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Roheryn
Tol Eressea
Jun 9 2013, 9:43pm
Post #1 of 75
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Once upon a time...
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we had a movie board that was a pleasant place to play. Negativity was the exception not the rule. Criticism happened, but usually constructively. Flame wars happened, but usually on Main, and though tempers flared hot, they were usually fairly entertaining and after the flames burned out we got on with normality. Most people spent more than a nanosecond thinking before posting. Well, most of us, usually. Words like "stupid" and "lame" pretty much never cropped up, and certainly not with any regularity. I'm tired of this and I know I'm not the only one. I know the atmosphere there can be significantly better. It used to be.
What happened, and what can we do about it?
The standard response of "If you don't like what's being posted, post something you DO like" is helpful, and worth us remembering, but is there more we can do? Or can we at least suggest to those who are considering posting something heading in the right direction to stop just thinking about it and DO it?
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Magpie
Immortal
Jun 9 2013, 10:23pm
Post #2 of 75
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I apparently cannot accurately read the tone of most posters there and I get it wrong more often than not.
And I, who has been cursed with some sort of compulsion to speak honestly, usually can't find any way to respond to many posts unless it's negatively. I've spent way too many years asking children to step up and become responsible citizens and it's just not in me to stand by and watch behavior unbecoming a good citizen without saying something. And most of what I have to say on those matters either can't be said or won't, in the long run, do any good.
And sometimes, I not only feel like I don't want to expose myself to the negativity, I feel like I don't even want to be associated with it... that is, I don't want people whose opinion I would value to think I was a member of 'that place' where 'those people' indulge in comments approaching defamation of character.
Like I said elsewhere, it's all kind of jumped the shark for me. I think things will ebb and flow but I have pretty much accepted that what I believe is a standard for common courtesy, civil discourse, and a tempered tongue when speaking about others will not happen on the Hobbit boards as long as the movies are hot topics. Mods, you are - everyone of you - spectacular people and gifted at handling things. But what I seek and require in terms of tone is not going to happen on that board. I am all but convinced of it.
I will likely continue to check Hobbit threads. I will likely post a comment here and there. But I can't even tell you how many times I've made a sincere effort to respond to something only to feel that, no matter what I say, I'll regret it so I've closed the window without hitting 'reply.' And I can tell you that half the times I thought I could say something and posted, I did regret it.
It takes me awhile to learn but I do learn.
I do not have the social capability to fit into the climate on that board.... said with a detached, clinical assessment. It is what it is.
LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide
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Aragalen the Green
Gondor
Jun 9 2013, 11:04pm
Post #3 of 75
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And me...and Roheryn...and all the others who are willing to answer seriously, and sometimes with humor, to let others know they have a voice too. We need to be role models for good behaviour. I avoid the heated discussions in general, but add my two cents if I think it'll do some good (or even not), but try to be as positive as possible. Hope this makes sense. 
'"Never laugh at live dragons, Bilbo you fool!" he said to himself, and it became a favourite saying of his later, and passed into a proverb.'
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 9 2013, 11:10pm
Post #4 of 75
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is why people who don't like The Hobbit movie even bother to post? I only thought it was okay (I liked the LOTR movies a lot), so I don't spend time on the board. I checked a few Hobbit threads this afternoon, and I see what you mean about how contentious some people are, and how many people seem to be there to bash the movie. I suppose it's a rhetorical question, but don't people who dislike the movie have somewhere else they'd rather be?
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Roheryn
Tol Eressea
Jun 9 2013, 11:47pm
Post #5 of 75
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Like Aragalen said, we need people like you: people who actually bother to think before they post. And people who can model good behaviour. I would love to see more posts from you -- I always especially love it when you have something to say on the music -- and I think it's a real, horrid shame that you (and you're not alone) find yourself shying away from the Hobbit board.
And that is *exactly* the problem I'm decrying: why have we let it get to this point and what can we do about it? You've hit it right on the head with this: that "a standard for common courtesy, civil discourse, and a tempered tongue when speaking about others" is lacking -- and *that's* what needs fixing. It's really a shame that the Hobbit board has devolved so much.
Why can't we insist on common courtesy, civil discourse, and a tempered tongue when speaking about others, whether characters in the movie, cast members, others associated with the movie, or each other?
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Roheryn
Tol Eressea
Jun 9 2013, 11:52pm
Post #6 of 75
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is one I keep asking too. Don't they have something better to do? We need not all like it, nor need those of us who like or love it need like or love all parts of it -- but isn't it healthier, really, to spend time dwelling on things one *does* like rather than things one professes to hate?
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 10 2013, 12:36am
Post #7 of 75
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Perhaps because they enjoy the book
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and want to talk with someone about their disappointments with the film - which is entirely appropriate for TORN.
Discussing why a person does or doesn't like the film isn't the problem; it's the tone and language used that can cause a difficult atmosphere on the discussion board. And I'm looking at both the lovers and the dissers here.
Most of the recent difficulties would be avoided if more people dealt with each other with respect.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jun 10 2013, 12:57am
Post #8 of 75
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My feelings tilt your way CG...
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is why people who don't like The Hobbit movie even bother to post? I only thought it was okay (I liked the LOTR movies a lot), so I don't spend time on the board. I checked a few Hobbit threads this afternoon, and I see what you mean about how contentious some people are, and how many people seem to be there to bash the movie. I suppose it's a rhetorical question, but don't people who dislike the movie have somewhere else they'd rather be?
I see Ataahua's point about sharing one's potential disappointment, and how its appropriate. But a large part of me wants to be here to enjoy the fun and joy these films can bring...and its uncomfortable to feel like one is not allowed to be happy, or joyful, or that somehow it makes you less discerning or intelligent if you enjoyed the film, because there is such an aggressively unhappy faction.
As others have said, like Magpie, I have seriously curtailed heading over to TH because of feeling...out of place. (Granted the RR keeps me quite happily busy). I'm trying to be open-minded...but I might be short-sighted because it is hard for me to understand as well why anyone wishes to dwell so much on something they clearly hate. I think it may be the case for many people who feel positively, or even neutrally: its just too exhausting and upsetting to risk wading in, so by default the negativity swamps everyone else. I find my usual motivation to post at all in TH is to offer support to someone pinned down, instead of having fun, with rare exceptions - such as a thread hosted by or filled with people I feel I can trust and who seem happy to be here.
Sadly I don't know what the solution is. As our Modar have correctly said, respect will certainly help. I would like to see it in all forms, towards each other and towards our Modar as well.
Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."
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cats16
Half-elven
Jun 10 2013, 1:44am
Post #9 of 75
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I've been thinking about signing off for awhile, in hopes that things settle down after a bit. I'll be reading The Sil, HOME, and Unfinished Tales this summer (as well as rereading LOTR), so I hope I can take part in the awesome threads in the RR soon! I tried, on a whim, to start a decent conversation in TH, about characters most of us seem to love (or at least appreciate). But I still haven't gotten an actual response to what I had posted. I'm not taking it personal that no one has given a response, of course! That, I have no concern over. It's the responses that I have gotten, which, in the past (not saying this one will, because it shouldn't) could have devolved into inappropriate banter back and forth about our opinions about particular thing.
I try to keep every single post positive. And before I hit "post reply", I check it for its tone. If it seems condescending or negative, I change it or delete it altogether. Because it is so easy for things to be misinterpreted on the Internet, whether one knows it or not.
I think I'll stick it out here, regardless, but perhaps with more caution on which threads I choose to read and/or participate in.
Looking forward to joining you all in the RR soon!!
Edit: Of course, Ro and Maciliel have gotten good conversations going recently, so I don't mean to sound like I'm condemning TH board by any means. Just a recent trend that I wanted to comment on.
(This post was edited by cats16 on Jun 10 2013, 1:48am)
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jun 10 2013, 1:51am
Post #10 of 75
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We'd love to see you too soon, Cats!
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Wonderful to hear about your foray into some of the other works, we can't wait to see you in the RR!  And I do always note your positiveness, and it is appreciated!!!
Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."
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Roheryn
Tol Eressea
Jun 10 2013, 3:03am
Post #11 of 75
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there's a handful of people on movie who don't seem to enjoy anything except negativity. Maybe I haven't read enough of their posts, but if they actually enjoy the books, I'm not aware of it.
I agree heartily that well-reasoned discussion -- or completely inane silliness -- and lots of things in between -- whether for or against the movie or somewhere in between -- aren't the problem. It's the frequent cries of "That's lame!" "That sucks!" "PJ's arrogant!" "Tauriel makes me puke!" "That's stupid!" and so on that I find disheartening. I feel like we're in a 7th-grade (year 8) classroom filled with young adolescents that can't take the time to think through their ideas before mudslinging. Nothing against 7th-graders, mind. They're certainly capable of thinking clearly, especially if adults make expectations clear.
Not all people who post in TH board are like that, of course, by any means; but the vocal few who are tend to dominate discussions and cause those who aren't like that to withdraw. And that's what really makes me sad. No board here should have an average tone that causes people, many of whom would have some very nice thoughts and ideas to share, to withdraw.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 10 2013, 3:34am
Post #12 of 75
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We're trying to moderate that, and it will take a bit of time to bed in.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Elessar
Valinor
Jun 10 2013, 4:03am
Post #13 of 75
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You know my feelings on things. :)
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I'm a really positive person and I enjoy that type of talk but I also like to talk about somethings in balance with things maybe I didn't enjoy. I think its all about balance in the discussion that makes the discussion great. I just don't think there is the proper balance right now in that section and it does drain the enjoyment of talking about the movie. I know for me its why I feel like I've backed off lately.
Edit: I know for me I'm very careful to make sure the tone of my posts are respectful. I honestly get a bit scared that I'm not coming off the way I want.
(This post was edited by Elessar on Jun 10 2013, 4:04am)
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 10 2013, 5:42am
Post #14 of 75
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Because they are hot, exciting topics
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These movies are happening now, and everyone is excited about them - the Jackson-lovers, the Jackson-haters, and some who did have hopes and were disapoointed. It happens.
On the LotR-movie board this doesn't happen much, because most people have enough self-respect not to go trolling at a board dedicated to a 10-years-old movie. We would get the occasional troll, and the mods would take care of him/her/it; and there would be quite a few genuine Tolkien-fans, which started at the LotR-movie board to establish their credentials as true purists. Often they were nudged towards the RR; some of them have actually stayed there (and in other TORn fora) and become valuable, well-liked and respected contributors. Those who really care about Tolkien know that there is much much more to him than bilous negativity directed at a poor (actually, quite rich ) NZ director.
But the Hobbit-movies are happening now; you just can't expect this kind of detachment.
'But my father loves them,' said Túrin, 'and he is not happy without them. He says that we have learned all that we know from them, and have been made a nobler people; and he says that the Men that have lately come over the Mountains are little better than Orcs.'
'That is true,' answered Sador; 'true at least of some of us. But the up-climbing is painful, and from high places it is easy to fall low.'
Who was right?
Join us in the Reading Room, for the discussion of Of the Coming of Men into the West, beginning on June 9!
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cats16
Half-elven
Jun 10 2013, 5:55am
Post #15 of 75
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I'm really looking forward to finally having a little free time to delve into Tolkien more. I'll be sure to post some relevant observations once I'm underway.
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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven
Jun 10 2013, 6:00am
Post #16 of 75
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In December 2003, unable to comprehend the box office success and critical praise the LOTR films had garnered, I came to TORN looking for someone else who might understand my disappointment.
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Discuss Tolkien's life and works in the Reading Room!
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Starling
Half-elven
Jun 10 2013, 6:12am
Post #17 of 75
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And I consider you to be a role model
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for how to voice that disappointment in a civilised manner.
Would you consider providing tutorials? 
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Kelvarhin
Half-elven
Jun 10 2013, 6:18am
Post #18 of 75
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It really is a shame that the negative posters on TH board haven't learnt from your example.
I really wish they could be more respectful of others opinions *sighs*
Bag ENZ Home of the Hobbit *with thanks to cameragod ;D*
 
One by one they faded, and fell into shadow...
One book to rule them all
One book to find them
One book to bring them all
And in TORn bind them
In the land of TORnadoes...where the brilliant play
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Starling
Half-elven
Jun 10 2013, 6:22am
Post #19 of 75
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Without wishing to do too much hand-wringing
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I do worry about it a bit.
The thing that concerns me is the kind of thing Magpie talked about: that people who might provide a little balance in The Hobbit board become more and more likely to stay away, or feel driven away. After a while, the not so lovely tone could become normality, without those who provide a balance, both in view and in tone. I really hope that doesn't happen.
I, too, believe the mods here do an amazing job. This is a really special place, a real community.
All of us know of discussion boards out there which are downright horrible.
But that won't be us. Because we won't let it happen.
So bring on the silliness and random threads of positivity I say!
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imin
Valinor
Jun 10 2013, 7:37am
Post #20 of 75
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I have been a member here for a year and a bit
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And in that time i don't really think the hobbit boards have changed much in terms of atmosphere. There are periods where things get a little more heated and times when things are more chilled out but unless it has got much worse the last few days i think it has always been about the same.
This is going to happen though - it's the new thing compared to the books or the lotr movies so it has more traffic and comments. Also at this point in time if people don't like the lotr movies - a comment is simply 'i don't like them' where as with AUJ there is more explanation behind it.
I think it would be fair to say there are more people who dislike AUJ than any of the LOTR movies and this means the people who dislike the movie are not being drowned out by people in love with the films.
I don't think things will change unless DoS is seen as a better movie by a bigger majority of people.
I dunno maybe we should have 2 AUJ forums? One for people who loved every minute of it and one for those who thought it was rubbish.
'What's the matter with you?' - J.R.R. Tolkien
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dik-dik
Lorien
Jun 10 2013, 9:07am
Post #21 of 75
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The first paragraph of your post had me thinking.
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I am wondering now if the number of critics -and specifically, the annoyed critics- is higher now with TH than it was back in the days when LotR was in cinemas. I don't think there's a way to find out. Myself, I cannot even speculate, as I am one of those who joined the fandom shortly before RotK was released. :) But *if* there is a higher number of angry critics these days, I am wondering if it can be that many people became Tolkien fans thanks to the LotR movies, read all the books they could get their hands on, and became attached to them. Might it be that a number of people read the LotR books after they saw the LotR films (thus seeing them without any prior knowledge and expectations), but with The Hobbit, most people had already read the book (and possibly the Appendices as well), and thus had a clear idea of what should be in TH movies, getting annoyed when the movie(s) differred from their expectations?
Just thinking aloud here.
I don't have much to contribute to the topic of forum decorum, as I seem not to handle all situations well either. 
"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 10 2013, 12:15pm
Post #22 of 75
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heya, cats : )
thanks for pointing out that ro and i made recent threads on the hobbit board with an eye to offer a more positive, interesting tone..... if more people did this, we'd at least have more of a balance --- thoughtful, polite posters would have those threads, and could more easily ignore the unpleasant ones. but i also know how discouraging it can be, as the first couple of responses to my thread were not about what idea i was proposing discussing, but just replies of a "hate it" variety. so a lot of folks really do understand what you're describing, and you're in a strong majority, methinks.
can't wait to see you and hear your thoughts in the reading room!!!! it's really an entirely different atmosphere in there, and we'd love to have you join the fellowship of the room (a phrase coined by, i think, nowizard me, whom i call "nowime," because i think it sounds more "quenya" : ) ).
and, if i may suggest, don't wait to pop up in the reading room... i think i gather that you have read the hobbit, and you definitely have read lord of the rings, so you have +more than enough+ upon which to draw.
all you need in the reading room is to have read one of the books, and have an opinion.
please, please : ) do let us see you over there.... perhaps right now. : ) no need to wait. : )
many cheers, and thanks for your contributions to torn.
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Magpie
Immortal
Jun 10 2013, 1:13pm
Post #23 of 75
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"someone else who might understand (your) disappointment." ?
I've always considered you just as entrenched a member of TORn as anyone who squees like gramma. And I've never sensed any animosity from you toward any of us and I hope that none of the regulars around before the Hobbit hit ever directed animosity toward you.
But here's what I sense from your post above that makes you a bit different: I think you came looking for answers. Willing to listen as well as speak, your mind is open and I think your 'agenda' (the thing you were seeking... we all have 'agendas') was much different than many people that are vexing me.
Also, I know you have the ability to speak your concerns intelligently, never giving an inch on what you think and feel, while still remaining civil and courteous. I have never taken offense at one thing you've said.
And, I actually feel a bit closeted because, although I like the LOTR movies very much and they were a gateway to a community and experience I value... I do not approve of everything Jackson does and some of those things I don't like bother me more all the time. And I just can't find it in my heart to love AUJ. Meh... is how my son would put it. It was alright as a 3 hour experience but I don't ever *crave* to go back to it and I have some concerns about the next two movies.
So it's not that I don't agree with critics of the movie that makes me dislike the tone. I just can't abide open rudeness and sustained ranting and negativity and overstated dramatics. It all ranks one step below fingernails on a chalk board to me. I can talk about a lot of things if the conversation is either enjoyable or intelligently and respectfully framed. Once the discussion turns to exaggerations and defamation and remains stuck in one contentious rude tone... I have zero interest.
In countering that ... I sought to put TORn back to what it used to be: civil. I sought to point out to some people that they were being a bit ridiculous hoping they'd snap out of it. (And there for awhile, I specifically sought out some of those people to find an opportunity to be pleasant with them hoping it would reframe the relationships they were having here in hopes they would find a way to communicate that wasn't so aggressive and contentious. It didn't work.) But my confronting them was the wrong thing to do. So, it either remains for me to put up with it or leave that coffee house for another place to congregate.
I'll go have coffee with you in a heartbeat, NEB.
(I am critically late for getting ready for work and I know I have typos in there that I can't correct. Forgive me for my lack of proofreading!)
LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide
(This post was edited by Magpie on Jun 10 2013, 1:16pm)
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geordie
Tol Eressea
Jun 10 2013, 2:43pm
Post #24 of 75
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jun 10 2013, 2:57pm
Post #25 of 75
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This is what I was thinking...
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maybe we should have 2 AUJ forums? One for people who loved every minute of it and one for those who thought it was rubbish.
There are a handful of us (myself included) who want to vent our frustrations to other like-minded people on these boards, but I understand that many fans of Jackson don't want to hear what they perceive as negativity toward the film they love. So maybe there can be a separate criticism thread where people can vent their frustrations without the fans of the movies having to read them?
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