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Of the Coming of Men into the West, I: "A chance meeting, as we say in Middle-earth".

sador
Valinor


Jun 10 2013, 7:11am


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Of the Coming of Men into the West, I: "A chance meeting, as we say in Middle-earth". Can't Post

I. Story Time


Quote
When three hundred years and more were gone since the Noldor came to Beleriand, in the days of the Long Peace, Finrod Felagund lord of Nargothrond journeyed east of Sirion and went hunting with Maglor and Maedhros, sons of Fëanor. But he wearied of the chase and passed on alone towards the mountains of Ered Lindon that he saw shining afar; and taking the Dwarf-road he crossed Gelion at the ford of Sarn Athrad, and taming south over the upper streams of Ascar, he came into the north of Ossiriand.



Isn't this a bit too much like Aredhel in the previous chapter? What is it about the Noldor noblepersons which entice them to ride alone, with no thought for security? Do they believe so much in Fingolfin's boast regarding the Siege of Angband being unbrerakable?
Or – is this a mythical device, preceding an unexpected discovery? If so, were both set approximately a hundred years before the Dagor Bragollach, as the period during which solitary roaming the mysterious, magical Elflands was conceivable?

So Finrod rides (I assume so – or did they hunt on foot?) to the foothills of the Mountains which none of the Noldor has yet crossed to the East, and suddenly –



Quote
… he saw lights in the evening, and far off he heard the sound of song. At this he wondered much, for the Green-elves of that land lit no fires, nor did they sing by night At first he feared that a raid of Orcs had passed the leaguer of the North, but as he drew near he perceived that it was not so; for the singers used a tongue that he had not heard before, neither that of Dwarves nor of Orcs.



And so the newcomers, the Atani, are discovered! Finrod watches them, and love for them stirs in his heart. He waits until they all fall asleep by the fire where none keeps watch – as if they did not come from a wide world infested by enemies, nor do they realize the dangers of leaving a fire alone!
Is this innocence a bit too much to be believable?
And what about the strange language? Later on, this chapter states that the first Men learned their speech from dark-elves – surely Finrod would have recognized it? Conversely, would he know the secret tongue of dwarves had he heard it?

A last question is regarding the sudden love that Finrod felt for them. In Arda Reconstructed page 157, Douglas Kane (Voronwë the Faithful) suggests this would have been better explained, had Christopher retained a sentence from the later Quenta Silmarillion, published in The War of the Jewels (HoME vol. XI) p. 216, which describes them as: "tall, and strong, and comely, though rude and scantily clad" and their camp as "well-ordered" (but what of the unkept fire?).
What do you think? Do you agree that the longer description should not have been omitted?
Just for the sake of completeness, I refer you to squire's critique of the description.

Once all are sound asleep Felagund, as he is called throughout this chapter (more of this below), takes up a rude harp which Bëor their chieftain had played before, and sings them a song in the Elvish tongue, which conjures up before the listening Men which awake a vision "of the making of Arda, and the bliss of Aman beyond the shadows of the Sea".
At first they believe him to be one of the Valar, of whom they had heard rumor – but he teaches them true lore. So they name him Nóm, which stands for "wisdom" in their language, and following that they name the Noldor Nómin, the Wise; and they take him for their lord.
What do you make of this "song of wisdom"? Is it a spell? How does it compare to similar songs Tolkien describes – The Lament of Galadriel Frodo hears? Legolas' peception of the Rohirrim's song when he first enters Edoras? To those who have read The Lost Road and/or The Notion Club Papers, the song of King Sheaf as a child? Any other parallels?

As Voronwë recently noted, this name for the Noldor is a throwback to his original name for them, "gnomes", which he had used throughout the first twenty years of his writing; thus becoming a retroactive justification for it's use, and for the inexplicable statement in chapter 3 (Of the Coming of Elves): "Next came the Noldor, a name of wisdom, the people of Finwë. They are the Deep Elves…"
Do you like this kind of "Tolkien-lore"? does it enhance you understanding, or appreciation of the professor's work? Or do you find this just boring obscuriatae?

Bëor, or Balan as he should still be named, tells Finrod quite a lot about two other migrating clans, which are heading west; however, he tells little (and probably knows little) of his people's history, saying only:



Quote
A darkness lies behind us, and we have turned our backs upon it, and we do not desire to return thither even in thought. Westwards our hearts have been turned, and we believe that there we shall find Light.


We will discuss this ominous darkness which lies behind Men in the next thread; but one question must be asked:
Is this credible – that the foremost leader of the first people to cross the mountains knows nothing of their history? Is he just a petty warlord, to which the folk-wisdom was simply not imparted? Or did he really keep his knowledge even from Finrod?


The Green-elves of Ossiriand are however very much displeased by the newcomers, so they beg Felagund to order them back, or to go on westward. So they move to the lands of Amrod and Amras, which they call Estolad, the Encampment. Felagund stays with them a year before returning to Nargothrond; but Balan their leader begs leave to come with him, committing the lordship of his folk to his son Baran. "In this way he got his name… for Bëor signified ‘Vassal’ in the tongue of his people".
Is this a name given out of affection? Is it a honorary title? Or is it the opposite – an expression of contempt? What do you think of this bold leader of free Men, going as the only specimen of his race to dwell among the lordly Elves?
Once again, how does this compare to other leaders who go to live among their betters – for instance, to Ingwë? Are there any other examples we know? And is the comparison valid – by which I mean, are the Elves as superior to Men as the Valar to them?
Or another idea – how does this compare to Bilbo, ending his life among the Elves? To Frodo taking ship? To Gimli?


II. Text and Tradition

1. King Felagund

It is noteworthy that Finrod is named in the chapter by his proper name only once, while he is called "Felagund" seventeen times, and "Finrod Felgund" twice more. This would make sense, had it been a name in the tongue of Men; but according to chapter 13, this is actually a dwarvish name, meaning "hewer of caves"!
Did you ever notice this? What do you make out of it?

Perhaps Tolkien was simply over-eager to introduce this name; but this was the original name for Finrod, supposedly in good Elvish; the using of an Elvish-sounding word for a dwarf-given appellate was just a "fortunate" coincidence ('caves' are about the one thing for which the dwarves would not need elvish help in naming!), much like the coincidence which made sense in the Mannish tongue of the name "gnomes" to the Noldor. Wink
However, the whole character of Felagund was introduced to be a "man-friend"; and it makes sense that he was also the one Elvish lord (with the possible exception of his sister) who treated dwarves generously. It would behoove us to look at the history of this character (not the person!) and how it evolved.
A fair warning: the next three paragraphs will attempt to sum up a very complicated topic; if you are uninterested in a HoME-based discussion of the evolving drafts, skip to the next section! Also, I might have gotten some of the facts wrong – if anyone catches a mistake, please correct me!

As far as I understood, Finrod was the last of Finwë's grandsons to be added to the Royal House. As late as the 1926 Sketch of the Mythology, he did not exist; however, in the Lay of Leithan (a long poem about the love and exploits of Beren and Lúthien), he had emerged – with his oath to Barahir, his argument with Celegorm and Caranthir, his combat with Sauron (at that point named Thú the Wizard) and his heroic death. In 1930, his meeting and befriending of Bëor was added, making him the patron of all the Edain; in the late 1950s, when Tolkien turned to explore the philosophical and theological ramifications of his secondary world, he made Finrod as the spokesman of the Elves in the Athrabeth. Other aspects of his character were added between 1930 and the writing of the Athrabeth – his rôle in the rebellion of the Noldor in the 1937 Quenta (The Lost Road, HoME vol. V page 234), as was the story of his founding of Nargothrond (ibid. p. 254); and his rôle as Thingol's senior Noldo relative in the post-LotR Grey Annals.
At first, his name was just Felagund; and he was conceived from the first to be a son of Finrod Fingolfin's brother, which stayed behind after the Curse of Mandos (he was added to the geneology sometime between the 1926 and the 1930 drafts – The Shaping of Middle-earth, HoME IV p. 15). However, in both the 1937 Quenta and the parallel Annals of Aman he was named "Inglor", a name which persisted until 1955, when it was printed in appendix F to The Lord of the Rings. However, this name was dropped soon after – as in the draft of the Athrabeth which Christopher dated to the latter half of the 1950s, the name "Finrod" was used, with Finarfin for the final name of his father; the second edition of LotR was corrected accordingly.

One important corollary of this account, is that when the first chapters of The Fellowship of the Ring was written, "Gildor Inglorion of the House of Finrod" was clearly intended to be Felagund's son!
Do you see any parallels between the two? All Gildor-fans – this is your opportunity!

I wonder what made Tolkien change his mind regarding Gildor, making him just one of the lords of Finrod's household. Or was his name left unchanged by mistake? Christopher probably did not think so, as he retained the story of Amarië, who did not follow Finrod to exile. But her story might have been not the cause of Gildor's "demotion", but rather both might have been side-effects of the same thing: Tolkien's shifting ideas regarding how to incorporate the last King of the High Elves to the Royal House of the Noldor, which I have discussed here.
In short, at first Gil-galad was said to have been a descendant of Fëanor, then Inglor's son (which would make him Gildor's older brother), then Fingon's, then Orodreth's – who according to later writings by Tolkien, was to be removed from Finrod's brother to his nephew, becoming the son of Angrod. When preparing The Silmarillion for publishing, Christopher was convinced that the Fingon-ancestry was his father's dominant idea, but later he has changed his mind.
At any rate – the character of Gil-galad was for a long time perceived as a heir of Finrod's in some way.
Do you see a connection between the two? Which?
And likewise, how did Finrod's character (which was more or less fully drawn before The Lord of the Rings was written) affect Tolkien's portrayal of his sister, Galadriel?


2. The long-awaited newcomers

If I may, I would like to return to the description of Finrod's first meeting with Men.
It closely parallels Oromë's first meeting with the Elves, in chapter 3:


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And on a time it chanced that Oromë rode eastward in his hunting, and he turned north by the shores of Helcar and passed under the shadows of the Orocarni, the Mountains of the East. Then on a sudden Nahar set up a great neighing, and stood still. And Oromë wondered and sat silent, and it seemed to him that in the quiet of the land under the stars he heard afar off many voices singing.
Thus it was that the Valar found at last, as it were by chance, those whom they had so long awaited. And Oromë looking upon the Elves was filled with wonder, as though they were beings sudden and marvellous and unforeseen; for so it shall ever be with the Valar.



Do you like this parallel? Or does it feel like overworking a theme?

The curious thing is that this theme was originally written for neither the awakening of Elves nor Men.
According to Tolkien's first conception in The Book of Lost Tales, Manwë suddenly knows that the Elves have awoken, while Varda is singing a joyous song (HoME vol. I, page 113); the tale of Oromë coming upon them is mentioned laconically in the 1926 and 1930 versions, and only described in the 1937 Quenta.
Men are found by the dark-elf Nuin, who serves the independent wizard Tú, greatest of all the spirits who dwell out of Valinor. Christopher did publish a draft of a really stunning description (pages 232-233):


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Suddenly afar off down in the dark woods a nightingale sang, and others answered palely afar off, and Nuin well-nigh swooned at the loveliness of that dreaming place…
Now did Nuin ascend deeper into the vale, treading softly by reason of some unknown wonder that possessed him, and lo, beneath the trees he saw the warm dusk full of sleeping forms…
Then seized with a sudden fear he turned and stole from that hallowed place… and Tú was little pleased thereat; nor any the more when Nuin made an end of his tale, telling of all he there saw – "and methought," said he, "that all those who slumbered were children, yet was their stature that of the greatest of the Elves."
Then did Tú fall into fear of Manwë, nay even of Ilúvatar…



More about Tú in the next thread; but here, I just note in passing another case of Tolkien using descriptions from discarded versions in different settings – the nightingales in the dark woods were later used in Thingol's bewitchment by Melian.
Any comments on this parallel? On Tolkien's system of re-using his own imagery? A riddle for HoME scholars: where did he re-use the BoLT description of Manwë and Varda's sudden knowledge that the Elves have come?

The origin of our descriptions of the arising of both Elves and Men is found in a short prose fragment describing the coming of the Noldor to Middle-earth, which Christopher dated to soon after The Book of Lost Tales. It was published in The Shaping of Middle-earth, pages 7-8:


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Now it happened that Fëanor got him beyond to the hills that girt Dor Lómin… and he had no small company and his three sons were with him. Thus came they on a day nigh evening to a hilltop, and afar off descried a red light leaping in a vale open… There they saw an armed company no less than their own, and they sat around a mighty fire of wood. The most were asleep, but some few stirred, and Fëanor stood then up and called…
Then a great clamour broke forth in the vale and the folk of Fëanor knew full soon that here were no elfin folk, by reason of their harsh voices and unlovely cries, and many arrows came winging in the dark towards that voice…


Shocked
Orcs! Comments?


3. The Laiquendi of Ossiriand

We have copied above the mysterious description of the Green-elves lighting no fires, and not singing after dark (does this make sense for Moriquendi, who abided in starlit Middle-earth before the first Sunrise?); we have also discussed the Green-elves in telain's thread.
To these curious traits, we must add their own reasons to shun Men, as given to Finrod:

Quote
For we desire no strangers in this land to break the peace in which we live. And these folk are hewers of trees and hunters of beasts; therefore we are their unfriends, and if they will not depart we shall afflict them in all ways that we can.



Based on these two descriptions – how do you imagine the Green-elves?
This question was raised in the previous discussion by Elizabeth; for your reference, see question 3 here.

The Green-elves appear once more in The Silmarillion: when Beren and Lúthien return from Mandos, they live among them in the land which is called Dor Firn-i-Guinar, the Land of the Dead that Live (the first paragraph of chapter 20).
I think that at this stage they assume a mythical, rather than a physical, dimension.
What do you think? How do they compare to the elfs found elsewhere in European myths? Is this apparent already in our chapter?
How do the Green-elves compare to (although as far as Tolkien writing is concerned, they draw upon) the mysterious wood-elves in Flies and Spiders (The Hobbit, ch. 8)? Or to the invisible spirit inhabiting the island in The Sea-Bell (The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, no. 15)?

'But my father loves them,' said Túrin, 'and he is not happy without them. He says that we have learned all that we know from them, and have been made a nobler people; and he says that the Men that have lately come over the Mountains are little better than Orcs.'
'That is true,' answered Sador; 'true at least of some of us. But the up-climbing is painful, and from high places it is easy to fall low.'

Who was right?
Join us in the Reading Room, for the discussion of Of the Coming of Men into the West, beginning on June 9!

(This post was edited by sador on Jun 10 2013, 7:14am)

Subject User Time
Of the Coming of Men into the West, I: "A chance meeting, as we say in Middle-earth". sador Send a private message to sador Jun 10 2013, 7:11am
    Wow, big post! Gonna keep me occupied for a while. wildespace Send a private message to wildespace Jun 10 2013, 8:45am
        P.P.S. wildespace Send a private message to wildespace Jun 10 2013, 9:37am
            Please don't! sador Send a private message to sador Jun 10 2013, 10:00am
                we cross-posted! noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 10 2013, 10:34am
                Better to break them up, I think CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 10 2013, 4:47pm
                    I'll try sador Send a private message to sador Jun 10 2013, 5:33pm
            don't worry, stick with it! :) plus organization of subthreads noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 10 2013, 10:33am
                Excellent idea, Wiz CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 10 2013, 5:06pm
            we've all been there! (here..., whatever) telain Send a private message to telain Jun 11 2013, 4:51pm
                I'm just befuddled by the sheer volume and intensity of the questions here. wildespace Send a private message to wildespace Jun 12 2013, 8:41am
                    As you wish CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 12 2013, 1:37pm
                    So am I! telain Send a private message to telain Jun 12 2013, 2:51pm
            Yes, please take a stab at your areas of interest CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 11 2013, 5:44pm
    Finrod, hunter of men and fire marshal PhantomS Send a private message to PhantomS Jun 10 2013, 3:20pm
    They certainly hit it off, unlike elves and dwarves... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 10 2013, 5:13pm
        Stonehenge was built by Elves? I thought it was Dwarves. :) // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 10 2013, 11:38pm
    17/1, Story Time A - Finrod rides alone sador Send a private message to sador Jun 10 2013, 5:40pm
        So firstly, Finrod on a hunt.... Lothwen Send a private message to Lothwen Jun 10 2013, 8:26pm
            Welcome to the Reading Room lothwen noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 10 2013, 8:41pm
            Welcome to TORn! sador Send a private message to sador Jun 11 2013, 12:40pm
        The Lone Ranger CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 11 2013, 12:02am
            Finrod's wanderlust telain Send a private message to telain Jun 12 2013, 4:44pm
                The Edain all look like Richard Armitage, and they are all scantily clad CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 12 2013, 5:14pm
                    shameless post to get Brethil and Maciliel involved! telain Send a private message to telain Jun 12 2013, 5:57pm
                        Fun to tease him CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 12 2013, 6:13pm
                            the teasing just proves that we love him! telain Send a private message to telain Jun 13 2013, 11:14pm
                                "This whole Silmarillion thing is all about waking up to the real "adult" world, isn't it? "- now that would be a fascinating discussion! Might you do a paper for the symposium, telain?// noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 14 2013, 7:56am
                                    (throws caution to wind) Oh, why not?! telain Send a private message to telain Jun 14 2013, 2:30pm
                                        I'm sure you'll make it great, Telain CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 14 2013, 2:32pm
                                            Love it! // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 14 2013, 2:34pm
                                Hmmm... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 14 2013, 12:26pm
                    Shameless indeed...! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 12 2013, 6:46pm
        Summary, and my own responses sador Send a private message to sador Jun 18 2013, 10:37am
    17/1, Story Time B - A mutual love sador Send a private message to sador Jun 10 2013, 5:43pm
        I love the obscure! CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 11 2013, 12:19am
        Love the Tolkien-lore! FarFromHome Send a private message to FarFromHome Jun 12 2013, 3:47pm
            and I love obscure Tolkien-lore! telain Send a private message to telain Jun 12 2013, 6:10pm
        one more point on the song of wisdom... telain Send a private message to telain Jun 13 2013, 10:40pm
        Summary, and my own responses sador Send a private message to sador Jun 18 2013, 12:07pm
            Great to read *your* thoughts Sador! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 18 2013, 8:39pm
                Thank you! sador Send a private message to sador Jun 19 2013, 7:25am
    17/1, Story Time C - Balan, or Beor if you wish sador Send a private message to sador Jun 10 2013, 5:45pm
        History and vassals CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 11 2013, 12:29am
        Darkness lies behind us Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jun 11 2013, 2:56am
            Hmm - hadn't thought of that. You mean "Darkness lies behind us" as in "we can't remember"?// noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 11 2013, 12:47pm
                No, as in "we choose not to talk about it". Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jun 13 2013, 2:46pm
        Summary, and my own responses sador Send a private message to sador Jun 19 2013, 9:50am
    17/1, Text and Tradition A - King Felagund sador Send a private message to sador Jun 10 2013, 5:46pm
        The serpentine history of the cave-hewer CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 11 2013, 12:58am
            Turgon Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jun 11 2013, 2:45am
                Turgon: not perfect, but... CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 11 2013, 12:37pm
                    Gondolin Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jun 13 2013, 2:40pm
                        Fall of Gondolin CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 13 2013, 7:26pm
                            The Fall of Gondolin Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jun 14 2013, 11:51pm
                        What a lovely and touching detail Ardamire!! // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 13 2013, 7:42pm
                            Here's the passage, Brethil. Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jun 14 2013, 11:37pm
                                Beautiful! // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 15 2013, 12:35am
                                    My pleasure! // Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jun 15 2013, 12:53am
                                That is tremendous CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 15 2013, 2:09am
                                    Isn't it though? Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jun 15 2013, 2:18am
        Gildor Finrodion? Felagundion? Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jun 11 2013, 3:15am
            as a fan of Gildor telain Send a private message to telain Jun 11 2013, 3:04pm
                Gildor and Galion Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jun 13 2013, 2:59pm
        Summary, and my own responses sador Send a private message to sador Jun 19 2013, 3:00pm
            Gil-galad Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jun 19 2013, 6:10pm
                Primogeniture vs "Other" CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 19 2013, 7:07pm
                    An interesting thought Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jun 20 2013, 3:36am
                Well, as a BoLT fan sador Send a private message to sador Jun 20 2013, 9:52am
                    Actually, I didn't remember that Ardamírë Send a private message to Ardamírë Jun 23 2013, 5:56pm
                    The empty title of High King CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 24 2013, 1:24am
            Great, nuanced distinction to make between Finarfin and Fingolfin CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 24 2013, 1:42am
        For the sake of completeness, regarding Galadriel sador Send a private message to sador Jun 20 2013, 10:11am
    17/1, Text and tradition B - The long-awaited newcomers sador Send a private message to sador Jun 10 2013, 5:49pm
        I like the sense of a repeating pattern… noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 10 2013, 8:54pm
        Summary, and my own responses sador Send a private message to sador Jun 20 2013, 1:33pm
    17/1, Text and Tradition C - The Laiquendi of Ossiriand sador Send a private message to sador Jun 10 2013, 5:54pm
        I'm beginning to see those green elves… noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 10 2013, 8:13pm
            The Greenelves do a massive Facebook cull... telain Send a private message to telain Jun 13 2013, 11:07pm
                The green elves' Facebook cull noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Jun 14 2013, 7:58am
                    The Prism of Melian is always watchful telain Send a private message to telain Jun 14 2013, 2:40pm
                        The relative metabolic needs of Elves and Men Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 14 2013, 2:52pm
                            Oh, good one... telain Send a private message to telain Jun 14 2013, 7:03pm
                                Skill vs weight + some enchantment thrown in CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 14 2013, 7:22pm
                                Its one of those 'assumed' things! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 14 2013, 8:26pm
                                    You mean the salt they spread on icy roads? CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 14 2013, 8:38pm
                                        Or the salt on the slippery mountain road... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 14 2013, 9:24pm
                        Yes, that's a big one CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 14 2013, 3:11pm
        Laiquendi CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 11 2013, 1:10am
            It wasn't much work sador Send a private message to sador Jun 11 2013, 12:52pm
        Summary, and my own responses sador Send a private message to sador Jun 20 2013, 3:10pm
    I like it as one post Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Jun 11 2013, 12:46am
        Thank you! sador Send a private message to sador Jun 11 2013, 12:48pm
            The more you break up your posts, the sooner you'll make it to Immortal status. // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 11 2013, 12:52pm
            Thank YOU! Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Jun 11 2013, 1:40pm
                Arda Recon is indeed most helpful CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 11 2013, 2:04pm
                    Thank you, kind sir! // Voronwë_the_Faithful Send a private message to Voronwë_the_Faithful Jun 11 2013, 3:15pm
    On Men and vassals Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 12 2013, 3:38pm

 
 
 

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