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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Lord of the Rings:
Why so much hate for Bakshi's LotR?
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Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


Jun 15 2013, 7:51am

Post #1 of 30 (855 views)
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Why so much hate for Bakshi's LotR? Can't Post

I really don't get why people hate this film so much. Sure, it had it's faults (Brown Riders, that thing that was meant to be the Balrog, etc), but on the whole I felt it captured the spirit of the book and it was *certainly* more faithful to the source material than PJ ever was. John Hurt's Aragorn is the definitive version of the character in my eyes.

But perhaps I'm missing something. I must confess that I detest the Rankin/Bass versions with a passion, though that's only my opinion.

Aside from some of the visuals, what did you dislike about this film?

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."-Gandalf

(This post was edited by Radagast-Aiwendil on Jun 15 2013, 7:52am)


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 15 2013, 3:26pm

Post #2 of 30 (537 views)
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Haven't seen it since I was a child [In reply to] Can't Post

But I do remember liking it a lot. It's too bad part two never came to fruition.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




JWPlatt
Grey Havens


Jun 15 2013, 4:13pm

Post #3 of 30 (547 views)
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Hate [In reply to] Can't Post

I've never seen hate for it until I saw it in this thread title. So you're really offering a loaded question, or leading the witness with a prejudiced question.

There was obvious disappointment that it was half-baked in the sense they didn't commit to the full story, completing only half. That was my only complaint.


Magpie
Immortal


Jun 15 2013, 4:49pm

Post #4 of 30 (525 views)
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Where are you seeing this hate? [In reply to] Can't Post

Although, I guess today we'd be hard pressed to find anything that someone, somewhere didn't hate.

But I see this kind of thread a lot - something that makes a general statement about 'so much' or 'so many people' but I'm not ever sure where the numbers are coming from.

And here on the LOTR board, I've never seen anything that received "so much hate". We tend to be pretty balanced in our opinions. Some like, some don't, some like a lot, some really not so much... The numbers fluctuate up and down in balance for any particular topic but most people are pretty moderated in their tone and even most of those that really don't like something rarely go for 'hate.'

I don't think I can remember one conversation on the LOTR boards where there was anything I could describe as 'so much hate' (in the last 5 or 6 years anyhow... I can't speak so well for the earlier years).

Perhaps the conversation could get expanded into what people both liked and disliked (rather than only the disliked part).

I'm glad you enjoyed. I have heard lots of people say they did, too.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
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jimmyfenn
Rohan


Jun 15 2013, 4:59pm

Post #5 of 30 (505 views)
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LOVE IT [In reply to] Can't Post

i have so much respect for that film , its adaption, its actors,the innovative animation and general feeling is so spot on for tolkien, i dont even mind the balrog, he is probably m ore creepy beauce of the weird design., treebeard on the other hand!

jackson has taken so much from that film.

i even own an original production cel of the wraiths attacking merry scene, its superb. and i can confirm the wraiths are definitely black.

across the internet a simple search will find a lot of ridicule for it, which is unfair, Torn even put some facts up the other day, one was that it even made a profit at the box office lol id love him to make the other part.

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 15 2013, 5:08pm

Post #6 of 30 (519 views)
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Well, I'm not a fan. [In reply to] Can't Post

I felt there were a lot of good intentions, but a lot of them failed quite badly in the character design and execution. I liked the idea of having much of the dialogue straight from the book but I didn't like how it was strung together without transition, so that it felt like a disjointed version of "Tolkien's Greatest Hits". Some of the lines came out of nowhere and connected with nothing. It really didn't tell the story smoothly at all, and if I hadn't been so familiar with the book I think I would have been very confused in several places.

I guess you'd say my reaction was "very mixed".

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Escapist
Gondor


Jun 15 2013, 5:08pm

Post #7 of 30 (531 views)
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Since you asked (don't read if you don't want to know!) warning: criticism [In reply to] Can't Post

In my case, I think it was a case of being to young to appreciate it. When I saw the previews, it was so dark and depressing looking that I had no interest in seeing it with my dad when he asked. It made me dislike the whole Tolkien / ME for some time until I became a little older (like middle-school aged). I was stuck on unicorns at the time and in love with "The Last Unicorn" instead.

Looking at it now, I can respect it more. I had a friend in high school who really loved it and when I watched it with him, it didn't bother me at all. But, unlike Jackson's movies, we both agreed that it was something along the lines of "the best that can be expected for a fantasy genre cartoon about an obscure book that's kinda old".


Bellerock
Rivendell

Jun 15 2013, 6:26pm

Post #8 of 30 (498 views)
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Rather dull [In reply to] Can't Post

While I certainly don't "hate" Bakshi's version, I don't particularly love it either. To me it appears rather dull, and I mean that literally. There doesn't seem to be much color or life in the film, and, for me, there was no magic. No sense of being swept away into grand adventures or into another world. Just some interesting techniques and a disjointed story. That's my take anyway.


sevilodorf
Gondor


Jun 15 2013, 8:20pm

Post #9 of 30 (500 views)
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That's just it.... the visuals [In reply to] Can't Post

The script itself is not bad....not the best (but then there are parts of PJ's interpretation that I don't love) but the script by Peter Beagle does a fair job of condensing a long book into a two part (short... not three hour marathons that we have now) plan. At one of the One Ring Conventions Beagle talked about the problems he had with the experience.

As has been said... they didn't get it finished and that really disappointed me in 1978.... though I disliked the visuals from the beginning.

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com





malickfan
Gondor


Jun 16 2013, 12:03am

Post #10 of 30 (474 views)
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I really like it [In reply to] Can't Post

As you say It captures the sprirt of the book very well, and yes John Hurt is A great Aragorn, I gnerally liked the designs (aprt from the Orcs) and thought rotoscoping was a interesting idea. My only real complaint was the somewhat erractc pacing and dark lighting towards the end, but I would have loved to see Bakshi conclude his version. I actually think Tolkien's books are more suited to hand-drawn animation than live action (for instance how exaclty would you do Ainulindalë in live action?).

This is not a very interesting signature is it?


Soundchaser
The Shire

Jun 16 2013, 2:29am

Post #11 of 30 (480 views)
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OK, I'll say it.. [In reply to] Can't Post

I hate this movie. Went and saw it when it first came out after first reading the books about a year earlier. I was 15 or 16, went with my older sister (who turned me on to Tolkein) and 2 or 3 other friends/fans. We were all extremely disappointed in it and I've tried watching it again once but am simply repulsed by it. Same goes for the Rankin/Bass production with that absolutely horrible warbling/singing! Who was that guy anyway? And how did he get that job? I basically hated everything about it.
Don't have any more to add except maybe this: yeeeeeccchhhhhh!


RachellovesLOTR
Rivendell

Jun 16 2013, 3:00am

Post #12 of 30 (462 views)
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Because: [In reply to] Can't Post

First off, these are only my opinions for not liking it. If others like this adaption, that's their choice. So, no debating here.

I would have gotten into Bakshi's version but I saw the trailer to it on YouTube, and it seems to me that he didn't get the adaption of the hobbits right. His hobbit have straight hair when Tolkien made it clear that hobbits have curly hair. Also, just by seeing a clip of Sam in his version I could tell that he made Sam appear dumb. Sam is simple minded, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's full on stupid. Anyone who likes The Two Towers would know how smart he is and how he becomes both physically and mentally stronger in The Return of the King.

But, it's not only him not getting the portrayal of the hobbits right that's an issue to me. Bakshi stopped in the middle of the story in his adaption, leaving others wanting more for a long time.

I'm not saying Peter's adaptions are exact perfection. But they certainly fare better with me and I'd rather see those in the long run.

Again, I'm not trying to cram my views on this down anyone's throat. Just saying what I feel.


Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien


Jun 16 2013, 6:57am

Post #13 of 30 (457 views)
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I wouldn't say I hate it [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm just not a big fan of it and find it very flawed. I re-watched it recently and while it was better than I remembered, I still have a lot of issues with it.

The rotoscoping looks awkward and ugly. The Balrog looks ridiculous. The alternating Saruman/Aruman name is distracting (no one caught this in editing?). Aragorn has no pants. Boromir is a Viking for some reason. Elrond doesn't look remotely Elvish. There's that trippy Ford of Bruinen scene where the Black Riders kind of stare at Frodo interminably and ride around in the mist. The story stops in the middle (not Bakshi's fault but still annoying).

I think you and I have discussed this before. I have the opposite reaction. I dislike Bakshi's film and love the Rankin/Bass Hobbit. Overall, I think it comes down to whether a movie matches your vision of a book and your personal sensibilities. I found Bakshi's movie to be a well-meaning but muddled mess. It didn't match my vision of LOTR. Whereas the R/B Hobbit was (to me) very charming and fairy tale-like with catchy songs and a unique design sense. It captured the feel of the book for me and was a big influence on my childhood.


(This post was edited by Fredeghar Wayfarer on Jun 16 2013, 7:07am)


Starling
Half-elven


Jun 16 2013, 8:06am

Post #14 of 30 (475 views)
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Aragorn has no pants? [In reply to] Can't Post

Aragorn needs no pants?
Sounds like some sorts of pants mischief to me. Laugh


dik-dik
Lorien


Jun 16 2013, 12:33pm

Post #15 of 30 (452 views)
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I can't say I *disliked* anything about Bakshi's LotR... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I actually love that film. :) What I didn't care for is:
- the graphics and portrayals you mention (Orthanc, Weathertop, Moria, some of the Elves, Treebeard, Aragorn, Boromir, Theoden looked kindof cliched-cartoony too).
- the long and confusing Nazgul scene at Bruinen. And the wraiths magically appearing in the hobbits' room in Bree - apparating belongs to HP. Tongue
- the pronunciation of some names... Aenduin, Aruman (I'm aware of the reasoning behind it which I've read somewhere, but still), Sawron, Grime-a, Baylin, Seleborn, 'Minus' Tirith, Eydoras, Ugg-luck.
- the rushed feeling (cut from Dimrill Dale to Lothlorien, most of TTT). Not the director's fault, I know.
- the vocals for the lament for Mithrandir - sounds like first graders to me instead of Elves Crazy

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


Domien
Registered User

Jun 16 2013, 4:49pm

Post #16 of 30 (438 views)
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Warning: potentially overly harsh criticism [In reply to] Can't Post

Strangely enough, usually I tend to be the guy who loves movies other people don't like and I often find myself defending things, but in this case, for once, I'm the hater. Incoherent hateful rambling coming up:

I actually really, REALLY despise the Bakshi version of LOTR. There are so many reasons why I think that film is horrible, lazy and stupid, I don't know where to start. The worst of it is the storytelling. They tried to put half of the entire story into one 2 hour film. As a result, it's very confusing and, to me at least, feels completely soulless and devoid of any character or personality whatsoever. On top of that, almost everything looks stupid, with a few exceptions. Gandalf, Gollum and the Nazgul looked good - everything else looked stupid, with Boromir, Legolas and the Balrog as the worst examples. And Sam! Sam resembles a potato, more than he does a hobbit. They actually turn Saruman into Aruman to avoid confusion with Sauron, but then they keep switching around between the names Saruman and Aruman, making it even more confusing! There was no sense of nature, no sense of adventure, no sense of place... The rotoscoping was done so badly you could actually see through it at some points and see the original live-action footage beneath! It's so sloppy, so lazy! Gandalf is shown on the poster shooting laser rays from his index finger! The music was wrong, the mood was wrong... Rivendell looked like a Chinese palace... There was no atmosphere... It just... Ugh. I can't go on :)

Pardon my rant, it just felt good to have that off my chest:)

Anyway. that's just the way I feel about it of course, if you like it I'm sure you see something in it I'm just not capable of seeing. :)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 16 2013, 6:53pm

Post #17 of 30 (418 views)
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Shhhhh! [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't say that, or someone will post the picture again! Shocked


Quote
Aragorn needs no pants? Sounds like some sorts of pants mischief to me.



Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zâram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nâla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dűm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Jim
Rivendell


Jun 16 2013, 11:22pm

Post #18 of 30 (420 views)
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Really? [In reply to] Can't Post

More faithful than PJ's version?? You're kidding right? The characters themselves were ridiculous, Sam, Saruman and his voice. Boromir, the Balrog...I could go on. For its time it was a reasonable adaption but it doesn't compare to PJ's.


(This post was edited by Jim on Jun 16 2013, 11:28pm)


RachellovesLOTR
Rivendell

Jun 17 2013, 12:39am

Post #19 of 30 (419 views)
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I agree completely [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 17 2013, 1:33pm

Post #20 of 30 (374 views)
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Actually... [In reply to] Can't Post

...this board has conducted a chapter by chapter discussion of the film.

Here's an example:

http://newboards.theonering.net/...cgi?post=25865#25865

A search should reveal others.

******************************************
Pippin: "When you guys fall in the forest, does it make a sound?"
Bregalad: "Are you kidding? Scott fell last week and he hasn't shut up about it since!"


weaver
Half-elven


Jun 17 2013, 4:27pm

Post #21 of 30 (399 views)
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here's how Bakshi's script looks with Jackson's visuals... [In reply to] Can't Post

For any folks interested, here's a chance to see both Bakshi and Jackson together....

A few years ago I stumbled across this most excellent fan labor of love -- a 16 part version of Bakshi's LOTR on YouTube that matched up the Bakshi audio track with Jackson's visuals. Here's a link to the first installment: Fan Cut Bakshi/Jackson, Part 1

You can get to all 16 parts from the first video clip; I also posted them all on TORn, if you do a search for "When Peter Met Ralph" you can also access the clips that way-- the link here will take you to the first one of those discussions.





Weaver



Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


Jun 17 2013, 4:35pm

Post #22 of 30 (356 views)
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Perhaps I should explain what I meant by the use of the word "faithful" [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, as far as the characters and the visuals go you are right, they are in some cases god awful. But, I was using the word "faithful" in relation to the story itself, which is undeniably closer to Tolkien's book than Jackson's version. Aside from the Aruman rubbish and the incomplete nature of the adaptation, what's there of the story is very accurate on the whole: Frodo is stabbed by an Orc as in the book, not by a cave troll. Gandalf is the one who discovers the password to open the gates of Moria as in the book, not Frodo. Boromir is killed by a group of opponents, instead of the non-canon Lurtz, etc. At least in this adaptation Aragorn doesn't "die" by falling over a cliff in a made up Warg-attack scene, and at least Wizards aren't hurling each other around Orthanc as if they were in The Matrix.

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."-Gandalf


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


Jun 17 2013, 4:37pm

Post #23 of 30 (358 views)
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I'll say the same to you as I said to Jim [In reply to] Can't Post

"Yes, as far as the characters and the visuals go you are right, they are in some cases god awful. But, I was using the word "faithful" in relation to the story itself, which is undeniably closer to Tolkien's book than Jackson's version. Aside from the Aruman rubbish and the incomplete nature of the adaptation, what's there of the story is very accurate on the whole: Frodo is stabbed by an Orc as in the book, not by a cave troll. Gandalf is the one who discovers the password to open the gates of Moria as in the book, not Frodo. Boromir is killed by a group of opponents, instead of the non-canon Lurtz, etc. At least in this adaptation Aragorn doesn't "die" by falling over a cliff in a made up Warg-attack scene, and at least Wizards aren't hurling each other around Orthanc as if they were in The Matrix."

Cheers

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."-Gandalf


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Jun 18 2013, 12:40am

Post #24 of 30 (335 views)
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Not a bad adaptation [In reply to] Can't Post

I even own the DVD. However, it does have some flaws, and Bakshi did some things I wish he did differently. But no, I don't hate it. I only wish he didn't make Grima look like a grubby little man (I've always pictured a tall, pale man, with black hair and heavy-lidded eyeshe, as he was described in the novel.) And I wish the elves had pointy ears. It was not easy to tell them apart from the humans. Legolas looked like a surfer boy, and Elrond looked like a pianting of Pontius Pilate I once saw. But that's just me.
I just wish it didn't end in the middle. Unsure


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


Jun 18 2013, 12:46am

Post #25 of 30 (351 views)
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That was the other thing [In reply to] Can't Post

The Hobbits' hair, it was straight in Bakshi's version, and Tolkien made it quite clear that their hair is CURLY. And the Balrog. And Treebeard. *shudders*

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