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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
physics barrels lids
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jimmyfenn
Rohan


Jun 12 2013, 11:52pm

Post #1 of 53 (965 views)
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physics barrels lids Can't Post

ok so the point of the barrels is to float down the river away from the elves, but if they have no lids on theyll just sink?

doh

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro


bungobaggins
Lorien


Jun 13 2013, 12:15am

Post #2 of 53 (582 views)
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No, no, no [In reply to] Can't Post

In physics free Middle-Earth the lack of barrel top makes it so the barrel acquires a rocket-type propulsion system which allows one to propel one's barrel into mid air in order to do battle with the enemy.

But in all seriousness I'm calling this now. During Bombur's "flying barrel scene" once he lands on the orcs on shore he will roll down the shoreline a la plat-former video gaming (Donkey Kong comes to mind). He will take out multiple orcs as he rolls along and will return safely to the river unscathed. Similar in style to the shot in AUJ of the company pushing the rock down the slope on top of the goblins during the escape sequence.

"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you; but you are only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all!" - Gandalf

Darth Bungo: "Gandalf the Gray never told you what happened to your father."
Bilbo Barrel-rider: "He told me enough. He told me you killed him."
Darth Bungo: "No, I am your father."

(This post was edited by bungobaggins on Jun 13 2013, 12:16am)


IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

Jun 13 2013, 12:52am

Post #3 of 53 (503 views)
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Probably [In reply to] Can't Post

but if this iconic scene is going to be in the film would you rather have it filmed so you can see the dwarves or not? The film makers chose door number 1. From a visual perspective having your 13 heroes packed away unseen in barrels doesn't make sense.


jimmyfenn
Rohan


Jun 13 2013, 1:28am

Post #4 of 53 (449 views)
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rather yes [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
but if this iconic scene is going to be in the film would you rather have it filmed so you can see the dwarves or not? The film makers chose door number 1. From a visual perspective having your 13 heroes packed away unseen in barrels doesn't make sense.


that scene in the book is all about bilbo, it would have shown his sneaking skills and brought the focus back on him. it is iconic, not comedic or compuer gamey, but fraught with tension and endurance from th e dwarves!

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jun 13 2013, 1:32am

Post #5 of 53 (433 views)
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This looks like a job for the MythBusters! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
ok so the point of the barrels is to float down the river away from the elves, but if they have no lids on theyll just sink?

doh



Seriously. The MythBusters should do a show on The Hobbit and or The Lord of the Rings. We could probably fill a separate thread on what myths should be explored.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


tarasaurus
Rohan


Jun 13 2013, 1:35am

Post #6 of 53 (450 views)
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I feel like... [In reply to] Can't Post

if people are going to be this picky about details such as lids on barrels, there's no point in them watching the movie Unsure


jimmyfenn
Rohan


Jun 13 2013, 1:38am

Post #7 of 53 (407 views)
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ha [In reply to] Can't Post

dont need myth busters just put a cup in the bath,splash it around a bit, it will sink! especially if you stuff a dwarf shaped toy in there!


Its not being picky! its just plain obvious to me, barrels float becuase they are boyent, not if you try to use them as a boat, in a raging river!

why change it. keep it like the book, i love that passages tension!

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro

(This post was edited by jimmyfenn on Jun 13 2013, 1:41am)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jun 13 2013, 1:49am

Post #8 of 53 (410 views)
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So where is the center of gravity on a Dwarf? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
dont need myth busters just put a cup in the bath,splash it around a bit, it will sink! especially if you stuff a dwarf shaped toy in there!


Its not being picky! its just plain obvious to me, barrels float becuase they are boyent, not if you try to use them as a boat, in a raging river!

why change it. keep it like the book, i love that passages tension!



The toy, though, isn't able to bail water out of the barrel--or paddle, for that matter. If you put a weight (a coin, say) at the bottom of the cup, the cup willl float--at least until enough water washes into it to sink it.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


BeornBerserker
Lorien

Jun 13 2013, 1:53am

Post #9 of 53 (411 views)
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in the book [In reply to] Can't Post

In they book weren't the filled with wine made by the Elves and still floated down the river?


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 13 2013, 1:59am

Post #10 of 53 (409 views)
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"fraught with tension and endurance from the dwarves"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Secured into barrels with tight-fitting lids, bent into place, no chance to move at all, and no bathroom breaks for two days!

Tension and endurance, indeed!

Tongue


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 13 2013, 2:45am

Post #11 of 53 (388 views)
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People can be as picky as they like. [In reply to] Can't Post

Just focus on what you enjoy, and ignore the rest.

We don't require a certain point of view here. All comments are welcome as long as they stay within our Terms of Service. The original comment was well within our TOS, but yours is borderline. There's no need to comment about other people's choices - just move on.


tarasaurus
Rohan


Jun 13 2013, 3:14am

Post #12 of 53 (352 views)
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Ah [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sorry, I didn't mean for it to offend anyone! I was only stating my opinion as well, I've been seeing far worse snarky comments on the boards and didn't think mine was awful. Sorry again :(


entmaiden
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jun 13 2013, 3:19am

Post #13 of 53 (356 views)
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You can state your opinion of the movies, [In reply to] Can't Post

but not other people. Saying they are "picky" is not in accordance with our TOS, which state:

3. Posts containing racial, ethnic, religious, political, sexual or other slurs, personal attacks (on a TORn user or other person) intentional attempts to drive posters away or make them feel unwelcome, or posts made with the purpose of criticizing or insulting another poster will be edited or removed.

The Admins try to be everywhere, but sometimes we miss things that might not be allowed. If you see something that might be questionable, contact one of the Admins. We're here to keep the boards open and friendly to EVERYONE.


DanielLB
Immortal


Jun 13 2013, 9:54am

Post #14 of 53 (286 views)
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I would've thought that the barrels would stay afloat [In reply to] Can't Post

Wood has a lower density than water, so it floats. A big oak tree in the ocean wouldn't sink.

The only way the barrels would sink is if they were submerged the entire time, to become completely full. If they're not full, they might roll on to their side, and just float.


Arannir
Valinor


Jun 13 2013, 11:49am

Post #15 of 53 (251 views)
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This. [In reply to] Can't Post

I was always 100% sure they would do it like this. And we saw pretty early on they were shooting it like this via the blogs.

I would have done it as well if I had to do it.

Bilbo should be the driving force behind the escape itself, I agree with that. But the actualy barrel ride - I am glad we will see them.



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


dave_lf
Gondor

Jun 13 2013, 12:54pm

Post #16 of 53 (232 views)
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And where's my Hobbit-themed graphing calculator? [In reply to] Can't Post

It comes down to the amount of buoyant force the wood of the barrel is able to provide compared to the weight of the dwarf plus however much water has been shipped. Probably the filmmakers will not see fit to share the numbers with the audience (they never do Frown).

BUT, we know the barrels were able to stay afloat when filled completely with wine, which has a density comparable to water. Humans too have densities very close to that of water (slightly more if they're muscular, slightly less if they're obese), and we can probably assume the same is true of a dwarf. So the barrel would probably be able to float if the dwarf were fully contained within it and all the remaining space were filled with water (the dwarf would likely not approve of this arrangement, however). BUT, the dwarves are not fully contained within the barrels--they're standing with much of their upper bodies above the rim. Further, the dwarves have no more than fleeting moments of nudity, and their gear is heavy. BUT, the barrels are not completely full of water either.

So we're right at the edge of uncertainty. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jun 13 2013, 1:30pm

Post #17 of 53 (222 views)
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You've got it backwards... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In they book weren't the filled with wine made by the Elves and still floated down the river?



The Wood-elves were importing the wine from Dorwinion to the south. Presumably the barrels were rafted up-river from Esgaroth. Some of the containers held other goods such as flour or apples. The empty barrels were dropped out of the river-gate and floated back to Lake-town.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Jun 13 2013, 1:46pm

Post #18 of 53 (216 views)
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An experiment you can do at home with bowling balls [In reply to] Can't Post

As long as the barrels had a Dwarf inside and were fairly stout wooden barrels, then the answer would be no, they wouldn't sink, due to the lower density of the materials filling the volume of water being displaced. Actually, you would be amazed at the things that will float in water. A while back a chemistry teacher friend noted that the density of a bowling ball, if it's not too big, is less than 1.0. I said "Are you suggesting bowling balls float??" But the answer is yes, given that the radius isn't too big. Here is an experiment you can do at home.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.







jimmyfenn
Rohan


Jun 13 2013, 1:53pm

Post #19 of 53 (212 views)
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IT WILL SINK [In reply to] Can't Post

yes the denisty/floating is not the issue, its the shape and lack of lid.

you can make anything float and anything can sink , but a container that is being dunked into lots of water! (the trailer clearly shows dunking anda raging river pouring water into the barrel) will definitely sink given its situation.

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Jun 13 2013, 2:12pm

Post #20 of 53 (205 views)
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Wont the elves [In reply to] Can't Post

guarding and suppervising the commerce outside the shipping yard- if you call it that- notice 13 barrels with dwarves on them?

We shoudl have a rolls eyes smiley, like so many forums have.

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Escapist
Gondor


Jun 13 2013, 2:15pm

Post #21 of 53 (196 views)
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Elvish barrels [In reply to] Can't Post

elvish ropes
elvish waybread
elvish jewels

This is not sci-fi


jimmyfenn
Rohan


Jun 13 2013, 2:16pm

Post #22 of 53 (192 views)
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drunk [In reply to] Can't Post

becasue this is the film and everything is like totally over the top so those elves wont be a bit drunk, theylll be so plastered they wont even know what a dwarf is!

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro

(This post was edited by jimmyfenn on Jun 13 2013, 2:17pm)


Macfeast
Rohan


Jun 13 2013, 2:19pm

Post #23 of 53 (196 views)
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On tension. [In reply to] Can't Post

Imagine how tense it would have been, had the barrels had lids, and during the escape we had seen barrels crash against the rocks, us not knowing if that barrel had a dwarf in it or not. That moment when the lids go and we see the dwarves safe and sound (if grumpy) would have been a moment of great relief.

I can see why they would want to lose the lids and show the dwarves during the barrel ride, but I don't see why you need to have them visible for the entirety of it. I think there's plenty of potential for tension in us not knowing how they are doing; Sometimes, the best tension comes from what we can't see.


(This post was edited by Macfeast on Jun 13 2013, 2:21pm)


Escapist
Gondor


Jun 13 2013, 2:24pm

Post #24 of 53 (182 views)
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Really great points! [In reply to] Can't Post

I really do agree that the use of what the audience doesn't see can lead to awesome suspense and mystery - and help to maintain the suspension of disbelief.


jimmyfenn
Rohan


Jun 13 2013, 2:24pm

Post #25 of 53 (180 views)
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exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

thats the difference between over th etop theme park ride barrel escape log flume style, and the suubtlness in the books, which would have translated perfectly to film!

why do we need to see the dwarve sin this bit anyway? its not like we havnt seen them for 4 hours of film already and another 4 after, that point is mute in my opinion.

it could be a perilous dangerous part of the story, but now its a joke.

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro

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