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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
History repeating itself
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kbdiggity
Rivendell

Jun 16 2013, 7:02pm

Post #1 of 62 (1408 views)
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History repeating itself Can't Post

I've been frequenting ToRN for more than a decade, as it was the best place I could find to learn about some little film being shot in New Zealand based on some books I had read. So I was around a decade ago to read through the various messageboard threads when the movies were released. It struck me as particularly ironic to read a post today lamenting Peter Jackson's work on the Hobbit movies and how they have given people a better appreciation for how great the LoTR films are.

The reason it is so ironic is because I remember how upset the ToRN boards got at the flaws they found upon first viewing the three LoTR movies... but apparently the people upset at AUJ and the DoS trailer do not remember.

"I hate how they portrayed Frodo"

"What is this Arwen warrior princess crap"

'Too much Legolas shield surfing"

"Denethor is terrible"

"They wasted Faramir's character"

"They destroyed Gimli by making him comic relief"

"The Paths of the Dead look like scrubbing bubbles ghosts"

"Why are there elves at Helm's Deep?!"

"Why are Elrond and Galadriel mind-chatting from a great distance?"

"Check out the bad CGI in this scene with Legolas or that battle scene"

"I can't believe they just left Saruman in his tower"

"The Hobbit stand-ins are way too noticeable in this scene and that scene"

blah, blah, blah... and on it went. As each of the films were released the hardcore fans that frequented ToRN commiserated and blasted the things in those movies that upset them. Now history is simply repeating itself on the ToRN boards. Perhaps there are a bunch of newer posters who simply weren't here for the first go around. But as someone who was, I can't help but marvel at the similarities separated by a decade.


Oin's parasite
Rivendell


Jun 16 2013, 7:12pm

Post #2 of 62 (654 views)
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Heck, I love everything I'm seeing with these films! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"I've got parasites as big as my arm!"


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 16 2013, 7:14pm

Post #3 of 62 (642 views)
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The more things change the more they stay the same. [In reply to] Can't Post

Part of the pattern you're talking about is this: as soon as the next one comes out and people have new changes to worry about, the previous one looks better by comparison. I always figured it's just because changes take a lot of time to get used to and so we adjust to them and find our equilibrium just in time to get upset about new ones. Plus, it's just in the nature of fandom. People who are passionately interested in the details of something are always also passionate about any changes in those details. The trick is to remember that it's all supposed to be fun and we're all here because fundamentally we enjoy the topic and not to take the annoyances and worries out on each other. Smile

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Jim
Rivendell


Jun 16 2013, 7:19pm

Post #4 of 62 (612 views)
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I've been.... [In reply to] Can't Post

coming to torn since 2001, over ten years, I met my wife at the Return of the One Party in 2004 and you are right. Some posters on here are pretty much saying the same things now as they were saying about the LotR films when they were in production and being released. The complaining over the most trivial of things associated with these movies is rather tedious and is one of the many reasons why I don't post as often on the message boards. People moaning about the CGI, Legolas' eyes, PJ doesn't respect Tolkien's work, Azog being an idiot.......etc etc.

The same things were being said back then and now those movies are considered masterpieces. For Azog read Lurtz, for PJ not respecting Tolkien's work read Tom Bombadil or the Scouring of the Shire, for CGI read Legolas shield surfing or his attack on the Mumakil. I could go on and on, the negativity exhibited on these boards over the past few months is truly history repeating itself.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Jun 16 2013, 7:19pm

Post #5 of 62 (590 views)
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People complaining about people complaining is worse than the actual "complaining" AKA, differing and equally valid opinions. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Jun 16 2013, 7:24pm)


bungobaggins
Lorien


Jun 16 2013, 7:21pm

Post #6 of 62 (616 views)
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Speaking as a new person [In reply to] Can't Post

I am fairly new to the forum here (about a month). I enjoyed the LOTR films a lot when they were released, and I still enjoy them. I came to the forum because I was feeling disillusioned with The Hobbit movies and I wanted to see what others thought after spending a considerable amount of time on the Hobbit subreddit (not the best place to try to start a conversation if you didn't enjoy the film, you will be covered in downvotes and you will be either ignored or mocked). So I came here to find people who had similar problems with the film, to maybe find a way to come to terms with what we are dealing with. So there are people here who are fairly new, who weren't here complaining about LOTR ten years ago, and who probably wouldn't have been, and I am one of them. Just wanted to put a face and a voice to one of the newer users.

"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!" - Gandalf

Darth Bungo: "Gandalf the Gray never told you what happened to your father."
Bilbo Barrel-rider: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him."
Darth Bungo: "No, I am your father."


Aragorn the Elfstone
Grey Havens


Jun 16 2013, 7:22pm

Post #7 of 62 (647 views)
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No, I do not agree. [In reply to] Can't Post

As I said in the other thread, I can't speak for others - but I LOVED the LotR films from the very beginning. I came out of FotR convinced I'd seen the very best film I'd ever experienced (and still feel that way).

This is not an instance of me forgetting anything. AUJ just let me down, period.

Again, I want to stress that I have come to enjoy the film on it's own terms - but it's no LotR. That is not me forgetting anything - it's objective criticism.

But if you guys were actually complaining that much about LotR when it came out (!), maybe it's a blessing I wasn't on the boards yet. Tongue

"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence


Hun200kmh
The Shire


Jun 16 2013, 7:29pm

Post #8 of 62 (587 views)
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True, history repeated [In reply to] Can't Post

Now, as then, we see characters butchered, storylines changed to worse version, etc etc. Thankfully we'll always have the books. Them and the movies are different and I've gone used to it. I know Denethor's dignity and tragedy, I know about Thror's foolish entry into Moria, about Thrain's despair and the war that followed. And I see the action-packed movies without worry, kids love zombie armies and lady-elf warriors.


Estel78
Tol Eressea

Jun 16 2013, 7:44pm

Post #9 of 62 (568 views)
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i don't think that's fair [In reply to] Can't Post

Unless you can prove that in both cases the same persons were saying that.


Metal Slug
Rivendell

Jun 16 2013, 7:49pm

Post #10 of 62 (539 views)
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Dont know if they upgraded the site since... [In reply to] Can't Post

But 215,000 posts in the Hobbit section vs. 40,000 for the LOTR section. Heck, I hardly knew what a 'puter was back in 2001. Laugh


totoro
Lorien

Jun 16 2013, 7:55pm

Post #11 of 62 (508 views)
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I adored all of the LotR films, particularly FotR [In reply to] Can't Post

Nevertheless, I took issue with about 80% of what you represented in the list of complaints. It is possible for both love and critique to exist in the same mind.



(This post was edited by totoro on Jun 16 2013, 7:57pm)


The Mitch King
Rohan


Jun 16 2013, 7:58pm

Post #12 of 62 (509 views)
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I skim over posts like that now [In reply to] Can't Post

You can instantly sense the type of post someone is about to make from the topic or first sentence. We have all given our opinions on what we like and don't like already in a hundred different threads so we I read them nowadays I roll my eyes and think to myself "yeah we get it".

The Hobbit does not have as many changes as LOTR. I am halfway through the Two Towers and it is totally different. I actually appreciate the movie's changes more and it gives me a good way to interpret the changes in the Hobbit movies. Crying about it will only ruin the only movies I might ever get in my life.


Jim
Rivendell


Jun 16 2013, 7:58pm

Post #13 of 62 (542 views)
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FotR [In reply to] Can't Post

When I first saw FotR I was completely blown away by it, that was my first introduction to Tolkien and I wanted to know more, I can still remember after walking out of the cinema asking my Father numerous questions about they story and I've been hooked ever since. It's a good job you weren't around back then because if I remember correctly the major complaints about FotR were:

1) It was nothing like the book
2) Frodo was too young
3) No Tom Bombadil or Barrow Downs
4) Aragorn is too indecisive and didn't get Narsil
5) The Black Riders weren't scary enough
6) Frodo was a wimp on Weathertop
7) Time between the ring being discovered and Frodo leaving was too short
8) Gimli was a buffoon
9) Council of Elrond was too short
10) Galadriel's nuclear explosion
11) Saruman's depiction of breeding an army
12) Lurtz wasn't in the book
13) Staircase scene in Moria
14) The whole cave troll scene in the Chamber of Mazarbul
15) Lothlorien was too blue
16) Isengard (Orthanc) had no buildings around it
17) No warg attack between Rivendell and Moria
18) Saruman casting a spell on Caradhras
19) The film ending on Boromir's death, where it should have been at the start of the Two Towers
20) Frodo not seeing all the lands around him while on Amon Hen
21) Glorfindel not even mentioned and doesn't rescue Frodo
22) Frodo not riding the horse, Arwen gets involved

Heck I could go on and on......but you get the picture ;)


(This post was edited by Jim on Jun 16 2013, 8:00pm)


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Jun 16 2013, 8:07pm

Post #14 of 62 (462 views)
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And yes, I'm aware that's a complaint. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Aragorn the Elfstone
Grey Havens


Jun 16 2013, 8:08pm

Post #15 of 62 (498 views)
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Ugh... [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, that would have driven me away promptly. Crazy I consider FotR the best film adaptation I've ever seen, and was blown away by it when I saw it. The words on my lips coming out of the cinema were "Perfect. Absolutely perfect."

"All men dream; but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds awake to find that it was vanity; But the dreamers of day are dangerous men. That they may act their dreams with open eyes to make it possible."
- T.E. Lawrence


Jim
Rivendell


Jun 16 2013, 8:08pm

Post #16 of 62 (467 views)
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That's the thing... [In reply to] Can't Post

There are no where near as many changes from the books with AUJ compared with the number of changes we had for each of the LotR movies. The changes are going to happen whether we like it or not because PJ and co have to bring these stories to life in a movie format and more importantly these movies have to appeal to the masses not just us book fans. For example, one change I didn't agree with PJ initially back on FotR was Aragorn's character. However hearing his and Boyens reasoning behind the change made me think yeah that makes more sense from a movie perspective and doing it like in the book wouldn't be as effective. There were many other occasions like this where I thought, yes the film makers got that right and not followed the book.

As one of Torn's regulars on the message boards would say (Gramma) Trust in PJ. Wink


(This post was edited by Jim on Jun 16 2013, 8:17pm)


Jim
Rivendell


Jun 16 2013, 8:16pm

Post #17 of 62 (472 views)
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Exactly.... [In reply to] Can't Post

and I do feel even though I'm a great admirer of Tolkien's work that PJ himself doesn't get enough credit for what he did from some people, particularly the purists. Remember back in 1998, PJ and his crew took a HUGE gamble on making these movies, absolutely huge, fortunately New Line had the balls to finance the movies and they trusted PJ to pull it off. Back then PJ wasn't really well known as a Director but his sheer will and determination and trust in his cast and crew got him through it. That's why I probably give him the benefit of the doubt on these Hobbit movies because lets be honest he really earned it.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jun 16 2013, 8:22pm

Post #18 of 62 (449 views)
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For me there is no repetition [In reply to] Can't Post

i can severely criticize the lotr films and i am more than aware of their flaws and certainly do not think they are faithfull adaptations of the books nor that they are all that they could be, particularly the last two...And still appreciate them much, much more than these recent action movies called TH.

For many, AUJ is simply forgettable. You know, incompetent writing and diretcing , bla bla bla...

More of a tragedy really...

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Marionette
Rohan


Jun 16 2013, 8:26pm

Post #19 of 62 (451 views)
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Yes, and I have said before:: [In reply to] Can't Post

they are doing the same work they did with LOTR.

Praising LOTR trilogy and bashing The Hobbit is absurd.

Honestly I am more satisfied with The Hobbit than how I was with LOTR trilogy

Why? Well, I can say one thing:

Because The Hobbit book is very opened to interpretations, LOTR books not.


"Dear friend good bye, no tears in my eyes. So sad it ends, as it began"
Queen



Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jun 16 2013, 8:31pm

Post #20 of 62 (432 views)
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How is it absurd to like the lotr films [In reply to] Can't Post

and not like the hobbit films?

They are two different beasts.

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!

(This post was edited by Lusitano on Jun 16 2013, 8:31pm)


Jim
Rivendell


Jun 16 2013, 8:33pm

Post #21 of 62 (424 views)
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I think with the Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ was always going to be caught between a rock and a hardplace. If he made the Hobbit like a children's story he gets criticized for not taking it seriously enough where at any time during the movie you felt the characters were in no real danger. Sound familiar? If he made the Hobbit more adult like then he would get criticized for not taking the whole spirit of the book seriously with no additional tie ins from the appendices. Sound familiar? Damned if he does; damned if he doesn't.


Ardamr
Valinor


Jun 16 2013, 8:52pm

Post #22 of 62 (392 views)
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Interpretation [In reply to] Can't Post

Why do you think The Hobbit is more open to interpretation than LOTR? I would be willing to say the opposite: that The Hobbit is a simpler tale more easily adapted than the megamonster that is LOTR.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undmiel




Marionette
Rohan


Jun 16 2013, 8:53pm

Post #23 of 62 (390 views)
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Both films are the same [In reply to] Can't Post

I mean To Praise LOTR (Because I do like LOTR as well) and bash The Hobbit

Both films are exactly the same, why people praise LOTR but thrash The Hobbit, I find no reason, And I have read your opinions about LOTR, and still dont find the reason but the phenomenon the LOTR trilogy was in 2001-2003

2001: LOTR trilogy was stuning and something new, no other fantasy film was like that before
2012: The Hobbit came out with a history of 10 years of stuning fantasy/epic/super especial effects films on its back. Nothing new.

Anyway it wasnt my case, when the LOTR trilogy came out and when I read the books: It dissapointed me, The books are so much better

With The Hobbit its the opposiste, the book is shorter and open to interpretations and addings.


"Dear friend good bye, no tears in my eyes. So sad it ends, as it began"
Queen



Thranderz
Rohan


Jun 16 2013, 8:53pm

Post #24 of 62 (385 views)
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Yes! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Now, as then, we see characters butchered, storylines changed to worse version, etc etc. Thankfully we'll always have the books. Them and the movies are different and I've gone used to it. I know Denethor's dignity and tragedy, I know about Thror's foolish entry into Moria, about Thrain's despair and the war that followed. And I see the action-packed movies without worry, kids love zombie armies and lady-elf warriors.


This. I love the movie adaptations and I like how they're different from the books. We have the books on one hand and on the other these wonderful films that have a different take on the story, which I find interesting. Smile

I simply walked into Mordor.


bungobaggins
Lorien


Jun 16 2013, 8:57pm

Post #25 of 62 (369 views)
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Could you please elaborate on this point. I don't quite understand. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Both films are exactly the same


"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!" - Gandalf

Darth Bungo: "Gandalf the Gray never told you what happened to your father."
Bilbo Barrel-rider: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him."
Darth Bungo: "No, I am your father."

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