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Barrow-Wight
Rohan
Jun 15 2013, 2:44pm
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Gandalf Meets Thrain
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I was thinking earlier about when Gandalf and Radagast met in AUJ and Radagast tells him about Dol Guldur and Gandalf replies "But the old fortress is abandoned" which clearly meant he had been there before. we know that Gandalf meets Thrain in this movie. well I've been thinking about it and maybe the meeting is told to Radagast as a flashback. Gandalf and Radagast are wandering Dol Guldur but Gandalf has an uncanny knowledge of where to go, Radagast says something like "you act like you've been here before" and Gandalf replies "I have" and he starts to tell him about the reasons he came the first time (which must be different then in the book) and how he meets Thrain. then the flashback culd be interupted by a noise or something that jolts him out of the flashback that leads to the "It's a trap line" don't they also fight some kind of creature here as well? or is it just Thrain?
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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea
Jun 15 2013, 3:18pm
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The Bolg/Gandalf toy pack implies that the pair will clash at some point (probably in Dol Guldur)
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Having Gandalf find Thrain in the dungeons of the Necromancer and receive the map and key at that point is such an easy way of kicking off both stories, I still find it really weird they didn't use it. I don't think the Thrain attack on Gandy will be a flashback for this reason...perhaps a zombie Thrain helps convince Gandy that there is indeed a Necromancer on the Hill of Sorcery.
My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit" 5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck 4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot 3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan 2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate 1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!
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Barrow-Wight
Rohan
Jun 15 2013, 3:42pm
Post #3 of 30
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Zombie Thrain... wow never thought of that, although it makes me uncomfortable thinking about the rumors of Zombie Smaug
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Macfeast
Rohan
Jun 15 2013, 4:09pm
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A zombified Thráin could actually answer many of our questions regarding the timeline, the key and the map, and Glamdring.
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During his first visit (which happened before the quest of Erebor), Gandalf got the key and map from a living Thráin, after which Thráin died (and Gandalf... left the body lying?). He also confirmed that "the old fortress is abandoned." During his second visit (together with Radagast, in present time), Gandalf runs into a zombified Thráin and fights him (now with Glamdring), and can through zombie-Thráin confirm the presence of the Necromancer.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Jun 15 2013, 4:17pm)
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Radagast's Lead Bunny
Rivendell
Jun 15 2013, 4:27pm
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Sorry but dwarves minds are supposedly not breakable by Sauron so he cannot transform them in wraiths or undead. Why has PJ to change everything ?
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Macfeast
Rohan
Jun 15 2013, 4:32pm
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But a dead Thráin? That's just an empty body, with no mind capable of presenting resistance. Sauron couldn't turn the dwarves into wraiths like the Nazgûl, and if that had happened, it would indeed clash with the description of dwarves as indomitable. However, I do think it plausible that their dead bodies could be turned into wights (or as we have called them up until now, zombies), since that is just that; A dead body, it's soul having moved on to something different. How would the body resist?
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Jun 15 2013, 4:42pm)
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Jun 15 2013, 5:42pm
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so how does Gandalf get the key if he fights Thrain in the present??
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take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Jun 15 2013, 5:50pm
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the necromancer retreats inside smaug's body after his forces are defeated at the BOT5A, he flies to the top of barad-dûr and breathes fire & his soul out of smaug....poof!! flaming eye ignites!!! smaug falls lifeless onto barad-dûr's spiraling towers.
take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!
(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Jun 15 2013, 5:52pm)
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namarie
Rohan
Jun 15 2013, 6:53pm
Post #9 of 30
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I was just thinking about this
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Today I re-watched AUJ and when Gandalf gives the key to Thorin he just says " It was given to me by your father, by Thrain, for safekeeping". So what if Thrain didn't gave the key to Gandalf in Dol Guldur but somewhere before the battle of Moria where Thrain disappears. Maybe after they left Erebor, Thrain meets Gandalf somewhere and he gives him the map and the key for safekeeping just as Gandalf says. If that would be the case Gandalf could go with Radagast in Dol Guldur in the second movie and find Thrain there. And the meeting between the two of them would not be a flashback but could play out in the present time. And maybe we will see Gandalf and Thrain explaining when they met in the past and Thrain gave him the key.
"The world is not in your books and maps. It's out there!" "Such is the nature of evil. In time all foul things come forth."
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Captain Salt
Tol Eressea
Jun 15 2013, 7:02pm
Post #10 of 30
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Thrain gave him the key before the events of the film, as mentioned by Gandalf? //
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My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit" 5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck 4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot 3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan 2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate 1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 15 2013, 7:07pm
Post #11 of 30
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so how does Gandalf get the key if he fights Thrain in the present?? The suggestion was that Gandalf had encounted the dying Thrain in the past (much like he did in the book). This is when he would have acquired the map and key. It would have been only after Thrain died that the Necromancer (or one of his servants) would have summoned an evil or corrupted spirit to inhabit his body, turning him into a Wight.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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NoelGallagher
Rohan
Jun 15 2013, 7:20pm
Post #12 of 30
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is very confusing ! but, i´m looking forward how everything plays out. Especially the timeline...
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jun 16 2013, 12:02am
Post #13 of 30
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Wights and reanimated dead bodies
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I'm really hoping Jackson DOES NOT add zombies or reanimated dead bodies into the mix. IMO it's moving WAY too far away from the story. We could just as easily have Thrain as the rambling tortured lunatic that Tolkien wrote about without having to resort to making him a zombie.
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Jun 16 2013, 12:32am
Post #14 of 30
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so your saying there will be no flashback of Gandalf finding Thrain?
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Fran has already said they have that scene shot but they couldn't find a way to include it in AUJ.
take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!
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Metal Slug
Rivendell
Jun 16 2013, 12:36am
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Of course, but whats the fun in that?
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Zombies? Please no. I didn't even like the ghost army despite the Tolkien mythos. I thought he overplayed them and honestly don't think they match well with Middle Earth. No world war Z thankyou.
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xxxyyy
Rohan
Jun 16 2013, 1:48am
Post #16 of 30
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Nice idea! Hence the Necromancer name-
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The name Necromancer should come from something, otherwise why calling him that way?
http://energyfromthorium.com/
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The Mitch King
Rohan
Jun 16 2013, 3:47am
Post #17 of 30
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I don't think "the old fortress is abandoned" means Gandalf was there before. It just means "oh yeah that old fortress in Mirkwood... I'm pretty sure no one has been living there in a while" How I think the Thrain story plays out. Thrain gave the map to Gandalf in Moria when he was a prisoner to Azog and Bolg. Thrain knew he would get taken to Dol Guldur and gave the map and key to Gandalf for "safekeeping". Then he gets taken by Bolg to Dol Guldur hence Bolg working for the Necromancer. Somehow all of this will come back to Azog and Bolg meeting the Necromancer. Or were the orcs sent to Moria by Sauron? Either way there is a connection we are ignorant of right now. This is the thing I am most excited to have explained!
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Scourge of the Stoors
Rivendell
Jun 16 2013, 5:03am
Post #18 of 30
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Personally, I think it would be awesome if this film were to start off with Gandalf getting the key and then flash forward to Thorin rotating it in his fingers atop the carrock, with the Lonely Mountain in the background.
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jtarkey
Rohan
Jun 16 2013, 10:58am
Post #19 of 30
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The question we should all be asking is...
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Why can Thrain apparently leap on to Gandalfs back from upwards of 30 feet in the air? "No one tosses a Dwarf" indeed. They can toss themselves.
"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jun 16 2013, 1:36pm
Post #20 of 30
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So because Tolkien named him "Necromancer"...
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That means PJ should have him reanimating dead dwarves and orcs when he never did anything like that in the books?
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Barrow-Wight
Rohan
Jun 16 2013, 3:18pm
Post #21 of 30
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Why can Thrain apparently leap on to Gandalfs back from upwards of 30 feet in the air? Again, Maybe Zombie Thrain can explain that one too
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 16 2013, 3:36pm
Post #22 of 30
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That means PJ should have him reanimating dead dwarves and orcs when he never did anything like that in the books? Didn't Sauron (or at least his servant the Witch-king) send evil spirits from Angmar to inhabit tombs and barrows as Wights? How is doing the same with Thrain's corpse signifcant'y different?
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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bungobaggins
Lorien
Jun 16 2013, 3:55pm
Post #23 of 30
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Spider-Thrain, Spider-Thrain He don't need no spider cane Spins a web, dwarvish size Catches orcs like Mirkwood flies Look out! Here comes the Spider-Thrain!
"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!" - Gandalf Darth Bungo: "Gandalf the Gray never told you what happened to your father." Bilbo Barrel-rider: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him." Darth Bungo: "No, I am your father."
(This post was edited by bungobaggins on Jun 16 2013, 3:59pm)
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jun 16 2013, 4:07pm
Post #24 of 30
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Yeah, I guess there are instances of "undead" creatures in the legendarium, although the Barrow-wights are the ONLY instance of dead bodies being reanimated that I can think of, and they are peculiar to the Barrow-downs. In any case, I still don't think it would be appropriate to turn Thrain into a wight. In fact, I don't think it's appropriate to have him alive during the time of TH, but I know PJ doesn't care about timelines.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 16 2013, 4:16pm
Post #25 of 30
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We can certainly agree about a live Thrain...
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Yes. Thrain should still be ninety years dead. We'll see how PJ has handled that.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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