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Yngwulff
Gondor
Jun 8 2013, 5:15am
Post #251 of 293
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gotta make sure the 'do and mascara are just right
Take this Brother May it Serve you Well Vote for Pedro!
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Escapist
Gondor
Jun 8 2013, 5:37am
Post #252 of 293
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But I do know several people who seem to believe that girls and boys "can't just be friends". As long as people like that populate the world, such things become issues and facets of any girl-boy relationship, however they choose to deal with it - even if it only comes from other people wondering/gossiping about them. If the fact that two of the prettiest faces on the screen are next to each other most of their time on screen and aren't related isn't shaped into some form of a relationship that dealt with such issues at some time somehow, then the next thing that happens is all kinds of shipping and fans filling it in. The tension will be there and must be handled with care. So much depends on keeping a balance. It is so easy to swing too far in any way at all.
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Escapist
Gondor
Jun 8 2013, 5:40am
Post #253 of 293
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I can't help but be intrigued.
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Probably the most handsome male role on screen for this movie ... but ... it's such a taboo for anyone on screen to notice that at all - especially if they are a girl. Interesting.
(This post was edited by Escapist on Jun 8 2013, 5:45am)
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Escapist
Gondor
Jun 8 2013, 5:52am
Post #255 of 293
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Tauriel's death could have all kinds of unintended impact on the story. Immediate comparisons with other important deaths will be made, like it or not. Who knows what other unintended effects could result - depending on how it is done. Why go there unless it really does add to the story - not just Tauriel's arc - but the events of the reclaiming of Erebor and such and so forth etc.
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Escapist
Gondor
Jun 8 2013, 6:04am
Post #256 of 293
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For many people, love automatically creates a story focus.
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I do think that there are ways to work any romantic element into the story in order to emphasize the character of Thranduil and showcase the people of Mirkwood as a people that includes real people that have emotions - and not just a nice set of automated suits of armor at the command of the King - nor a collection of bags for holding Dorwinion's best.
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Estel78
Tol Eressea
Jun 8 2013, 7:54am
Post #257 of 293
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They may wear lipstick but not the obvious sort. //
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Elenorflower
Gondor
Jun 8 2013, 10:46am
Post #258 of 293
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I wonder if the soup sillyness was an attempt to make Eowyn seem more 'feminine' and less a Shieldmaiden bent on Death. They also had her giggling at some point, the real Eowyn was aloof and didnt pander to anyone, maybe the Writers thought it would put people off if she remained like a cold White lily. I personally detested that whole segment in TT, I am glad it was only in the EE.
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Semper Fi
Rohan
Jun 8 2013, 11:08am
Post #259 of 293
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Yep, wrong "feminity" that`s also out of character
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And then they went back to "she needs to be saved by a guy after all" cliche. Praise PJ for leaving all that nonsense for EE.
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Semper Fi
Rohan
Jun 8 2013, 11:16am
Post #260 of 293
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Shipping is fine but it doesn`t have to happen onscreen
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Besides, implication is that girl (Tauriel) fell in love with a boy (Legolas) and that`s a sterotypical view that girls can never accept guys as just friends but always see a wedding at the end of the line. In short, all a girl really wants it to get a guy. Which is why all the warrior posturing is just that, posturing, and faux-feminism. She`s basically choosing her career in men`s world so she can be close to him and hopefully impress him enough so that he chooses her as his mate. Perhaps the movie doesn`t go like that but Lilly sure as heck sells the character as yet another independent woman on a surface who just wants to get a guy.
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Semper Fi
Rohan
Jun 8 2013, 11:24am
Post #261 of 293
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I`m sorry if I was out of line
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And if I was harsh to your favorite Elf. But just like she is your fave without actually seeing her in the movie, I have reservations based on everything that has been said about her by the actress and the writer`s track record with female characters. I honestly think that those scenes with Eowyn were unnecessary and out of character, and Tauriel sounds really immature and like a standard faux-feminist cliche warrior princess who just wants to get a guy. I`d buy that in a teen movie with teen characters but not here (hopefully, they aren`t trying to pass Evangeline Lilly as an equivalent to a teen Elf which would be really bizarre).
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jun 8 2013, 1:44pm
Post #262 of 293
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I agree, Tauriel seems very PC and cliched...
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like just about everything else the writers take it upon themselves to shoehorn into Tolkien's story. LOTR mostly worked because the writers, for the most part, tempered their desire to make drastic changes to the plot. I feel that they have kind of exposed themselves as not-so-great scriptwriters with AUJ. I know there are many who disagree with me, but I feel that the story and characters just get really cliched and lame when the writers take it upon themselves to add in their own plot devices (Fork-handed goofball Azog? Warrior princess elf-girl with love-story? Nazgul tombs?). It isn't Tolkien fanboyism, it's that I feel these writers are self-indulgent, and as AUJ has proven, just not very good at writing their own stories. I can only hope they curb their desire to include their own ridiculous non-canon material for the next 2 movies, but I really doubt they will. As of right now, the only saving grace for me is the acting and casting, (especially Freeman and McKellen), and WETA (minus old Fork-hand).
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Jun 8 2013, 1:45pm)
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Noria
Gondor
Jun 8 2013, 2:09pm
Post #263 of 293
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Delurking to say I never understand why people get so anxious about aspects of a movie they have yet to see, but if that’s how they get their fun, so be it. In principle the creation of the character of Tauriel doesn't bother me. I'll wait until I see her and her story in the movie before I get all angsty. This love story thing might be not much more than the back story that informs the performance. Unless Tauriel dominates DoS, she probably won't be a problem for me even if there are romantic elements. Evangeline Lilly is certainly no bigger a “star” than established actors like Ken Stott and James Nesbitt and I doubt that her role will be bigger. Also, I have to admit that I’m sort of interested to see a non-royal female elf. On another site someone remarked that there is room in this story to fit in someone who is the head of the Mirkwood Elves and there is no reason that this character can't be female. Whether they are going about it the right way or not, the creators of these films are trying to broaden their appeal, to attract women as well as men, as they must. I've read that female characters actually do draw women into theatres. A while back on this site someone described how when she took her young daughter to see AUJ, the child loved the movie but remarked that there were no girls and was happy to hear that one would appear in the next movie. A woman doesn't have to be a fan of Twilight to appreciate a female presence or even a romance. IMO, PJ and his team aren't wrong to try to bring a female presence into the movies; it remains to be seen if the means they've selected works out. I tend to ignore the remarks the actors and writers make in interviews. Not everyone is adept at conveying their meaning in sound bites, nor are they always quoted accurately or in context. I also think that it's silly to blame Boyens or Walsh alone for aspects of LotR or TH that one happens to dislike. We've all seen the LotR commentaries and Hobbit videologs. We've seen how PJ operates. Does anyone really think that a single aspect of any of these movies is not vetted and approved by him before the movie is released?
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DwellerInDale
Rohan
Jun 8 2013, 2:22pm
Post #264 of 293
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Your post includes a good fair share of the basic reasons for including the character of Tauriel in The Hobbit. Given the amount of jumping to conclusions that has gone on over single words spoken in interviews, and some of the inappropriate name-calling, I wish that more members had your "wait and see" forbearance.
Don't mess with my favorite female elf.
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sphdle1
Gondor
Jun 8 2013, 2:29pm
Post #265 of 293
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Me's a lika dis new character...she's a gotta grand bow
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That's my Jar Jar impression. Yes, me's a lika Jar Jar! So me's a really gonna like this new Tauriel character, especially after watching that clip...
sphdle1 "The last words Albus Dumbledore spoke to the pair of us? Harry is the best hope we have. Trust him."
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Escapist
Gondor
Jun 8 2013, 2:39pm
Post #266 of 293
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This is why I don't support this Mary-Sue Tauriel.
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"She sort of goes against the social order of the elves a little bit" "and Legolas’ dad, [Elven king] Thranduil, has a soft spot for Tauriel and sees something very special in her. So if you grow up side by side, and your dad has a very special spot in his heart for this young woman who’s a fantastic warrior, I think it’s hard not to notice her.”" Tauriel could have been representative of the female sylvan elves in Mirkwood. Instead she is an anachronism - one of the classic fails of the Mary Sue character. The responses from others - especially those in authority are exceptional. Her bucking of the social order is met with acceptance rather than met with a meaningful struggle and there is no other evidence of anyone else challenging this order in a similar way. This all makes her an obvious Mary-Sue. She is that modern age Legolas/Thranduil (whichever) fangirl transported into Mirkwood so that she can have a fantasy romance with her favorite elf there. A romance that "bucks the social order" and is "exceptional" and is responded to in a way totally unlike what any other girl of Mirkwood would go through in the same situation. Not only is this character uninteresting, she also makes Mirkwood seem trite and tainted by anachronistic distortions.
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Escapist
Gondor
Jun 8 2013, 2:44pm
Post #267 of 293
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This is NOT why I don't support the approach to Tauriel presented here.
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I am not against women who fight beside men. I am not against Tauriel having a romantic dimension to her character - not even with Legolas and/or Thranduil. I am not against the invention of additional background characters. I am not against those additional background characters being female. I am against this because of how anachonistic it is - how divergent she is from all the rest of the people of Mirkwood in an insensitive and indulgent way - at least that is what this sounds like. There is still time to fix it. I don't think it requires a total overhaul. It is all in the subtle differences between being representative of that grey area that didn't have enough detail in the text (yes this needs to be improved for this film) - and indulging in fantasy fictions that project a modern persona onto a people of ancient tradition in an unrealistic and non-credible way.
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DwellerInDale
Rohan
Jun 8 2013, 2:49pm
Post #268 of 293
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Plus ca change...more name-calling
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This all makes her an obvious Mary-Sue. She is that modern age Legolas/Thranduil (whichever) fangirl transported into Mirkwood so that she can have a fantasy romance with her favorite elf there. A romance that "bucks the social order" and is "exceptional" and is responded to in a way totally unlike what any other girl of Mirkwood would go through in the same situation. Not only is this character uninteresting, she also makes Mirkwood seem trite and tainted by anachronistic distortions. So based on a few words in some sound-bite interviews, you can assume all of this, without having seen any of the film? And that justifies the name-calling?
Don't mess with my favorite female elf.
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Escapist
Gondor
Jun 8 2013, 3:01pm
Post #269 of 293
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"Mary Sue" is a technical writing term.
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Just like incomplete CGI development of Azog was a technical computer graphic art issue. If the criterion for a Mary Sue are met, then a Mary Sue she is. It doesn't matter who wrote her lines. from http://tvtropes.org/...AvoidWritingAMarySue "The Big One: A lot of examples on this page can be summed up as "Your character must fit within the established world"." There is quite a bit out there about writing and how to avoid Mary Sue. Here is more - and there is a lot more out there. http://www.fanpop.com/...w-spot-how-stay-away This version of Tauriel fails the Mary Sue test and that is bad and needs to get fixed.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 8 2013, 3:04pm
Post #270 of 293
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We may not (and perhaps shouldn't) get much of Tauriel's backstory...
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It is possible, though, that she has a reasonable motive for choosing warfare over marriage and family. That would make the character much more acceptable. I do find it ironic that Lilly's natural, dark hair is not only far more attractive than her red-headed look, but that it would also be more authentically Wood-elven.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jun 8 2013, 3:06pm
Post #271 of 293
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I'm not against Tauriel per se....
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If they are replacing the male captain of the elven guard with a female one, fine. But they wouldn't have cast a well-known actress like Evangeline Lilly in the role if it wasn't going to be blown-up beyond what it should be. Bofur and Balin are a part of the group that the story is supposed to be following, the captain of the elven guard appears in a small part of one chapter, and is known for getting drunk and passing out. Fleshing out Bilbo's companions compliments Bilbo's journey in my mind - I don't see how concocting love-stories just so the invented female character can have some extra screen time will compliment Bilbo's story. I guess it's a wait and see thing, but the writing team has a pretty bad track record when it comes to shoehorning their own arcs into the stories, and I feel we've already gotten enough fan-fiction arcs that distract from Bilbo's journey. If you're ok with the writers giving arcs to characters that were mentioned once or twice in the books, that's your opinion, but IMO, splitting the story across three films is looking like a horrible idea due to the fact that so much of the added material isn't even Tolkien's material, which we were led to believe it was (and which the writers still seem loathe to admit in some cases). I want to see Tolkien's story on film, not Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh, and Philippa Boyens' story.
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DwellerInDale
Rohan
Jun 8 2013, 3:19pm
Post #272 of 293
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A direct quote from your source material:
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Here's a direct quote from your source for justifying "Mary Sue" as a "technical writing term": It should be noted that there IS such a thing as a "good" Mary Sue, and that there are a few exceptions where characters can have a lot of the symptoms above and NOT be a Mary Sue (like the elves in Lord of the Rings, for instance) -- from www.fanpop.com That aside, what I objected to was all this enormous jumping to conclusions given that you and others have yet to see the film. All this negativity comes from a few words in some sound bite interviews, and there are many possible interpretations, including ones I've posted in this thread.
Don't mess with my favorite female elf.
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Escapist
Gondor
Jun 8 2013, 3:25pm
Post #273 of 293
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That might be the best thing since she is a secondary character not from any text.
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I think she is still an important character to have because in the text we have all of these unnamed faceless elves that have opinions that get reported - but the dialogue, names, and faces are missing. So she is perfect for filling that detail in - it's just that this backfires completely when instead of representing all that material in the book - it diverges in a distracting way from what is actually there that needs expression in a filmable way. The back-story for all of the characters that appear doesn't fit into 3 3hour movies and wouldn't necessarily be coherent either if it was forced in. It only fits where it supports the story being told here. Personally, I don't think that an attraction to either Thranduil or Legolas or even attraction of Thranduil or Legolas should require reams of backstory. We have beautiful people here in positions of power - this often generates attraction. Ignoring this fact seems dumb, abusing it seems dumber. Compared to Lorien (where normal day-to-day living has been disrupted by mourning for Gandalf and the regular citizenry of Lorien make little contribution to the events of the story outside of Haldir), Mirkwood elves do important things and their culture needs more fleshing out. We have the river boat paddlers, the turn-keys, the partiers, the elves who contribute their opinions about Bo5A - I want to see all of that. I don't want to see that replaced by someone else's personal fantasies. I'm not interested in those.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 8 2013, 3:36pm
Post #274 of 293
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Granted, I don't think that an infatuation with a High-born Elf would be a good motive to become a slayer
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Loss of family to the forces of darkness might be better--although it seems a bit deriviative of the backstory for the sons of Elrond. I am also not against the creation of new supporting characters. I see it as a necessity of adapting Tolkien to film, as his world needs to be filled out visually as his characters encounter new environments. The lead characters cannot always be shown walking through empty vistas; they must also interact occassionally with the people that they do meet, if only to buy a meal and a pint.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Semper Fi
Rohan
Jun 8 2013, 3:49pm
Post #275 of 293
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Male slayers rarely get explanation why they are slayers
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while female slayers always get some inane reason such as revenge, love for another warrior,etc. So gender equality this ain`t.
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