Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
I watched the Hobbit last night: 2 Questions

axewielder
The Shire

Jun 10 2013, 6:48pm

Post #1 of 10 (451 views)
Shortcut
I watched the Hobbit last night: 2 Questions Can't Post

Both of them come from the White Council. I understand that PJ has changed a lot in his adaptation but there were two statements which were made that I wondered if any of you could elaborate on from the books' perspectives. First, they mention "400 years" of a hard won peace. What event started this peace? It clearly was not the Fall of Sauron for that was much longer ago. Second, did the the Witch King really get entombed and did that tomb have curses placed upon it? Any thoughts would be helpful.


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 10 2013, 7:09pm

Post #2 of 10 (283 views)
Shortcut
Answer to #2 [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't have the timeline with me and can't answer #1 (though I don't know what other peace they'd be talking about beyond Sauron's fall).

I can't think of any text reference to the Witch-King being entombed. When Sauron was defeated, the Nazgul went into hiding, but none were ever caught and trapped/entombed.


axewielder
The Shire

Jun 10 2013, 7:15pm

Post #3 of 10 (256 views)
Shortcut
yeah that seemed weird to me [In reply to] Can't Post

Because it appears that at least the dwarves did not have peace in the context of the movie with Smaug and then trying the battle outside of Moria with Azog. But I thought I had heard the watchful peace before hand... And I thought it was the Witch King who slowly but surely destroyed Arnor??? But I could be wrong...


(This post was edited by axewielder on Jun 10 2013, 7:15pm)


CuriousG
Valinor


Jun 10 2013, 7:39pm

Post #4 of 10 (224 views)
Shortcut
Yes, he definitely destroyed Arnor [In reply to] Can't Post

and he did it without being entombed. The villain got to ride away and reappear in Minas Morgul. Saying he was entombed was pure invention.

Here's a quick grab from the web on the Third Age events; can't be sure of its accuracy. According to it, The Hobbit adventure happens 400 years after the Battle of Celebrant, but that seems a stretch to me to say all that time was peaceful, because it wasn't. Another movie invention, I guess, so that non-book-readers get the sense that there's been a long peace that's about to be upset in a very big way with the open return of Sauron from his hiding places, which is true in a very vague way. I can see the necessity for the movie to condense and simplify history and build up the tension for coming conflicts. Going into all the details found in the books would be boring on screen.

Third Age

2: Battle of the Gladden Fields
1432: Kin-strife becomes open rebellion
1447: Battle of the Crossings of Erui
1945: Battle of the Camp
1975: Battle of Fornost
2509: Battle of the Field of Celebrant
2747: Battle of Greenfields
2799: Battle of Azanulbizar (part of the War of the Dwarves and Orcs)
2941: Battle of Five Armies

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/..._of_Arda#Third_Age_2


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 10 2013, 7:41pm

Post #5 of 10 (218 views)
Shortcut
I looked at that too Axewielder... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Both of them come from the White Council. I understand that PJ has changed a lot in his adaptation but there were two statements which were made that I wondered if any of you could elaborate on from the books' perspectives. First, they mention "400 years" of a hard won peace. What event started this peace? It clearly was not the Fall of Sauron for that was much longer ago. Second, did the the Witch King really get entombed and did that tomb have curses placed upon it? Any thoughts would be helpful.




The 400 years seems to be referring to the watchful Peace, but that was earlier than the previous, contiguous 400 years...perhaps a compaction, for ease of explanation?

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Jun 10 2013, 8:07pm

Post #6 of 10 (217 views)
Shortcut
Saruman is an unreliable narrator [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi axewielder and welcome to the Reading Room!

I think the other thing going on is that Saruman has his own schemes - they come to light in Lord of the Rings; & I don't know if you've read/watched that. Suffice to say, he's interested in delaying any action by the Council. (Let me know if im being too oblique here, but do say if you want us to a oid any lotr spoilers.)

So his "hard won peace" is a politician's peace: entirely consistent with the period including a dragon attack on Erebor.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


Jun 10 2013, 9:28pm

Post #7 of 10 (194 views)
Shortcut
As far as your first question... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's hard to tell exactly how the film version of the Watchful Peace began. I doubt the film-makers will go into any more detail about their version though, since they've drastically condensed the timeline of Sauron's re-emergence (by about 1900 years) and moved a bunch of events around to fit into the timeline of Bilbo's quest.

Tolkien's version of the Watchful Peace began in the year 2063 when a weakened Sauron first fled Dol Guldur (due to Gandalf investigating). The Watchful Peace ended in the year 2460, when Sauron arrived back in Dol Guldur. Bilbo's quest takes place in the year 2941, so The Watchful Peace ended 481 years before The Hobbit's timeline.


Elizabeth
Valinor


Jun 10 2013, 10:05pm

Post #8 of 10 (198 views)
Shortcut
Two answers: [In reply to] Can't Post

1. I think the "400 years of peace" was a bit of rhetorical shorthand. This question was recently discussed in this thread.

2. No. As others have mentioned, the Witch King was not entombed. This is a Jackson invention in aid of making the word "Necromancer" meaningful and enlarging the role of this character, who was a mere shadow in the book, for the purpose of expanding the movies and making a closer link to the LotR movies.








wildespace
The Shire

Jun 11 2013, 3:02pm

Post #9 of 10 (149 views)
Shortcut
400 years of the Watchful Peace [In reply to] Can't Post

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Watchful_Peace

Where exactly those 400 years fit in the PJ movie timeline is another question, but that's the 400 year peace they meant. The movie makes it look like the Necromancer has only just recently moved in and corrupted the forest, but in the books it's been hundreds of years.

The word "peace" may seem strange to many people, but it basically means "no word or sign of Sauron". What's a few orcs here and there...


Dirhaval
The Shire

Jun 11 2013, 11:17pm

Post #10 of 10 (197 views)
Shortcut
Watchful Peace [In reply to] Can't Post

The films need to twist the book to fit in the logic and history. One said it before here that Gandalf's first visit to Dol Guldur drove Sauron out 61 years after the fall of Minas Ithil.
The Witchking fled Arnor with Gondor and Glorifindel on his heels. That elf was the who prophesied in the manner of that nazgul's death. The entomb talk is just a mechanism
to illustrate the possible threat. If the Witchking is strong enough to destroy the North Kingdom, than who ever raised him is more powerful.
What surprises me is Galadriel's fear in the film! She's was born in Valinor. I bet Radagast will get killed in Dol Guldur; always a martyr.

 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.