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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
In regards to the whole "staying true to Tolkien" argument...
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Misty Mountain Hop
Rivendell


Jun 12 2013, 3:17pm

Post #1 of 115 (1439 views)
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In regards to the whole "staying true to Tolkien" argument... Can't Post

While I firmly believe that his work is a true classic that should be well respected and preserved, we need to be a little more realistic. I know that there are always going to be those purists that don't accept any changes at all, and that's perfectly fine, but for the majority of us, these changes should come as no surprise.

How many different books get made into movies/TV shows? Harry Potter, LOTR, Hunger Games...Game of Thrones, Walking Dead, etc (some of my favorites). Maybe I never read about those, but I don't see huge arguments about straying from source material in those. There are tons of changes in HP and Hunger Games, but everyone seemed to be OK with it.

Some stuff is seriously unfilmable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Tolkien say himself that his writings were deemed unfilmable? I would give Jackson loads of credit for doing what he did. Peter made HIS version of what he interpreted to be LOTR and now The Hobbit. If people are not happy with it, and they want Tolkiens "interpretation" of them, they can read the books.

There is too much comparisons going on of what differs between the books and movies, and not enough amazement of what he did to connect them in the first place.

Final thought. The only reason I know of Lord of the Rings is because of Peter Jackson. If these movies weren't such a hit, I would have never fell in love. Hopefully everyone can be happy and enjoy these films for what they are, a beautiful story of an adventure in Middle Earth!!


Olorin2607
Lorien

Jun 12 2013, 3:24pm

Post #2 of 115 (781 views)
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Sorry.. [In reply to] Can't Post

but you miss the Point IMO.

The problems lie with the OTT Action sequences, unrealistic physics, it not being as gritty as LOTR in fights, overly cheesy lines, complete nonsense( nazgul tombs), now bad CGI ( Smaug) and rehashed music ( when not necessary).
Not with him changing things in general.

I loved LOTR although it was very different from the book.


telcontar7
The Shire

Jun 12 2013, 3:29pm

Post #3 of 115 (735 views)
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I probably missed the point as well [In reply to] Can't Post

The action scenes are expected since these are movies about going on an adventure. Also, I find it funny when people complain about physics in fantasy films with fire-breathing dragons, giant eagles, stone giants, and shapeshifters.

Also, we haven't even seen Smaug properly to judge if he will be well made in the movie.


Elessar
Valinor


Jun 12 2013, 3:31pm

Post #4 of 115 (697 views)
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Staying True [In reply to] Can't Post

As I mentioned earlier it depends on how flexible one is to the changes that we know are coming. There is a breaking point for everyone and its going to be different not to mention what one person thinks is too much might be ok for another. That's all part of the game. As a whole I believe Jackson has stayed true to Tolkien and the feel of Middle-earth from the books. It's not exactly the same but I feel its pretty close. At worst it's on the same block. lol

I don't blame anyone who gets upset. I understand because there are moments where I'm the same. It's people have to be understanding that some are going to be more flexible and some not so much. It doesn't mean either person loves Tolkien more than the other.

I'm rambling and I don't think this really answers your post. Just wanted to ramble for a second.



Misty Mountain Hop
Rivendell


Jun 12 2013, 3:32pm

Post #5 of 115 (661 views)
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No, I definitely agree with you there... [In reply to] Can't Post

You are right, all of those things are very difficult to take in. I really wish they could have the feel of LOTR. AUJ had its moments, although few, and this trailer had a few awesome moments.

I guess I was sort of going in a different direction with my initial post. I've seen a lot of complaining in regards to veering from the storyline, including the appendices, and added characters, as well as unnecessary action scenes (barrels, orc chases in AUJ). It seems like so many people want the movies to be word for word from the book, which really is not possible, unless it's made into a TV show like Game of Thrones.


shadowdog
Rohan

Jun 12 2013, 3:32pm

Post #6 of 115 (654 views)
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I disagree with some [In reply to] Can't Post

of what you said. There were Nazgul tombs in Tolkiens world, the CGI in the trailer is unfinished CGI just as it was for the trailers for the 3 LoTR and the 1st Hobbit trailers; the music in trailers never has anything to do with the final film score which won't be done for months.


Olorin2607
Lorien

Jun 12 2013, 3:34pm

Post #7 of 115 (688 views)
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Yep. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's about caring about the characters you know. How shall I fear for the lives and safety of the heroes when they can literally survive a 100 m fall through a cave and after that being crushed by a fat goblinking?
Or why should we care about those goblins if hundreds of them can just be kicked out of the way when they escape?
In FOTR when Aragorn fights Lurtz I did care, given how brutal that fight was. Lurtz was a beast. Azog is nothing compared to him.

@ shadowdog
wut? Where did you read anything about tombs for the Nazgul? Them being imprisoned? They are NOT dead. They never died. They just were drawn into the shadow between the worlds by their rings.
And especially.. all 9 of them in the same chamber (seen in that clip with Gandy and Rady)? LOL

And I was talking not about the music in the trailer.. I was talking about AUJ (Bilbo/Thorin hug Scene). I know that was just trailer music.


(This post was edited by Nagini6 on Jun 12 2013, 3:40pm)


malickfan
Gondor


Jun 12 2013, 3:41pm

Post #8 of 115 (638 views)
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I can see your point, and I agree to an extent [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
The only reason I know of Lord of the Rings is because of Peter Jackson. If these movies weren't such a hit, I would have never fell in love. Hopefully everyone can be happy and enjoy these films for what they are, a beautiful story of an adventure in Middle Earth!!


I had the same expereience, though I have vague memories of being read the hobbit in school,I was properly introduced to Tolkien via PJ's trilogy, I was blown away, and instantly left hooked, devoruing everything I could find written by Tolkien as soon as possible, I still love the trilolgy (not quite as much as the books now ironically), AUJ not really...

But alot of those books-The Hunger Games, Harry Potter etc were written by professional (or at least people soley interested in telling stories) authors, operating in a Blockbuster era, and are much more conventional in layout and prose (Tolkien on the other hand was a linguist and professor first and foremost, before being an author), furthermore the adaptations directly involved the Author in adaption process, and stayed firmly in tune with the tone, scope and purpose of the story in question.

The Hobbit whichever way you cut it, isn't Tolkien's Hobbit, it is a rewrite not an adaption. I get some people may have wanted that from a film, and yes I get that Tolkien experimented with doing that himself, but personally I don't think it's accurate to call The film The Hobbit, I think it is entirely valid for people to voice concerns about a simple primarily stand alone story, being made into a epic prequel based on the sparsest of notes and indications by an author dead four decades-Jackson and Co keep banging on about the spirit of Tolkien but IMO very little of what we have seen so far resembles the spirit of the book. The difference between The Hobbit and LOTR was The LOTR was changed because it needed to be, The Hobbit was changed because Jackson wanted it to be.


‘As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said ‘All is now ready.’

Perhaps the most fascinating Individual in Middle Earth



frodolives
Lorien

Jun 12 2013, 3:41pm

Post #9 of 115 (664 views)
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A film has to have internal logic [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The action scenes are expected since these are movies about going on an adventure. Also, I find it funny when people complain about physics in fantasy films with fire-breathing dragons, giant eagles, stone giants, and shapeshifters.

Also, we haven't even seen Smaug properly to judge if he will be well made in the movie.

Fantasy creatures do not mean the laws of physics are up for grabs. There is gravity in middle earth and, judging from the LOTR films, it behaves the same as what we're used to in real life. Every film has its own internal logic, and I expect it to stick to those values. Nothing in previous films suggested that anyone short of Gandalf could survive the massive plunges seen in the goblin caverns.


malickfan
Gondor


Jun 12 2013, 3:46pm

Post #10 of 115 (636 views)
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Gandalf wasn't as tubby as Bouncy Bombur... [In reply to] Can't Post

My 301st post on TORn...

‘As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said ‘All is now ready.’

Perhaps the most fascinating Individual in Middle Earth



(This post was edited by malickfan on Jun 12 2013, 3:48pm)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Jun 12 2013, 3:49pm

Post #11 of 115 (625 views)
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On fantasy... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The action scenes are expected since these are movies about going on an adventure. Also, I find it funny when people complain about physics in fantasy films with fire-breathing dragons, giant eagles, stone giants, and shapeshifters.

Also, we haven't even seen Smaug properly to judge if he will be well made in the movie.



The fantastic is easier to accept if the author or director pays attention to everyday details. The world may contain dragons, trolls, elves and dwarves, but gravitiy is still gravity. A fall from a height still hurts and/or kills. Neither The Lord of the Rings nor The Hobbit is the equivalent of a Bugs Bunny cartoon (although I would love to see Loony Tunes send-ups of either or both works). The ordinary people withing a fantasy world still live out their mundane lives--often rarely or never coming across the more extraordinary elements of their own world.

Yes, I agree about Smaug. Jackson and his team will be fiddling with the Dragon right up to the last minute.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 12 2013, 3:53pm)


Lindele
Gondor


Jun 12 2013, 3:50pm

Post #12 of 115 (613 views)
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Well speculation [In reply to] Can't Post

is ok but it is hardly fair to be so judgmental at this stage.
How do you know the Nazgul tombs are complete nonsense?
How do you know Smaug will be bad CGI? I'm guessing you watched the trailer (i'll point out 6 months before the film comes out) on a computer screen?

And if you haven't at the very least followed Doug Adam's works then I think it is completely unreasonable to accuse The Hobbit of rehashing music when not necessary. The score was very carefully constructed, and just because you don't get it does not mean that it doesn't work.


Misty Mountain Hop
Rivendell


Jun 12 2013, 3:55pm

Post #13 of 115 (589 views)
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Very good point [In reply to] Can't Post

I would have to simply say that these 3 Hobbit movies are going to be awesome, amazing, fantastic films that will be very enjoyable and beautiful. With that being said, as exciting as they will be, they aren't quite truly on the same level as LOTR, or what Tolkien would have wanted them to be.

Someone on the outside of all of this, who has never read the Hobbit or seen LOTR, might think these movies are awesome blockbuster films. But to those who understand more about Tolkien and his themes, they should really not be associated with "The Hobbit."

...and at the same time, it's all a matter of opinion. Either way, we don't really have a choice. These movies are going to be made the way they are no matter what, and we have to decide whether we like them or not.


malickfan
Gondor


Jun 12 2013, 4:06pm

Post #14 of 115 (559 views)
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Very True [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
and at the same time, it's all a matter of opinion. Either way, we don't really have a choice. These movies are going to be made the way they are no matter what, and we have to decide whether we like them or not.



I will reserve judegment (well, try to) until the finished film, but at the very least these hobbit films have made me appreciate why I love the original story so much in its origanal context, perhaps not what PJ wanted but any result is a posistive after my indifference to AUJ.


‘As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said ‘All is now ready.’

Perhaps the most fascinating Individual in Middle Earth



bborchar
Rohan


Jun 12 2013, 4:07pm

Post #15 of 115 (567 views)
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It's a kid's book... [In reply to] Can't Post

...not a holy document. And people take liberties even with those.



"And after every single person aboard your ship suffocates, I will walk over your cold corpses to recover my people."~John Harrison..?


Olorin2607
Lorien

Jun 12 2013, 4:10pm

Post #16 of 115 (566 views)
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I hate repeating it all over again. [In reply to] Can't Post

I know it because the Nine have never died. So this is nonsense. It's completely against the LOTR where even it is stated that the Ringwraiths are neither living nor dead.
And even when I accept PJ sying.. ok.. let's explain their transformation differently, it still makes no sense for them being imprisoned in the same tomb. I guess you saw the clip with Gandalf and Radagast?
The nine were kings of men from all over Middleearth.
And Smaug: I know it from the Trailer. I only judge that. I hope and think he will look more like in the league of Gollum in the movie.

As for the Music. The part where Thorin and Bilbo hug has the Gondor Reborn theme from ROTK, Thorin vs Azog the Nagzul theme. And Bilbo finding the ring has the ring theme, but NOT the beautiful variation of it that even is on the CD. It's the exact same as LOTR.
I call that rehashed or laziness.


(This post was edited by Nagini6 on Jun 12 2013, 4:12pm)


Lindele
Gondor


Jun 12 2013, 4:14pm

Post #17 of 115 (538 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

regarding the music,
it was done purposefully. Not lazy, not rehashed.
It is unfortunate that people see it that way though.
Someday it will all come together.


redgiraffe
Rohan

Jun 12 2013, 4:22pm

Post #18 of 115 (536 views)
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I've been trying to say this [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
As I mentioned earlier it depends on how flexible one is to the changes that we know are coming. There is a breaking point for everyone and its going to be different not to mention what one person thinks is too much might be ok for another. That's all part of the game.


To me it seems that people are forgetting that we all have different opinions of what is "true," over-the-top, cheesy, and bad/good CGI. Everyone is going to feel differently. There seems to be a recent lack of respect going around these boards since the trailer's release. We all have to remember that this is a community, and a great one at that. We're all here to share what we think.

-Sir are you classified as human
-Negative, I am a meat-popsicle


kareniel
Lorien

Jun 12 2013, 4:25pm

Post #19 of 115 (513 views)
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Mythologies are pliable. [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien's Middle-earth stories were written as a mythology for England. Mythologies become popular with future writers of stories, operas, poems, plays, movies, even comic books. It's okay! Take the Arthurian legend for instance. When Thomas Malory combined all the Arthurian stories he'd heard and read into Le Morte d'Arthur, he unknowingly provided future writers (Lord Tennyson, Mark Twain, T.H. White, Lerner and Loewe, Rosemary Sutcliff, Marion Zimmer Bradley, and Bernard Cornwell, among many others) a sort of tree trunk on which they could graft branches of new or newly imagined stories that got their nourishment from what he'd planted. The mythologies of many countries have been pruned and grafted to suit new listeners and new readers. It's what happens with myth. That's how it remains relevant. PJ's treatment of Middle-earth proves the solidity of the myth Tolkien created. I have loved every LOTR/Hobbit film, and - now that I've see the latest trailer - I am looking forward to exploring whatever branches PJ will graft onto the tree of myth Tolkien planted.


(This post was edited by kareniel on Jun 12 2013, 4:26pm)


Elessar
Valinor


Jun 12 2013, 4:38pm

Post #20 of 115 (490 views)
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I'm with ya on that. [In reply to] Can't Post

 



Welsh hero
Gondor


Jun 12 2013, 4:55pm

Post #21 of 115 (472 views)
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I liked some of the changes in Game of thrones [In reply to] Can't Post

allowed me to be supprise at a story I allready know

-Irfon

Twitter: @IrfonPennant
middle earth timeline FB: https://www.facebook.com/MiddleEarth1


emre43
Lorien

Jun 12 2013, 5:00pm

Post #22 of 115 (463 views)
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I agree OP, well said [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Elenorflower
Gondor


Jun 12 2013, 5:16pm

Post #23 of 115 (455 views)
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physics [In reply to] Can't Post

LOTR largely gave us physics we can recognize from our world. The physics from AUL are pretty unrealistic. The Dwarves seem made from rubber. Crushed by stone giants, squashed flat by Great Goblin, hundred foot drops and not a scratch, its cartoon time. Physics like gravity is not the same as magical creatures in fantasy, thats biology. I dont think anyone minds weird creatures in fantasy films unless they are zombie orcs with toasting forks in their arms.


jimmyfenn
Rohan


Jun 12 2013, 5:22pm

Post #24 of 115 (463 views)
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you miss the point entirely [In reply to] Can't Post

its not about accepting that changes are gonna happen, or staying true to tolkiem, we all know a movie is different, its how he got it so right (pretty much) with lotr as a film, but is tottally screwing up that legacy with the hobbit films.

everyone one i know who loves tolkien ,when i talk to them about the hobbit films they sort of look down embarrassed and say 'its good but its not the hobbit is it' and thats becuase they are making stuff up, simple. changes are fine, but making stuff up? they cant do it, its not working.

yeah there good films,but they had the material to make a great film. such a waste.and now well have to wait 30 odd years untill someone actually can make the hobbit like it should be.

10 years ago i saw the hobbit in the theatre, it was magical, they even had a giant smaug. how can all the money in the world gone so far off the plot.

i think becuase you only know tolkien through peter jackson maybe your more accepting of these changes, thats the danger of making hollywood films, things get diluted and the original message gets watered down

by accepting mediocracy wed never have middle earth in the first place.tolkine would have just wrote kids books and thats it. enjoy the films yeah, but dont pretend its the reason were here.

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro


Elenorflower
Gondor


Jun 12 2013, 5:23pm

Post #25 of 115 (457 views)
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I know the Nazgul tombs are complete nonsense [In reply to] Can't Post

because they didnt HAVE tombs.
How do I know Smaug is bad cgi? well because on my computer screen I compare him to other cgi dragons out there, and he is definately the most underwhelming, unless of course what we saw was not really Smaug but a zombie Smaug in his tomb.

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