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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 8 2013, 5:21pm
Post #326 of 381
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Also doesn't do what she's supposed to: Setting out as part of Théodens host is pretty selfish. She thinks she's been left to guard the home front because she's not seen as good enough for anything else: I've wondered whether instead Théoden knows he needs a steady officer there, and that she alone would be able to hold it together to give a defeated Rohirrim somewhere to regroup.
Éowyn story also climaxes in a Dramatic self-sacrificing act (though she survives fighting the Witch King, as opposed to taking the poisoned spear and dying).
We are closer in to the action & can see what's driving Éowyn: if her story was told i the far-off style of the Sil. Maybe we'd think Éowyn chilly too?
wow, interesting point about the style of storytelling influencing how we might perceive eowyn (and aredhel) (!)
i +do+ think aredhel would look better in another format. upthread i envisioned her looking more complex and sympathetic (but not without fault) as a film character, but -- as you say -- even just a shift in writing style would probably give her a better presentation.
and i really think eowyn might suffer if given the reverse style. she indeed might come off as more chilly (not the least for her choice of wardrobe color).
i absolutely agree.... eowyn +abandoned+ her charge. the people left behind needed someone to lead them, both while the king was off fighting +and+ in case he and eomer didn't come back. also, as you say, if things went horribly wrong, sauron's forces would be sweeping towards rohan, and they would need a leader for that, who had some military sense.
i think theoden king did not want eowyn at the battle for a few reasons:
1. don't put all the royal eggs in one basket
2. need a fall back position, with someone capable in charge
3. he loves eowyn, and wants to protect her
... but in all the talk of eowyn, we really never hear a lot of complaining or accusation that she was derelict in her duty (which she was) -- because she was so kick-ass in the battle. this is +very+ much how male iconoclasts are treated. which is neat to observe.
great point, mr. pointy! great post!
cheers : )
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 8 2013, 5:48pm
Post #327 of 381
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Yep: we like Éowyn, and her actions work out well...
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But I did suggest a literal minded authority would want to court marshalling her! (as part of the Law and Arda discussion http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=608522#608522 )
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 8 2013, 5:51pm
Post #328 of 381
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to even read that thread, much less respond... am looking forward to doing so when my hostatrix duties for sil discussion are transferred to the next chapter ("of the coming of men into the west" -- did i get the wording right?), with sador.
so many great threads in the reading room!!! can't keep up!!! : )
+lmdao+ at court-marshalling eowyn! +totally+ legit. : )
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 8 2013, 6:28pm
Post #329 of 381
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It was a good thread: worth checking out when you're not performing your -trix //
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Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 8 2013, 6:39pm
Post #330 of 381
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A big contrast point between Éowyn and Aredhel...
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A big contrast point between Éowyn and Aredhel is that Éowyn's actions in her Dernhelm stunt are those of a desperate person. The court should blame that on the psychological warfare of the Enemy, which was terrifically potent - as we know from its effect on the late King Theoden. My sister officer has a long record of impeccable service, and moreover has no intention of becoming Dernhelm again.
Contrast: As far as I read , Aredhel wants to leave Gondolin only out of boredom and regret at being unable to see her friends.
(Aredhel may be more desperate when she undertakes the return journey. )
Since Aredhel does not survive taking the javelin for Maeglin, we don't learn her future intentions.
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jun 8 2013, 8:26pm
Post #331 of 381
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Nicely delineated Furuncurunir
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A big contrast point between Éowyn and Aredhel is that Éowyn's actions in her Dernhelm stunt are those of a desperate person. The court should blame that on the psychological warfare of the Enemy, which was terrifically potent - as we know from its effect on the late King Theoden. My sister officer has a long record of impeccable service, and moreover has no intention of becoming Dernhelm again.
Contrast: As far as I read , Aredhel wants to leave Gondolin only out of boredom and regret at being unable to see her friends.
(Aredhel may be more desperate when she undertakes the return journey. )
Since Aredhel does not survive taking the javelin for Maeglin, we don't learn her future intentions.
I see your point very well (you wrote it very well!), and I think its what I was feeling too. Eowyn's 'captivity' and desperation I think has a lot more grief involved with it, with male after male in her family slain while she feels like she sits by and does nothing: a very destructive type of powerlessness in a strong-willed, brave soul. I just don't get quite that level of desperation from Aredhel, though she has courage: the desire to walk in the woods doesn't quite match up. And their cardinal aims are very different: Aredhel wants her freedom to visit and go where she will, Eowyn rides forth with death in honor as her goal.
Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 8 2013, 8:40pm
Post #332 of 381
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:) the court marshal defence was hoping to call Dr Brethil as expert witness to consider Éowyns mental state. //
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Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 8 2013, 10:28pm
Post #333 of 381
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agreed, brethil (and very nicely stated, btw)...
my gut reaction is similar. eowyn just reeks of some sort of sadness at her core. i'm reminded of a scene in ttt when they're all travelling to the hornberg, and gimli tells eowyn about dwarf women and then falls off his horse. she laughs a few times throughout, and it is a creaky, awkward, rusty laugh. i cannot help but think that was the result of a very careful and thoughtful choice on behalf of miranda otto -- when is the last time, do you think, that eowyn laughed?
let's imagine aredhel arguing with her brother that her place is outside, on the front lines, with fingolfin or fingon, close to the action, and she leaves gondolin with a sword in her hand, travelling towards the general vacinity of angband. she sure seems a lot more admirable now.
cheers : )
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jun 8 2013, 10:33pm
Post #334 of 381
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agreed, brethil (and very nicely stated, btw)...
my gut reaction is similar. eowyn just reeks of some sort of sadness at her core. i'm reminded of a scene in ttt when they're all travelling to the hornberg, and gimli tells eowyn about dwarf women and then falls off his horse. she laughs a few times throughout, and it is a creaky, awkward, rusty laugh. i cannot help but think that was the result of a very careful and thoughtful choice on behalf of miranda otto -- when is the last time, do you think, that eowyn laughed?
That's a *great* foray into the visual!!!!! You're right, it seems like she doesn't laugh easily, doesn't quite know how, whereas even Argaorn, with so much on his shoulders, makes that minxish joke in the first place...makes the idea of the Houses of Healing even more clear, as Eowyn doesn't just need rest, or her arm fixed - she needs healing in a very deep sense. I too commend the scene! Excellent point, well made Telpemairo!!!!
Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jun 8 2013, 10:40pm
Post #335 of 381
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Eowyn's Mental State in the ME DSM...
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The Middle Earth DSM might include:
Nan Elmoth Syndrome
Black Breath Disorder
Mad Baggins Disease
Gollumphrenia
Oath Psychoses (Jewel and Non-Jewel Mediated)
Dragon Sickness
And the disturbing set of symptoms known as the Hurin Offspring Sequelae.
Of course for Eowyn I presume Post-Traumatic Shieldmaiden's Disorder might do the trick. 
Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 8 2013, 10:41pm
Post #336 of 381
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: )
i can never watch that scene without hearing those qualities in her laugh.
i wonder if, in part, eowyn was attracted to aragorn not just because he was this great commander of edain and a heroic figure, but because she could sense the healing qualities in him as well.
so much focus on eowyn is on her heroic fight (which is worthy of so much discussion). but i find her journey towards healing +so+ incredibly moving.
again, in the films, when she is in the houses of healing, with howard shore's score (which, in my opinion, has healing qualities of its own), and aragorn attends to her, and she takes her first, unburdened breath, and opens her eyes... the healing that has begun is not only from the black, poisonous wound from the witch king, or the commonplace wounds from battle, but the emotional and spiritual mutilation that has been bleeding internally for years.
one thing we can say about eowyn --- she surely had better taste in males then elf-wise aredhel did.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 8 2013, 10:42pm
Post #337 of 381
(5623 views)
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i love "mad baggins disease"!!!!!!!!!!!!
cheers : ) (!!!!!!)
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 9 2013, 1:12am
Post #338 of 381
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I thought of the comparison as I wrote that reply on Aredhel: they both broke rules and were tough, etc. But their motivations were very different. Aredhel wanted to have fun, and Eowyn wanted to die (or had given up any hope of having fun). Aredhel was indifferent to the plight of her guards, whereas Eowyn saw Merry in distress and took him along with her. When Eowyn got into battle, she stayed close to Theoden to protect him. Even down and out, Eowyn thought about other people.
You're right about them both being self-sacrificing, and that's one time I think Aredhel is noble. The other time is when she asks Turgon to not kill Eol after he's wounded her. But overall, I don't feel much reader loss when she dies, as in: "Oh, no, there goes a great character!"
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jun 9 2013, 1:18am
Post #339 of 381
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i love "mad baggins disease"!!!!!!!!!!!!
Glad you like it!
(Why do I have the feeling Furuncurunir will come along and add about fifty hysterical diagnoses to that list?!)
Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 9 2013, 2:03am
Post #340 of 381
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I like this one best (they're all great)
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Post-Traumatic Shieldmaiden's Disorder
How about "annulmania", which is my crude Latin translation of "ring sickness."
But I want to try checking into an ER and telling them I have Black Breath Disorder, and are there any Tolkien-literate doctors in the house who know what that means, and does the pharmacy carry athelas tea? I'll tell them my health insurance is the Valinor plan (meaning if I die, I hope I go there).
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Ardamírë
Valinor
Jun 9 2013, 3:39am
Post #341 of 381
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Funny that you say that. For me, it sounds very beautiful and delightful to my ears. Listening to her laugh is actually one of my favorite parts of the film.
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 9 2013, 6:47am
Post #342 of 381
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How about: Obsessive Wing Enumeration Disorder (mostly affects Balrogs )
Gollumphrenia? I thought that was a concept album by The Who?
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 9 2013, 7:48am
Post #343 of 381
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megafeanomania --
the feeling that one is the greatest in everything. marked by excessive and compulsive bouts of swearing.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 9 2013, 9:53am
Post #344 of 381
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I think there's another factor - in fiction and real life, we often judge people by the results of their actions, even though those are often at least partly out of the person's control.
So:
Pick up the Battle of Pellanor Fields at the point where Eomer has seen his sister apparently dead and led a berserker charge into the middle of the enemy. You'll recall that he's become surrounded and is at the point of ordering a last shieldwall stand (at this point in Tolkien's tale, Aragorn et al turn up on the captured Corsair ships). But let's experimentally put Aragorn's arrival back half an hour - his forces arrive to win the day, but to find the last few Rohirrim survivors, the shieldwall having been formed and overwhelmed. Do we feel any different about Eowyn now?
Conversely:
Imagine Aredhel and her guards set out and discover that an Orcish observation post has been set up near Gondolin. Unfortunately it's positioned such that Morgoth is surely about to discover where the hidden city is. She cleverly rides to find the nearest other Noldor troops, who drive off the orcs, saving the secret of Gondolin. Now she's our hero, and Turgon might be willing to relax his "once in, never out" rule to take the risk of patrols.
The point is that I changed the consequences of the characters' actions, without affecting their original motives or actions (as far as we know them).
I think this concept is called moral luck - whether you end up being regarded as a hero or villain or a dunce can have an element of luck as well as character to it!
I also wanted to pick up on Maciliel's earlier observation that there appears to be a double-standard: wilful males are more likely to be admired than wilful females. And in stories, wilful males are more likely to be rewarded with success, but wilful females with comeuppance. I agree. Maybe that is because a lot of societies seem to want to protect their womenfolk more - so maybe we dwell more on what "might have happened" to the wilful lady, and have many stories on the Tree of Tales which teach male risk-taking and female caution?
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 9 2013, 9:56am
Post #345 of 381
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Mumak-sized and yet agile and hard to keep up with (That's this thread, not me! )
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Did you raise the Aredhel/Eowyn comparison before? Sorry if I seemed to appropriate it!
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 9 2013, 10:02am
Post #346 of 381
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Just to remark - the next chapter is up!
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http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=612037#612037
Not that we need to stop here, but we will surely also want to discuss "Of the Coming of Men into the West"
[I did initially type "we will surely also want to discuss the coming of Men", but that read a bit oddly..... ]
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 9 2013, 12:30pm
Post #347 of 381
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wow, nowime, i've never heard of the phrase "moral luck" before ('tho of course have thought about its effect on scenarios --- people do the "what if" a lot, certainly on this thread).
i love your "what if" scenario for aredhel (the orc-post, making the equation willfulness + orc post = hero. much to think on there. and "what if" she discovered that orc outpost before -- or -- after -- she was ensnared by eol. does the difference in sequence of events make her seem more or less the hero?
btw --- the cautionary tales re females that seem constructed to punish their independence..... i largely view these as society's desire to +control+ females, rather than to protect them.
look at where this kind of "protection" lives in the real world. in those societies, women are barred from things like driving, going out alone, choosing life partners for themselves, etc. some are even banned from showing their faces at all in public, in order to "protect" them. i suspect this potentially may be a more incendiary statement for the reading room, given different political and religious opinions and differing cultures that exist in the world, but, well..... there it is.
thank you for introducing me to the (very handy) concept of moral luck. : )
many cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 9 2013, 12:31pm
Post #348 of 381
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for future reference, we can call this thread...
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the "mumak thread" or the "oliphaunt thread."
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 9 2013, 1:20pm
Post #349 of 381
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since were talking about females...
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since we're talking about females and (some) males' desire to control females i wanted to share these +incredibly+ moving, personal accounts of domestic violence, generously told by patrick stewart.
growing up, stewart's dad regularly and horrifically beat his mother. stewart says that he couldn't do anything about it when he was a child, so he's doing something about it now. i was moved to tears, and you, too, may be....
+so+ worth the listen...
patrick stewart's personal story about domestic violence, first clip
patrick stewart's personal story about domestic violence, second clip
cheers, and hope you think it's worthwhile --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 9 2013, 1:20pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 9 2013, 1:32pm
Post #350 of 381
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I'm relating what I've read in an interesting book "Game of Thrones and Philosophy" (subtitle "Logic Cuts Deeper Than Swords"  ) Henry Jacoby (Ed) its in the Blackwell Philosophy and Pop Culture Series (Published by Wiley). An interesting book: they have a series of essays in which philosophers pick out episodes from GoT (in this case) and use them to illustrate philosophical ideas. The Contributors have several interesting points to make about Westeros, many if which, as here, can be applied to other stories.
Here's a link to Wiley's page about the series, in case that interests: http://eu.wiley.com/WileyCDA/Section/id-324354.html?sort=DATE&sortDirection=DESC&page=1
Moral luck is the work of the philosopher Nagel, who I haven't read. But maybe someone here has and would like to comment further?
I agree with you that the line between protecting someone and controlling them is not a clear one. Rather regret putting "protecting" as it seems to put me on one side of a debate, & Im not sure Id be there if we were debating (which i also suggest we dont!)
I'd be happy for my post to be read "protecting (or controlling)..." Or strike protecting & mentally replace it with controlling, as the reader wishes.
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Great list if syndromes!
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