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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Iridescent Blue Butterflies

DwellerInDale
Rohan


Jun 17 2013, 4:04am

Post #1 of 23 (1000 views)
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Iridescent Blue Butterflies Can't Post

A few fans may be a bit upset about the change in color of the Mirkwood butterflies, from black to iridescent blue. In one of the threads below, people knowledgeable about digital video technology have explained how difficult it is to create true blacks and to render 3-dimensional black objects in CGI.

In this thread I wanted to point out that iridescent blue butterflies do exist. They are called "Morpho" butterflies, and they mostly occur in the tropics. The attached picture shows what a flock of them look like. The interesting thing about them is that their wings have no blue color pigment. The iridescent blue is made completely by the structure of their wing scales, which causes constructive and destructive interference of light waves. The link leads to a video that starts at the butterfly's wing and goes in with an electron microscope to show the structure of the scales.

Link

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.





Attachments: morpho_butterflies.jpg (17.3 KB)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Jun 17 2013, 5:16am

Post #2 of 23 (473 views)
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Doen't bother me. I am more interested in them needing to make the Blue of Gandalf's hat a touch more consistantly obvious. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
A few fans may be a bit upset about the change in color of the Mirkwood butterflies, from black to iridescent blue. In one of the threads below, people knowledgeable about digital video technology have explained how difficult it is to create true blacks and to render 3-dimensional black objects in CGI.

In this thread I wanted to point out that iridescent blue butterflies do exist. They are called "Morpho" butterflies, and they mostly occur in the tropics. The attached picture shows what a flock of them look like. The interesting thing about them is that their wings have no blue color pigment. The iridescent blue is made completely by the structure of their wing scales, which causes constructive and destructive interference of light waves. The link leads to a video that starts at the butterfly's wing and goes in with an electron microscope to show the structure of the scales.

Link


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Old Toby
Gondor


Jun 17 2013, 5:21am

Post #3 of 23 (463 views)
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I love the iridescent blue butterflies! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think black ones would be just...creepy. I don't care if it IS canon. (Of course here in the tropics we have black moths the size of small airplanes, which, while harmless, are nevertheless startling in a negative way when you accidentally run into one of them.) So yeah, I'll take the blue butterflys anyday thanks.

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


Thoromir
Rivendell


Jun 17 2013, 5:25am

Post #4 of 23 (444 views)
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Me too. [In reply to] Can't Post

And I think it is a good decision.
Now you have the dark and creepy forest on the one hand and the beautiful and magical view above the tree topsSmile



Súlimë
Rivendell


Jun 17 2013, 7:18am

Post #5 of 23 (413 views)
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I like the butterflies [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm really looking forward to that scene -- I do hope that they will give it enough importance, that everything is so dark and dreary in Mirkwood, and Bilbo climbs the tree and suddenly there are these magical butterflies


Thoromir
Rivendell


Jun 17 2013, 7:27am

Post #6 of 23 (392 views)
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I can't seem to edit my previous post.. [In reply to] Can't Post

I want to add that (because of this decision) there will be a bigger contrast between the two (under the tree tops and above the tree tops). When you read the book you already get that sense of contrast, but when you are using colors to strenghten this contrast..well, I guess the impact of the scene will be bigger. So I kinda like the idea of the bright blue butterflies.



Yngwulff
Gondor


Jun 17 2013, 7:53am

Post #7 of 23 (400 views)
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In the book [In reply to] Can't Post

Didn't JRRT say they were some offshoot of the purple emperors?


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Thoromir
Rivendell


Jun 17 2013, 9:23am

Post #8 of 23 (361 views)
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Yes he did [In reply to] Can't Post

And he also mentions 'black'. Plus in my copy there are Alan Lee paintings included and one of them shows blackish butterflies.



Glorfindela
Valinor


Jun 17 2013, 10:36am

Post #9 of 23 (339 views)
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Well, if they are a variant form of Purple Emperor [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder if we will see them 'attacking' our friends? Some males of butterfly species, particularly the larger ones living in the tropics, are very territorial and do attack anything that moves. (Ridiculous that such fragile creatures should attack a large critter like a human being!)

I believe the Purple Emperor is one such species that does this in northern Europe. Shocked

Thanks for the link, by the way. There are also dragonflies in the UK – and I'm sure elsewhere in the world – that can look black in some light, and purple or even black in other light…


(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Jun 17 2013, 10:40am)


namarie
Rohan


Jun 17 2013, 11:01am

Post #10 of 23 (320 views)
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I love the blue butterflies [In reply to] Can't Post

so no problem for me there.

I think the contrast between the color of the leaves and the color of the butterflies is beautiful.
I don't know if the black color on the butterflies would've had the same effect.


"The world is not in your books and maps. It's out there!"

"Such is the nature of evil. In time all foul things come forth."


The Grey Elf
Gondor


Jun 17 2013, 3:13pm

Post #11 of 23 (251 views)
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Bending light waves to make blue [In reply to] Can't Post

Is seen in other creatures as well. I'm thinking in particular of the North American blue jay, a stunning blue bird. And i've seen iridescent blue butterflies in real life -- they are my favorite butterfly so I am very pleased about the change from the book and looking forward to seeing them on the big screen. Now this is where 3D would really be glorious!!

Thanks for posting this info!


(This post was edited by The Grey Elf on Jun 17 2013, 3:15pm)


SkaldOfTheNorse
Bree


Jun 17 2013, 4:08pm

Post #12 of 23 (232 views)
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So much of everything has been changed in the movies to the book... [In reply to] Can't Post

And I accept most of them because in the end it's more about did I enjoy the movie than how much of it differs from the book.
So to me the color of the butterflies being blue is fine. I for one am glad they kept the scene in itself of bilbo getting out of the gloomy forest below and still seeing that the sun is shining on top (i.e. giving him new hope).
Besides the possible difficulty in technically rendering black 3d objects (mind you i am not an expert), it is also about the lighting of the setting/rising sun (red/orange/yellow hue) and the composition of the whole frame. So I leave that to the experts.

Skald Smile


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 17 2013, 5:30pm

Post #13 of 23 (204 views)
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Just FYI [In reply to] Can't Post

we have a 10-minute window to edit posts, so that's probably why you can't edit your first post. We do that because someone might reply to your original post, and if you can edit it later, it impacts all the subsequent replies.

If you're ever in a situation where you need to edit an earlier post, just contact an Admin and we can do it for you.


Thoromir
Rivendell


Jun 17 2013, 5:35pm

Post #14 of 23 (187 views)
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Ok, thanks entmaiden ;) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 



bborchar
Rohan


Jun 17 2013, 6:43pm

Post #15 of 23 (172 views)
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They have some of those at the conservatory here... [In reply to] Can't Post

...like real alive ones :) There's a butterfly room, with several different species, and that's one of them. They are absolutely gorgeous.

I don't really care what the color of the butterfly is, at least it's there.


"Go on. Walk on. You must be destroyed."

"Good boy! That's the spirit! Bring my miserable line to an end. Up, up! Come, Scientist, destroy me! Destroy your creation! Come!"

~Frankenstein


Gandy
Bree

Jun 17 2013, 7:03pm

Post #16 of 23 (159 views)
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Potential [In reply to] Can't Post

Being upset about the extreme roller coastering of so many scenes by Jackson, I dearly dearly pray that he let's this single scene of all scenes to take its time, stop the roller coaster, and uplift the viewers' emotions like no other scene in this trilogy. This has so much potential for beauty visually and with Shore's heavenly nature chorals fluttering along with the butterflies. The contrast with Mirkwood and orcs writes itself.

It can be incredible. If it is a brief little "Hey that's nice. Some pretty butterflies" 5 second shot followed by Bilbo slipping and tumbling down onto dwarves who then grumble comedically, I quit.


Na Vedui
Rohan


Jun 17 2013, 7:15pm

Post #17 of 23 (157 views)
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Video [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for that video link - very interesting.


malickfan
Gondor


Jun 17 2013, 7:21pm

Post #18 of 23 (169 views)
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Very glad they kept the scene in, but the change in colour seems like such a small pointless thing to change [In reply to] Can't Post

Even with the possible technical difficulties of rendering the butterflies in black, this change seems a little pointless and rather annoying to me-surely much more effort was put into the Rock 'Em-Sock 'Em Stone Gaints sequence-also changed from the book, so if PJ and co changed things just to be easier on themselves I'm a little dissapointed..as for blue over black what possible effect could this have on improving the storyline? At least the Gaints added a little more drama and action to a somewhat saggy film.

This is not a very interesting signature is it?


bborchar
Rohan


Jun 17 2013, 7:35pm

Post #19 of 23 (167 views)
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Because... [In reply to] Can't Post

...black butterflies would be hard to see. That's pretty much the only reason. You see something black fluttering on-screen, it could be a bat or whatever other evil thing lives in that forest. Making them blue makes them not only look like butterflies, but also makes them look less evil.


"Go on. Walk on. You must be destroyed."

"Good boy! That's the spirit! Bring my miserable line to an end. Up, up! Come, Scientist, destroy me! Destroy your creation! Come!"

~Frankenstein


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 17 2013, 7:36pm

Post #20 of 23 (168 views)
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So even if the technical difficulties can't be resolved, [In reply to] Can't Post

You still want the filmmakers to keep the black color? Just trying to understand what you're saying.


malickfan
Gondor


Jun 17 2013, 7:55pm

Post #21 of 23 (163 views)
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Well yeah I'd prefer...I just liked in The book how dark and mysterious everything seemed in Mirkwood [In reply to] Can't Post

 

This is not a very interesting signature is it?


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jun 18 2013, 2:11am

Post #22 of 23 (116 views)
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Changing the color doesn't bother me [In reply to] Can't Post

its only a color, now if they alter Bilbo climbing to the top of the trees and seeing them? Then I have a problem. but just changing a color?... Nope. Blue or Black, it works for me, as long as its Bilbo climbing to the top of the trees to see them. color is the least of my worries.


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Jun 19 2013, 2:22am

Post #23 of 23 (77 views)
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3D [In reply to] Can't Post

Black is extremely hard to render in 3D. This is one of the reasons for the change i'm sure. You just can't render a black object like that in 3D easily and have it look right.

Thank you for your questions, now go sod off and do something useful - Martin Freeman Twitter chat 3/1/13

 
 

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