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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jun 13 2013, 4:50am
Post #1 of 37
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Gandalf in Dol Guldur. . . why he needs to show the greatest display of his power yet seen.
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We have seen him perform great feats of power, yet sporatically, sometimes abstaining at curious moments. This sometimes leaves the casually viewer scratching their head, but the more knowing viewer, or the particularly astute, note that he uses the more potent aspects of his power, only when needed and against significant odds. This correlates with him not seeking to overawe those whom he seeks to guide (in particular the Free Peoples), and with him not using his greater powers superfluously where other means will suffice.
Yet here we will find him alone, in what is almost certainly (with, in the film account, The Nine present in close proximity to their arisen master, and thus more powerful than they have been at any time to that point since Sauron's fall to The Alliance) the most perilous situation that he has faced in his two thousand years in his aged guise, and the most perilous that he will face until his confrontation with the Maia Demon who reigns supreme in Moria (with the possible exception of his duel with Saruman). He will be "hard put to it." He will also be largely unhampered by any inclination to restrain himself (beyond the limits imposed by his assumed form) to avoid overwhelming his lesser allies with his powers, or causing them to rely too heavily on him by rescuing them with paranormal powrs when normal means will avail, as no such allies will be present with him.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jun 13 2013, 5:37am
Post #2 of 37
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Further commentary (had to depart earlier and did not finish).
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Thus ^, it will be essentially inexplicable to see anything less than a very staggering display of power from him here. This is an all or nothing moment. He cannot allow himself to be captured. He is too deep in all the counsels of Sauron's chief foes, being himself the foremost advisor and mover of Sauron's foes, despite Saruman's titular status. He must also escape because he has the pivotal knowledge that it is indeed, beyond doubt, Sauron returned and hunting down every Great Ring he can acquire.
Within the three films in which we have seen representation of Gandalf The Gray, it has already been clearly shown that he can perform many feats of power, even if he does not perform them consistently or at every opportunity. We have seen that he can split rocks, break bridges and dislodge boulders with bursts of blue flame using his staff, we have seen that he can wield telekenitic powers and toss even great Saruman about, we have seen that he can blast away dozens of goblins and massive, several ton torture machines, and we have seen that, even with his staff discarded/broken and absent he can call lightning to himself (Two Towers atop the mountain peak).
In the instances where he has not used his power there have always been plausible excueses for any who took a moment to consider. . . in Moria, in the films, he knows there is a great Demon lurking, so it would not be wise to weary himself using his power to thwart orcs and a troll when arms and fleeing might be sufficient. He is not present at Weathertop, in the superflous warg chase scene he wants the dwarves to continue to Rivendell, so it would not do to overwhelm their pursuers etc.
In Dol Guldur there will be no such explanations. Either he will put forth great power (and he just needs to, since Galadriel is certainly expected to do so ere all is said and done), or people will legitimately ask why and have no good answer. I for one am hoping for something of a lift of the original, cannonical Amon Sul battle.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 13 2013, 7:09am
Post #3 of 37
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You cannot imagine how little I care to see Gandalf display massive power. That has nothing to do with the story of The Hobbit, which is about Bilbo, and everything to do with titillating the fans who go for the loudest explosions in preference to the best storytelling.
Gandalf is most powerful when he is saying things like, "It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand."
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lurtz2010
Rohan
Jun 13 2013, 7:27am
Post #4 of 37
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what do you want to see him do this time?
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more light from his staff blowing enemies away? I can imagine him doing some kind of wizardy attack by controlling the dark clouds in the sky to cause some damage? I dunno... I hope they come up with something new and original that makes it the ultimate wizard battle in history.
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LordGawain
Rivendell
Jun 13 2013, 10:18am
Post #5 of 37
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Very true, especially of Gandalf the Grey. I have three favourite Gandalf moments. One is his talk with Frodo in Moria, the second his comforting of Pippin in the siege of Minas Tirith. The third is undoubtably his stand-off with the balrog, but even there, it's not so much his magical abilities that send shivers down my spine, but the absolute power that comes from Mckellen's performance. I don't need to see amazing special effects, although I don't mind them either, as long as Mckellen's performance isn't overshadowed by them.
I imagine seeing Gandalf standing in the middle of Dol Guldor, slowly being surrounded by the nine. An old man leaning on a staff, seemingly not very strong. And then we see the fire in his eyes, he lifts his hand and Narya is burning on his finger, and his thundering voice speaks, and the Nazgul flee in despair. This could be much more powerful than a CGI duel were Ian Mckellen is replaced with a digital double.
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TFP
Lorien
Jun 13 2013, 10:24am
Post #6 of 37
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yeah, maybe Galadriel will do some really blinding elf-magic that requires loads of ingredients or something to make it work, maybe that'll mean bringing loads of bags worth of stuff with them, perhaps Gandalf will be strong enough to carry all of these.
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Arannir
Valinor
Jun 13 2013, 11:44am
Post #7 of 37
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Gandalf is most powerful when he is saying things like, "It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand."
100% agreed.
That is why I am also sure and have been sure that even if she will carry Gandalf, this will not really endanger the status that Gandalf has in the audience's mind. After all, for the regular moviegoer it is not important at all to have a hierarchy scetched out in their head. What matters is to see that Gandalf is the driving force.
However, I do like the idea of the battle at Dol Guldur to be inspired by the fight of Amon Sul.
“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien
Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Jun 13 2013, 11:45am)
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Lusitano
Tol Eressea
Jun 13 2013, 2:53pm
Post #9 of 37
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the only magic i am really interested in seeing from Gandalf are his fireworks at the old tooks party in a possible flashback...
Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!
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TFP
Lorien
Jun 13 2013, 3:19pm
Post #10 of 37
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I definitely partly agree with Elizabeth - I always thought i a really nice conceit, the way that Olorin, at a meeting of the Valar, initially doesn't want to go to ME because he thinks himself too weak; he is afraid of Sauron.
But then it's also imporant that he is very powerful, even as Gandalf the Grey [see his face-off with the Balrog].
Both facets are important.
I'm easy either way.
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Jun 13 2013, 4:02pm
Post #11 of 37
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not true about appeasing fans with loud explosions
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Gandalf displays lots of magic and mayhem in the book, more so than LOTR's. I actually think PJ diminished Gandalf's powerful magic in the sequence where he shows up to save the company in goblin town. Gandalf is a "wizard", first and foremost, not a old man that walks around saying powerful lines of dialogue.
take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!
(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on Jun 13 2013, 4:06pm)
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jun 13 2013, 4:25pm
Post #12 of 37
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I'd also like to see Saruman play a major role...
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Going by canon, Saruman was the driving force behind the "ouster" of Sauron from Dol Guldur. Gandalf relays at the Council of Elrond that it was through Saruman's devices that Sauron was finally driven out. It wouldn't surprise me though, if Jackson had Saruman sit out the battle in a bit of LOTR foreshadowing (plus Sir C. Lee's advanced age).
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jun 14 2013, 4:43am
Post #13 of 37
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Not really the central point. There are issues of continuity as well as cannon and proper portrayl to consider.
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It may not matter a whit to you or some others here and there whose focus is on other things. I am not one who hankers to see Gollum outside of where he is supposed to appear in the book, but each to his or her own.
The point, however, is that Gandalf, whatever you prefer about him ( and I love his sagacious sayings), IS A Wizard. Indeed, a Holy Spirit in Wizards form, but even without delving very deeply into that, he has great power. He does not need to display it all the time.
But consider this, and consider it very carefully: he is known to have significant powers. These are attributed to him in the novels (indeed, according to cannon he performs feats more impressive than those we see in the films), and are wholly cannonical and part of an accurate portrayl of him. What is more, for continuity's sake, we have seen him perform acts of powerful magic in this incarnation in 3 films. The Audience KNOWS there are certain things he is capable of. He is NOT an old version of Aragorn or a wise and beareded Denethor, limited to the powers and abilities of men. We will be seeing him in a moment of great peril, one which he must escape, and will put his best efforts into escaping. There are fewer inhibitions on him than at any other point in Hobbit or Fellowship. He is not holding back so that others will realize their potential, or to avoid placing friends and following adherents too much in awe of that which he is allowed to reveal.
If in this moment of great peril, Gandalf faces the forces of Dol Guldur and does NOT show forth at least as much as he is already known to be capable of in the films, it will leave a great many audience members scratching and shaking there heads. As to the biggest explosions. . . suffice to say I still do not think it would do to have Galadriel or any Elf completely show up all of the Wizards, but that is another matter.
My primary issue is, whether or not you take personal interest in his powers or no, they are highly relevant at points in the story, particularly if he is alone in a place like the fortress of Sauron, detected and besieged. It would be madness to show him doing no more and no better than Legolas, Aragorn or Dwalin would be able to manage in such a situation, i.e. fighting without the aid of supernatural abilities. You cannot imagine how little I care to see Gandalf display massive power. That has nothing to do with the story of The Hobbit, which is about Bilbo, and everything to do with titillating the fans who go for the loudest explosions in preference to the best storytelling.
Gandalf is most powerful when he is saying things like, "It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand."
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jun 14 2013, 4:47am
Post #14 of 37
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I would be thrilled if they lifted the exact scene alluded to in the novels for Amon Sul,
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where he battles the nine for the duration of the night, and the lightning and the light of his fire enchantments are seen by Aragorn and Frodo from afar. Obviously no Aragorn or Frodo, but the display of power in keeping with what they witnessed.
The Audience already knows he can perform potent magic, it would not make a lick of sense for him to be in a situation like what he will face in Dol Guldur and limit himself to Melee combat as though he had no more power for enchantment than Aragorn or Thorin. I get what you are saying and think some of that could work as well. more light from his staff blowing enemies away? I can imagine him doing some kind of wizardy attack by controlling the dark clouds in the sky to cause some damage? I dunno... I hope they come up with something new and original that makes it the ultimate wizard battle in history.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 14 2013, 4:49am
Post #15 of 37
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Lee's age can be dealt with...
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...using stunt doubles, as they did in FotR. They are good at that.
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jun 14 2013, 4:50am
Post #16 of 37
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You are actually agreeing with me almost exactly without knowing it. lol
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What I DON'T want is some melee mayhem where Mckellen is digitally replaced and shown to fight like Aragorn without doing any magic, as though he were as limited in that area as a human man. What you said is great, the thundering voice etc, though I would hope to see some of those famous fire enchantments, something in line with his routing of the wargs in the passes of Caradhras or his fight with The Nine on Amn Sul.
I imagine seeing Gandalf standing in the middle of Dol Guldor, slowly being surrounded by the nine. An old man leaning on a staff, seemingly not very strong. And then we see the fire in his eyes, he lifts his hand and Narya is burning on his finger, and his thundering voice speaks, and the Nazgul flee in despair. This could be much more powerful than a CGI duel were Ian Mckellen is replaced with a digital double.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jun 14 2013, 4:53am
Post #17 of 37
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said to Elizabeth,
"The point, however, is that Gandalf, whatever you prefer about him ( and I love his sagacious sayings), IS A Wizard. Indeed, a Holy Spirit in Wizards form, but even without delving very deeply into that, he has great power. He does not need to display it all the time.
But consider this, and consider it very carefully: he is known to have significant powers. These are attributed to him in the novels (indeed, according to cannon he performs feats more impressive than those we see in the films), and are wholly cannonical and part of an accurate portrayl of him. What is more, for continuity's sake, we have seen him perform acts of powerful magic in this incarnation in 3 films. The Audience KNOWS there are certain things he is capable of. He is NOT an old version of Aragorn or a wise and beareded Denethor, limited to the powers and abilities of men. We will be seeing him in a moment of great peril, one which he must escape, and will put his best efforts into escaping. There are fewer inhibitions on him than at any other point in Hobbit or Fellowship. He is not holding back so that others will realize their potential, or to avoid placing friends and following adherents too much in awe of that which he is allowed to reveal.
If in this moment of great peril, Gandalf faces the forces of Dol Guldur and does NOT show forth at least as much as he is already known to be capable of in the films, it will leave a great many audience members scratching and shaking there heads. As to the biggest explosions. . . suffice to say I still do not think it would do to have Galadriel or any Elf completely show up all of the Wizards, but that is another matter.
My primary issue is, whether or not you take personal interest in his powers or no, they are highly relevant at points in the story, particularly if he is alone in a place like the fortress of Sauron, detected and besieged. It would be madness to show him doing no more and no better than Legolas, Aragorn or Dwalin would be able to manage in such a situation, i.e. fighting without the aid of supernatural abilities."
This isn't about do you prefer Gandalf's wisdom to his Wizardry. It is about the fact that he is a Wizard and it would be very bizzare and implausible for him to rely solely on martial fighting skills if he is attacked by Nazgul or significant enemy forces in the lair of Sauron. the only magic i am really interested in seeing from Gandalf are his fireworks at the old tooks party in a possible flashback...
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven
Jun 14 2013, 4:59am
Post #18 of 37
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Thank you . And while he does say powerful lines, and they are pivotal, that is not all there
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is to him. Some here are seemingly taking the notion that I am suggesting that Gandalf's entire portrayl from here on out should be just him blowing things up. Not at all.
What I AM saying is that it would not make ANY sense, and would unecessarily raise lots of very legitmate questions if he ends up in peril in Dol Guldur and does not put forth a display of magic at least on par with what we have seen him manage before in instances like Goblintown, his battle with Saruman, and elements of his battle with The Balrog. It will not make him appear any more sagacious to have millions of baffled viewers wondering why the hell he doesn't use the powers they already know he has when faced with great peril in Dol Guldur, rather than just swinging around his blade and staff like a common warrior who wouldn't know how to start a conflagration with a lit brand and a cauldron full of pitch. Gandalf displays lots of magic and mayhem in the book, more so than LOTR's. I actually think PJ diminished Gandalf's powerful magic in the sequence where he shows up to save the company in goblin town. Gandalf is a "wizard", first and foremost, not a old man that walks around saying powerful lines of dialogue.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 14 2013, 7:35am
Post #19 of 37
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I think there were only five. And, in any case, if we see Gandalf taking on all nine at Dol Guldur in TH, how would we have any concern about seeing him reluctant to face the Witch King in RotK? ("And against some, I have not been tested.")
It is not appropriate, long-term, for the "ultimate wizard battle in history" to take place in Film 2 or 3 of a 6-film series.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jun 14 2013, 12:40pm
Post #20 of 37
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I still have a feeling that Saruman's role will be significantly shrunk (since not many are likely to be rooting for him). Since the Dol Guldur sub-plot is basically being portrayed as Gandalf's "coming-of-age" moment (for lack of a better term), and they seem dead-set on portraying Galadriel as, in Boyens' words, "the most powerful being in Middle-earth", I think those two will play the most important role in the battle by far.
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Escapist
Gondor
Jun 14 2013, 12:47pm
Post #21 of 37
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Saruman's full intentions were somewhat dispersed at this time.
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His mind may not have been fully focused and present.
Anyway, his primary power appears to be centered in lore and especially "influence" - which he may have found more useful to focus elsewhere.
I agree that Galadriel should have a primary role - but for a different reason. She is the one who throws down DG after the War of the Ring according to the appendices, so it makes sense that she would be devastatingly effective and powerful - if not a bit watered down by Saruman (perhaps demanding to take a leadership role, slowing things down deliberately, and/or otherwise toning down the others as part of submitting to his authority).
Mostly guesswork here ... I shall be delighted to see what they actually do with it.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jun 14 2013, 1:35pm
Post #22 of 37
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his primary power appears to be centered in lore and especially "influence" - which he may have found more useful to focus elsewhere.
It was due to the "devices of Saruman" that the Council was ultimately able to drive Sauron out of Dol Guldur. This was mentioned during Gandalf's account of the battle relayed during the Council of Elrond. What exactly is meant by "devices" was never explicitly made clear, but Saruman WAS the deciding factor in the battle.
As for Saruman's intentions, he had been stonewalling any notion of an attack on Dol Guldur for almost 100 years, and being the head of the Council, he was able to overrule the others. Secretly, he surmised that if Sauron were allowed to gain strength, the Ring might reveal itself and then Saruman could take the Ring for himself. The movies, IMO, have done a poor job of portraying Saruman's double-dealing, and instead portrayed him as Sauron's lackey. Anyway, Saruman was absolutely a villain by the time of Bilbo's quest, but not yet openly so.
As for Galadriel, yes, she is the one who "throws down the walls" of Dol Guldur after the Ring is destroyed, though what is meant by "throwing down the walls" is never exactly defined. So while I have no problem with her being "devastatingly effective and powerful", she should NOT be portrayed as being more powerful than Saruman, Gandalf, or even Radagast. The three wizards are divine spirits older than the world itself. Galadriel is counted high amongst the elves, maybe highest, but she is nowhere near as powerful as the wizards are.
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Jun 14 2013, 1:37pm)
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Jun 14 2013, 3:50pm
Post #23 of 37
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was not Saruman trying to make Gandalf out to be a "trouble-maker" at the white council? Saruman was clearly trying to spin all the facts about the necromancer and the morgul-blade to his own ends...delaying a confrontation in dol-guldur. I think they did a good job at showing Saruman trying to bide his time in order to find the ring.
take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!
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Lusitano
Tol Eressea
Jun 14 2013, 4:13pm
Post #24 of 37
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I agree that there is a point to be made
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about Gandalfs superior winzardry and power display...he certainly should have such powers..question is will the director chose to display them and in what manner?
Also, it could remove the element of surprise for those who have not yet seen Lotr and wont possibly be as impressed with gandalf power at the bridge of Kazad Dum...
Vous commencez à m'ennuyer avec le port!!!
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jun 14 2013, 6:18pm
Post #25 of 37
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He's certainly being an obstructionist in AUJ, but it's not hinted at as to why...
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The way Saruman was portrayed in the LOTR movies, it made him out to look like a total puppet of Sauron, when this was not completely the case. Once Saruman became convinced that Sauron would win the war (through looking in the Palantir), he feigned loyalty to Sauron's cause, and in secret he still hoped to find the Ring for himself, and unseat Sauron as the Dark Lord (which, Saruman being a powerful Maia himself, would have been almost as bad as Sauron getting the Ring). I felt that the movies didn't make the audience aware of Saruman's true intentions, and instead portrayed him as totally subservient to Sauron. There's one moment in TTT movie that hints at it (when Ugluk says "Saruman will have his prize."), but that's about it.
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