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cats16
Half-elven
Jun 9 2013, 10:30pm
Post #1 of 15
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Let's talk about our pals Gollum and Bilbo!
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I don't usually start new threads, but Ro's got me thinking a little differently today! Let's talk about our old pal, Gollum!! It seems like we've glossed over him over the past few months, by saying that he was 'just as great as ever' or 'looked great in terms of CGI'. But...how about his actual character development? What are we seeing during the Riddles in the Dark that stands out to us, based off of what we know from LOTR? What is his character arc looking like now, that we *most likely* won't see him again in this trilogy? Any visual motifs/callbacks that suggest his future? Other thoughts??
And how about Bilbo? What about how his encounter with Gollum, and the effect that it may have on 1) the rest of his journey with the dwarves, and 2) his life once he is "back again"? I wonder about the things that aren't said in the films, like what Bilbo thinks concerning Gollum's acquring of the Ring and what he did next. I'm sure it could have crossed his mind, as that's not an experience that one tends to stop pondering now and then...
There's so much time (give or take 60 years, really... ) that Bilbo is back home in the peace of the Shire. He must have done quite a bit of reflecting of his journey. I wonder what troubled him the most, though? Gollum? The deaths of his companions? If it were me, I'd have done a lot of thinking throughout those sixty years.
This is all really broad, but I'm interested as to what everyone's opinions are, and the conclusions we have drawn from the film! Even on just one of the characters.
Have fun with this!! What does everyone think??? 
(This post was edited by cats16 on Jun 9 2013, 10:36pm)
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jimmyfenn
Rohan
Jun 9 2013, 10:51pm
Post #2 of 15
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all these answers are in the book ;)
"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro
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Sinister71
Tol Eressea
Jun 9 2013, 11:52pm
Post #3 of 15
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Honestly i hope we don't see him again
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I think it makes his appearance much more poignant in FOTR when Frodo sees him in the mines of Moria. Not every character needs to be seen in all the films they should leave well enough alone.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jun 10 2013, 12:09am
Post #4 of 15
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He doesn't play any further role in events outlined in the story, so let sleeping dogs lie. I wouldn't mind a short prologue appearance, but I don't think it's at all necessary. That said, Gollum is very much the "face" of Jackson's Middle-earth franchise, and with Jackson's track record of altering events, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he somehow shoehorned Gollum into the story again.
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Elessar
Valinor
Jun 10 2013, 12:13am
Post #5 of 15
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The only way I want to see Gollum again is maybe towards the end of TABA of Gollum leaving the Misty Mountains. Depending on how that can be done/mixed in then if not leave it alone.
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Sinister71
Tol Eressea
Jun 10 2013, 12:20am
Post #6 of 15
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what purpose other than vanity would it really serve? It would at least to me seem forced and not necessary to tell Bilbo's story. I think the introduction of Gollum in FOTR was perfect, they should give us the next 2 films to basically almost forget Gollum so when he reappears it makes an impact still. But hey that's only my opinion.
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Elessar
Valinor
Jun 10 2013, 1:03am
Post #7 of 15
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That says they'd only put him in that sequence just to show off Gollum again. I don't think their vain like that anyways. I can see it being done to show that Gollum leaves to go looking for the ring like we know he does through the material that's out there. I agree there is something that is special about him being shown in the FOTR and I'm as much torn on this as I am with Aragorn making an appearance at the end of TABA.
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Sinister71
Tol Eressea
Jun 10 2013, 1:25am
Post #8 of 15
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no Aragorn either that would be a character that IMO would truly feel shoehorned in if they included him. All this time Viggo saying he is not going to be in it, there being nothing of him making an appearance and then all the sudden him showing up? it would really feel forced to me. I say best to leave that one alone too. I prefer the introduction to "Strider" in FOTR as well. I still think sleeping dogs should be left to lie.
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Elessar
Valinor
Jun 10 2013, 1:35am
Post #9 of 15
(158 views)
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on either to be honest. I'm 95% with you on leaving both out because of how special the moments both are in FOTR. So unless like I said it can be done in a way that keeps those moments special I'm with you in just leaving things as they are.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jun 10 2013, 2:01am
Post #10 of 15
(164 views)
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I don't usually start new threads, but Ro's got me thinking a little differently today! Let's talk about our old pal, Gollum!! It seems like we've glossed over him over the past few months, by saying that he was 'just as great as ever' or 'looked great in terms of CGI'. But...how about his actual character development? What are we seeing during the Riddles in the Dark that stands out to us, based off of what we know from LOTR? What is his character arc looking like now, that we *most likely* won't see him again in this trilogy? Any visual motifs/callbacks that suggest his future? Other thoughts??
And how about Bilbo? What about how his encounter with Gollum, and the effect that it may have on 1) the rest of his journey with the dwarves, and 2) his life once he is "back again"? I wonder about the things that aren't said in the films, like what Bilbo thinks concerning Gollum's acquring of the Ring and what he did next. I'm sure it could have crossed his mind, as that's not an experience that one tends to stop pondering now and then...
There's so much time (give or take 60 years, really...) that Bilbo is back home in the peace of the Shire. He must have done quite a bit of reflecting of his journey. I wonder what troubled him the most, though? Gollum? The deaths of his companions? If it were me, I'd have done a lot of thinking throughout those sixty years.
This is all really broad, but I'm interested as to what everyone's opinions are, and the conclusions we have drawn from the film! Even on just one of the characters.
Have fun with this!! What does everyone think???
In particular I think that your point about Bilbo mulling back in the Shire, about Gollum....I wonder if as the Ring became dearer and more an obsessive focus to him, he felt a sense of the loss Gollum was feeling. Especially when times were quiet and maybe a bit lonely. I wonder too, if he doesn't really miss the Company, and think of Thorin and Fili and Kili - I get that feeling, when we see Bilbo before the Party, walking through Bag End: that's where they sang the song about the Mountains, that's where the dishes went flying...and then about them, sixty years in their graves. Might feel homey, but maybe a bit sad sometimes, with some old ghosts hanging about - again, when its quiet more so.
I think the closing shot of Gollum is a great leave-off point! That much feeling will hold him over for the sixty years, and when he reappears above Frodo and Sam in TTT its a beautiful continuity - he's still just as mad! Perfect.
Neat thread Cats!
Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 10 2013, 2:14am
Post #11 of 15
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A respectable hobbit and one gone very, very wrong
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I don't normally write on The Hobbit board, Cats, so this makes us even. You asked some interesting questions.
Gollum: LOTR vs TH? I thought AUJ was good at showing him in his element. He was in control of the situation and they both knew it. The camera work combined with the way he moved around created that strong impression for me. Whereas in LOTR he's not as sinister, more pathetic, and more sneaky because he's out of his element in the big, open world that he can't dominate like his little cave. And of course he lost the Ring, which gave him a sense of control living in his cave and feeding off of orcses and fishes.
I'm guessing most people will see the LOTR movies before AUJ, but if someone started with AUJ and then saw LOTR, what do you think their impression would be? Would they wonder how Gollum wound up in Moria and how he was able to track Frodo and where he'd been all the years in between? Or would they just think, "There's that funny, creepy guy again! Is he going to play riddles with Frodo?"
Bilbo: Though his encounter with Gollum is iconic and the foundation for an epic, within the story of TH, I think Bilbo would brush it off as just another monster adventure like the trolls. He has more monsters to come in the next 2 movies, and unless he has flashbacks to Gollum (possible, and maybe when he puts the Ring on), I think the memory would fade when he's back in Bag End writing his memoirs. It seems like he'd remember it was a close call, and be a little proud of himself that he'd managed to stay alive in the riddle game (and after it), but otherwise I think he'd reflect on the Ring and the Dwarves and yes, the friends of his who died. Everything is so innocent in the Shire. Of course people die there, but you don't get the feeling that death is present, just that people are prosperous and peaceful. When Bilbo ventures out into the world, he confronts a lot of violent deaths he'd never see in the Shire. That has to change him. How much do you think the last movie will show of him back in the Shire? I think we curious fans would like to see him settle back into his life there, but I have to admit that would make the movie boring if they went into detail. I'll guess it will be just a few scenes to give a quick overview.
Thanks for bringing up the topic.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 10 2013, 2:24am
Post #12 of 15
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I think the closing shot of Gollum is a great leave-off point! That much feeling will hold him over for the sixty years, and when he reappears above Frodo and Sam in TTT its a beautiful continuity - he's still just as mad! Perfect. I agree. The movie without a doubt got the continuity right: he's a crazy, subterranean creature that talks to himself and makes funny noises, and did I mention he's crazy? He's not exactly a standard movie character like a beautiful doctor or an eccentric scientist, so you can't plop him in another movie and expect a general audience to nod and think, "Yeah, there's the usual, crazy, self-talking cave creature." For that matter, I've seen plenty of sequels where using the same, non-cgi actor in the same role just doesn't seem like the same character. I think it was a combo of the lighting, his semi-snakelike movements, the horrible grimaces, and of course his voice that set him up well in AUJ for people to connect with in LOTR.
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Roheryn
Tol Eressea
Jun 10 2013, 3:18am
Post #13 of 15
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Oh, dear...you know you're in trouble...
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when Ro has got you thinking!
I was actually thinking about Gollum last night, watching the EE of TTT. His CGI in AUJ has come so far; we thought it was well-done back in TTT and ROTK, but that looks primitive now. I couldn't begin to nail down the technicalities, but he certainly looks more realistic now.
But that doesn't really answer your questions.
I thought he was played with an innocence and child-like quality -- at least in his Sméagol side -- that we don't see in LOTR. Sure, the other half of that innocent childlike creature stones goblins to near-death and then skins them alive, but a Gollum has to eat now, doesn't it, precious? I don't think he's wretched, yet. That wretched patheticness comes only after he's lost the ring, and ventures forth to hunt down Baggins, and is tortured in Minas Morgul. What would have happened to him had he not lost the ring? Or had he given up and never ventured forth to hunt for it? Would he have found some modicum of peace, or would the ring's lingering effects have twisted and tortured him anyways? Bilbo found some measure of peace once he let the ring pass to Frodo; I like to think Gollum could have too, had things been otherwise.
I think Bilbo grew up a fair bit after his encounter with Gollum. It was his own little mini-adventure, without Dwarfish or Wizardly support, and he came through it unchanged, and richer for the ring. That's got to be a big confidence-builder. Surely the memory of getting out of that situation unharmed has some influence over him when he agrees to go down the tunnel to have his chat with Smaug.
Do you think Bilbo has any inkling that the acquisition of the ring is what led Gollum to seek a dark, isolated existence in the roots of a mountain? Not sure he's putting two and two together like that yet. But if he did have such an inkling, I wonder if he would worry that the same fate could befall him. He's sensible enough to worry about such things, perhaps, before the evil of the ring could hold sway.
Great questions, cats16. Thanks for sharing!
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Yngwulff
Gondor
Jun 10 2013, 5:03am
Post #14 of 15
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I don't see Bilbo dwelling on Gollum too much other than reflecting on how he outwitted him and got himself out of a tight spot.
Gollum is ate up with it half of what comes ot of his mouth would be consumed with his building hate for the "Bagginses who stole his precious".
The only way I could see Viggio as Aragorn in any of the films would be an epilogue for TABA where its hows Gollum leave the caves and shows how he tracked him down and possibly meets Legolas.
Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!
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cats16
Half-elven
Jun 10 2013, 6:13am
Post #15 of 15
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I've also been thinking about people who've seen LOTR first vs. TH first, and their differing experiences. You've got some really interesting points regarding Gollum in both trilogies. I hope people may wonder where he had been for all of those years, and try to start reading the books to discover it! So I know that because the films don't show everything, they potentially draw in curious fans that want to learn more of the history.
It's pretty hard for me to think about the end of TABA, especially because I feel that PJ will really want this to be a meaningful finale to his journey as a filmmaker in ME. Too much, and people complain of too many endings (ROTK). Too little, and there's an outcry for closure. The happy medium, if pulled off, will really make this an incredible end to my favorite franchise.
Thanks CuriousG
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