)

(by the way... you replied to me, perhaps because my post was last in the flat mode display... but I think you meant to reply to the original post, correct?)

Because your comment about "meticulousness of Shore's notes" echoed what Doug said (requoted from the larger comment in another post in this thread.)


Quote
Some composers depend on orchestrators to translate their unwieldy mock-ups to something a live human orchestra can actually play. This is not the case with Shore, of course.

His sketches are detailed and essentially complete, so the orchestrators' job is perhaps best likened to copy work.

This isn't to belittle the job; it's still a ton of work. But this will all be seamless behind-the-scenes stuff.

It won't change the final result in any perceptible way.

It's still all Shore's music.


emphasis mine

Thanks for your confidence that a good composer, beloved by many, will do the same exemplary job he's always done with The Hobbit score.


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sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Jun 17 2013, 3:05pm

Post #14 of 36 (740 views)
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     I don't think [In reply to]  

it's necessarily irresponsible to question this move given all the concerns that came up with the AUJ score, deservedly or not. And your post concerning the Doug Adams quote cleared everything up quite nicely. Anyone who's not as well versed in the creation of a music score might easily be alarmed by such a departure, and this is the exact forum for such discusions to take place.


(This post was edited by Altaira on Jun 17 2013, 4:56pm)


Bombadil
Half-elven


Jun 17 2013, 3:15pm

Post #15 of 36 (739 views)
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     Agreed, Magpie... [In reply to]  

Maybe Howard needs some specilists to get things right...
Example, he put a variety of Obscure instruments in The Rohan theme,
and Bomby is thinking the Music of Laketown
should be quite exotic and ancient
Eastern Europe feeling...
Nothing is a "One MAN Show"
anymore.


Magpie
Immortal


Jun 17 2013, 3:27pm

Post #16 of 36 (716 views)
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     I will stand by what I said [In reply to]  

the OP continued to question things with a negative slant even after the Adams quote.

And this is a trend I see in lots of places that highly displeases me. 98% of the time I roll my eyes and walk away. Sometimes I won't.

Shore is someone I admire, I met, and grew to admire more. People can choose their words carefully and they won't get responses like mine. Take some responsibility for what you write and how you write or expect people to call you on it.

But if want to write inflammatory posts, you can't then jump on people stepping up to counter them.

And with that, I will give this up to wherever the people most determined to take it will take it.


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Elenorflower
Gondor


Jun 17 2013, 3:53pm

Post #17 of 36 (692 views)
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     I personally think you have every right [In reply to]  

to ask questions about things that concern you.


(This post was edited by Altaira on Jun 17 2013, 4:57pm)


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 17 2013, 3:55pm

Post #18 of 36 (670 views)
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     Great point, Bombadil [In reply to]  

It's possible that Howard Shore reached out to some specialists for some of the music, to make sure certain themes have a different voice.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Jun 17 2013, 3:57pm

Post #19 of 36 (687 views)
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     *mods up* [In reply to]  


In Reply To

You're right. You don't know. But you seem comfortable guessing at all the things that would reflect most badly on another person with all that you don't know.

Look, I'll be really honest. It bugs me that people feel so comfortable looking at something and putting a negative spin on it from the get-go. Especially when the situation is one they really have no direct knowledge of. Especially when the craft involved is something they have no experience of. And especially when they are speaking about people I respect and have a good opinion of and who I think is not capable of the bad things they are being accused of.

But really, it wouldn't matter whether I liked the person or didn't much care for them. Speaking badly about people in public when we don't really know what the situation is doesn't reflect well on us as individuals. At least, that's how I walk in the world. I've pretty much had to accept that not everyone seems to think like that. It makes me sad and sometimes a bit annoyed. We are, or can be, better people than this.



Thanks, Magpie. That was nicely written. If everyone here took this to heart, this board would be a friendlier and more pleasant place to play.

It's lovely to see you involved in a music thread, as always!


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Jun 17 2013, 4:08pm

Post #20 of 36 (661 views)
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     All i was saying is that [In reply to]  

i didn't find what the op and others said all that inflammatory, and i must admit, the same concerns popped into my head when i first read the post. But the ever-dependable Doug Adams' quote took care of that for me. I agree with much of what you said, though. I just always love it when Howard Shore's scores come up as a topic on these boards, and what you and others bring to the discussion, and just thought that the op's concerns, though possibly overstated, were valid-- no one wants anything less than HS's typical greatness when it comes to these scores.


Shagrat
Gondor

Jun 17 2013, 4:32pm

Post #21 of 36 (637 views)
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     Yes Magpie [In reply to]  

Sorry about that. I often just reply to the last post without thinking!


Aragorn the Elfstone
Grey Havens


Jun 17 2013, 4:44pm

Post #22 of 36 (653 views)
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     Actually, Plan 9 wrote the 'Misty Mountains' tune... [In reply to]  

...which, I know, caused a bit of an uproar on some music boards I frequent. Shore used the theme as the basis for the orchestral music from the first teaser trailer, and ended up (as we know) incorporating it into the full film score. I recall some people being a little shocked, because it sounded so fundamentally Shore.

Personally, I think you can hardly fault Shore for wanting to incorporate the melody into the score, given the importance of the Misty Mountains song to the dwarves' characters, and his renditions of the theme are wonderfully reflective of his own musical style.

"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence


(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Jun 17 2013, 4:45pm)


The Grey Elf
Gondor


Jun 17 2013, 4:44pm

Post #23 of 36 (643 views)
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     Inflammatory? No. Accusative? Yes, rather. [In reply to]  

As though HS were somehow shirking his responsibilities. This may simply have been an unfortunate choice of words for the title on the OP's part. Active negativism is more about presumption and criticism and less about finding answers. It has created or taken hostage many a thread on this board for a while now. And some of us feel compelled to express our aggravation with that.


Altaira
Superuser / Moderator


Jun 17 2013, 4:59pm

Post #24 of 36 (619 views)
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     Personal comments edited out of this sub-thread [In reply to]  

Please avoid personal comments about people in this sub-thread. The entire sub-thread will be deleted if personal comments continue.


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase





deskp
Lorien

Jun 17 2013, 5:41pm

Post #25 of 36 (576 views)
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     we wont know [In reply to]  

the problem about fans knowing about cahnges is they have soemthing to blame it on.

For example if Del toro directed the movie, fans would blame him for everything wrong even if it was the exact movie PJ made.

I for example think the new ccostume designer makes some off choises, but whsoe to say if it would have been better with the old one or not.

Shore giving a small amount of the "control" over to someone else will propably be some peoples "excuse" for why they don't like DOS score.

I think part of AUS's score was a little bland and forgettable, maybe it will be better this time around?

"Change my dear, and it seems not a moment too soon"

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