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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 5 2013, 8:56pm
Post #126 of 381
(6017 views)
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: )
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 5 2013, 9:04pm
Post #127 of 381
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I want to know if he wore Spock's pointy ear merchandise as an Elf disguise. //
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 5 2013, 9:12pm
Post #128 of 381
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Or, perhaps, an uptight middle class English author?
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I think the date rape analogy is entirely plausible. But when I read the "not unwilling" bit, I did wonder whether this was early 20th century middle class English understatement at work, whereby "not unwilling" is a euphemism for "extremely enthusiastic".
As in :
"to tea yesterday at Mr. Baggins, who always keeps a fine table. He suggested his Stilton cheese would go a lot better with yet another bottle of Old Winyard, and I was not unwilling. Alas! Terrible headache today, unable to face second breakfast."
Euphemism needed where being honest would touch on an embarrassing subject: female passion in this case. Recall that Tolkien's young years were the Edwardian period, barely out of Victorian prudery. Perhaps he felt he'd laid all these concerns were having to rest with that phrase???
It's at least possible: and would explain less troublingly why she stayed so long.
Not sure which theory I believe now, though I'd like the lady to have been happy at least for a while, soppy old non-wizard that I am.
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 5 2013, 9:20pm
Post #129 of 381
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litotes
******************************************
Brother will fight brother and both be his slayer,
Brother and sister will violate all bonds of kinship;
Hard it will be in the world, there will be much failure of honor,
An age of axes, an age of swords, where shields are shattered,
An age of winds, an age of wolves, where the world comes crashing down;
No man will spare another.
-From the Völuspá, 13th Century
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elaen32
Gondor
Jun 5 2013, 9:49pm
Post #130 of 381
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Late to the party and lots to catch up on! Again!!!
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It's taken me 30 mins just to read all of this- wow it has been busy!
I find this whole chapter rather unsettling, elves just not behaving as one might expect etc.
Re Aredhel and Eol- this always seems a bit creepy to me, in the way that Eol ensnares her, but maybe she wanted to be ensnared. And how to interpret "she was not quite unwilling" ? I imagine she was rather intrigued by Eol- so different from her upright noble brother and different yet again from her Feanorian cousins. This in itself could have engendered attraction and whilst she may have been afraid, was also fascinated. Unfortunately, in my experience (not personal), relationships which begin thus do not usually have a good ending. Initially, Aredhel probably found Eol's obsession and possessive nature flattering and gratifying, as he appeared to care for her. But in the way of such control-freakery, the relationship soon becomes abusive. This is a classic in real world relationships too- the abuser insists that the abuse and control are for the other partner's "own good" and "because they love them" and even that the other person "drives them to it". I have seen it many times in people I have dealt with over the years. Unfortunately, many end up being unable to leave the situation and do not have the resolve that Aredhel eventually shows in leaving Eol. This is a case where her headstrong and prideful nature is an advantage. However, as well as the initial fascination, it is not clear whether rape was involved. Certainly, if this was the case, Eol may have seen it as a way of ensuring that Aredhel remained "his". It has overtones of real historical accounts, especially in medieval times, of heiresses being captured and raped, which virtually secured them as a wife for the predatory man. This almost happened twice to Eleanor of Aquitaine in the 12th century, after she divorced Louis of France and was riding back to Aquitaine to marry (albeit secretly) Henry Plantagenet. If either of the two men who made attempts had been successful, as great and powerful as Eleanor was in her own right, she would have been considered as good as the bride of the rapist.
Re Maeglin- I am sure that his father not even bothering to name him for 12 years would have had a negative effect, but to what extent is harder to say. Do elves grow up more slowly than humans? Would it have been such an issue since he had no contact with other young elves? I initially feel rather sorry for him, especially when his mother dies at the hand of his father and then his father dies- but obviously things go downhill in terms of his personality later on. I haven't read the later chapters for a long while, so cannot comment on this yet. Re the execution of Eol- well it is understandable in terms of what we know of his treatment of Aredhel, trying to kill his son, and killing Aredhel instead. Also, of course, the issue of him being able to find Gondolin again. I would have thought it more in keeping with TOlkien's writing to have Eol emprisoned- but then again, since he is immortal and, given his personality, unlikely to have repented and changed, what was the alternative? At the time Turgon did not know that Gondolin would fall soon (in elf terms) and could envisage having to imprison Eol, if not eternally, then certainly for a few thousand years. I guess pushing him off a cliff seemed preferable!
"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 5 2013, 9:51pm
Post #131 of 381
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great post, nowimë!
now, i don't think eol is a prince. i think he turned out to be a rather slimy character. but i have a +very+ hard time imagining the proud, willful, "fearless and hardy" aredhel being thoroughly cowed by him.
i think he set his enchanted snares, she wandered to his doorstep, and he revealed himself. she was tired of the wandering yes, but she's not a shrinking violet. i envision her going in for sup, and by and by the commonalities of their two natures revealed itself: strong wills, wanderers, a bit rebellious.
i think this was one of those situations where like attracted like, but over the long haul, was unsustainable. a lot of fire and passion at the beginning, but with two strong wills and not very flexible tendencies, it was bound to blow up.
and i find your take on the euphemisms so interesting! i can truly see tolkien, raised in that milieu, not being comfortable stating that a lady was "passionate." dewy love, longing gazes, yes, but the more firey passions, no.
very interesting post. thanks! : )
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 5 2013, 9:57pm
Post #132 of 381
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tolkien, in morgoth's ring, describes many customs of the eldar, and their nature.
when tolkien describes elven natures re love, marriage, etc., he says many things.... i'll paraphrase...
1. elves do not cheat on their spouses, nor do unmarried elves cheat with married ones (it's unthinkable to them)
2. elves can just look into the eyes of other elves and tell who is married and who is not
3. the ceremony does not make the marriage -- consummation does. it may be accompanied by a ceremony or not.
4. elves instinctively are drawn to those who are good matches for them
5. elves do not rape
so, i don't think eol raped aredhel. i think perhaps tolkien added that line ("not wholly unwilling") so that we wouldn't think eol was a rapist (which we might be inclined to think, if he were edain).
am in general agreement with you, elaen, re it starting out positively, then completely falling apart over time.
i'll see if i can dig up some passages.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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elaen32
Gondor
Jun 5 2013, 10:02pm
Post #133 of 381
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I agree with most of this Maciliel
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I wonder if some of Tolkien's reticence about women was just that he hadn't a lot of experience of friendships with women, except for his wife. His mother died when he was a child. He went to an all-boys school until the age of 18, then fought in WW1- again, no women in the army then. He returns and goes to study at Oxford, which was still very much a male bastion. He would likely not have associated much with female undergraduates. He then marries Edith at a relatively young age, but remains living and working in the all male Oxford environment. There weren't (as far as I remember) any female Inklings and it would probably have been considered "improper" for women to frequent the Eagle & Child during much of Tolkien's working life. Therefore, the main female influence would have been Edith, who he obviously based some of his strong females on, but one cannot keep repeating the same character. I don't know enough about Christopher to know what motivations he might have had to reduce his father's canon of women characters. He certainly seems to have done a hatchet job on some of them. I'm afraid that he always strokes me as somebody I wouldn't like very much if I met him. But then... if not for him, we would not even be having this discussion because the Sil, HOME, UT etc would not be out there!
"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"
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elaen32
Gondor
Jun 5 2013, 10:05pm
Post #134 of 381
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I haven't got round to reading Morgoth's Ring yet, so hadn't come across this. Well. I'm glad he didn't rape her, even if the rest of his behaviour was somewhat reprehensible!
"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"
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Faenoriel
Tol Eressea
Jun 5 2013, 10:07pm
Post #135 of 381
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She felt something for him, no matter how twisted it was
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That's how I've interpreted the relationship. It wasn't real love, but some kind of unhealthy obsession from Eöl, and Aredhel in her part was drawn to him in an unhealthy way for her time - perhaps merely sexually. There is an undertone of him seducing her and her being excited about it all for a while...
That good girl from a good family who has strong will and is bored at home... who wants to see the world... gets on the bad part of the town and in the dark back alley... where she meets this shady guy and they get together for a while, in an abusive relationship that ends with her running away.
But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied
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elaen32
Gondor
Jun 5 2013, 10:14pm
Post #136 of 381
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The fact that we love hearing you Brits talk makes me wonder if our old Monarchial instincts are still kicking around...and if we had stayed under the same flag if the accents still would have diverged as much. (Coming out of Noo Yawk, of course, accent is the thing. Would've sounded a bit odd - Heya, howya dooin' ya' Majesty?)  And don't get me started on Boston... 
It's interesting how accents etc change even locally within a life time. In the SE corner of England where I live, the native accent is a soft country accent (not as marked as the general hobbity accents, but a little similar) and some of the older people still speak like this. It has then been diluted down the generations and the predominant accent, especially among young people is a harsher, more "Londonified" Estuary English- which I personally find quite ugly. When I was at primary school (under 11), I went to a very rural village school and a lot of the kids had rural accents and expressions (like "yourrn" for yours), but their kids don't.
Re words like fortnight- years ago, a friend and I tried to speak in Jane Austen-speak for a whole day, using even more ancient expressions like "se'ennight" meaning a week. It was very difficult and made us realise just how much every day speech has changed, even if we have no problem in reading Austen-era English
"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 5 2013, 10:21pm
Post #137 of 381
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i'm going to argue against my own point now
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i'm going to argue against my own point now.
later in the sil, there's a bit of text about celegorm and caranthir (?) -- well, two fsons, anyway -- and arwen luthien. i always had the impression that one of them was thinking of raping her to force a marriage.... but i'll have to reread... certainly that impression was before i read what tolkien said about elves not raping.
but perhaps that incident was a situation in which a male elf was contemplating rape, and it's just an astounding aberration.... perhaps he (or he and eol) were the only ones who ever contemplated it.
cheers ---
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 5 2013, 10:27pm)
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elaen32
Gondor
Jun 5 2013, 10:21pm
Post #138 of 381
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That's ok Feanoriel- we like interesting typos...
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don't we Brethil??.... We've had some good ones of recent weeks, but this one is right up there with them! I wonder what "martial love" might mean in an ME context- XenArwen & Aragorn perhaps? As you say, it could have been worse- could have been martian love!!
"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 5 2013, 10:22pm
Post #139 of 381
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elaen, can you point someone out who has an estatuary accent? i'm not sure i know what that sounds like -- and i've been wondering a se'enweek!
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 5 2013, 10:23pm
Post #140 of 381
(5986 views)
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.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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elaen32
Gondor
Jun 5 2013, 10:24pm
Post #141 of 381
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She wasn't around at this time- now I am confused!
"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 5 2013, 10:26pm
Post #142 of 381
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i meant to type "luthien," but forgot how to spell it, and forgot that it had more letters.
cheers : )
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jun 5 2013, 10:33pm
Post #143 of 381
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Sigh - I agree completely Elaen!
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don't we Brethil??.... We've had some good ones of recent weeks, but this one is right up there with them! I wonder what "martial love" might mean in an ME context- XenArwen & Aragorn perhaps? As you say, it could have been worse- could have been martian love!!
Probably why I didn't bat an eye at that one, Faenoriel.....its really bad when someone distracts me with a Thorin comment, like a cat with a laser pointer, and any number of oddly apropos yet Freudian things happen with my keyboard. And Elaen, you have an uncanny knack of discovering them...!
Hmmm. Martial love - I'm picturing white gi's with Elven-house insignias, chocolate berries served on Chinese stars, and candles.
Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."
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elaen32
Gondor
Jun 5 2013, 10:35pm
Post #144 of 381
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Hmmm- might have to think on that one...
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I'm not sure who you might have come across- I suppose the singer, Adele, who won an Oscar for "Skyfall" is quite Estuary or Jessie J (if you've come across her). Actor wise it's more difficult, because they often use different accents in different parts. Have you ever seen the British soap, "Eastenders"?- most of the characters in that sound more Estuary than Cockney (I don't watch it myself, but have seen enough trailers for it)
"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"
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imin
Valinor
Jun 5 2013, 10:39pm
Post #145 of 381
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Is the accent that is spreading across large parts of the South of England as THE accent. A family member of mine moved to London and now speaks with an Estuary accent and we tease her about it all the time and tell her she is too posh to visit us now, haha.
Lots of accents have softened over time due to the ease at which people can move about and from radio and television. Along with the changes that happen over time as Elaen32 points out.
When my grandparents were young their accent/dialect were thick enough and different enough from regular English that it was said they could learn Norwegian as easily as English.
I think it's sad that we are losing this regional variation.
And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jun 5 2013, 11:37pm
Post #146 of 381
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It's interesting how accents etc change even locally within a life time. In the SE corner of England where I live, the native accent is a soft country accent (not as marked as the general hobbity accents, but a little similar) and some of the older people still speak like this. It has then been diluted down the generations and the predominant accent, especially among young people is a harsher, more "Londonified" Estuary English- which I personally find quite ugly. When I was at primary school (under 11), I went to a very rural village school and a lot of the kids had rural accents and expressions (like "yourrn" for yours), but their kids don't.
Re words like fortnight- years ago, a friend and I tried to speak in Jane Austen-speak for a whole day, using even more ancient expressions like "se'ennight" meaning a week. It was very difficult and made us realise just how much every day speech has changed, even if we have no problem in reading Austen-era English
So do you think just with the distance and time - even if we shared a common government - the speech patterns would have still diverged between the UK and America?
Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 6 2013, 12:00am
Post #147 of 381
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i came across these linguistic maps...
linguistic maps of the u.s.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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telain
Rohan
Jun 6 2013, 12:04am
Post #148 of 381
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sitting in the corner thinking...
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about Elvish powers.
My thoughts are not based on anything resembling canon, but I always had it in mind that each Elf was endowed with a special gift -- usually a gift involving some mental, emotional, or personality trait. So, a gift could be mind-reading (rare), empathy, charm, remaining hidden in plain sight, foresight (Elrond), .., the list goes on as far as the imagination takes it. Perhaps because I have read and heard things like "you have the gift of foresight," and Eol's/Maeglin's gift that his "thought could read the secrets of hearts beyond the mists of words."
I don't think that mind-reading could possibly be that common. 1) it would drive most people mad or to seclusion and 2) would any of them have acted so foolishly!? It seems unlikely.
For some, like Feanor, the gift was so powerful that it effectively ran (and ruined) his life. Part of the education of young elves and Young Elves (here I distinguish between the growing up of an individual elf and the growing up of the Race of Elves) is to be able to control or use their gift without being destructive. In this aspect Feanor gets a rather dismal grade...
Eol is interesting because he is what I would perceive an untrained mind-reader to be like. Solitary. Despising things others like. Probably he went to all the festivals and dances and when he asked a pretty young girl to dance he heard her first reaction ("Umm, No.") but from her mouth comes, "Of course I would be happy to dance with you, Eol!" After hearing enough discontinuity between the thoughts and words of his fellow Teleri, I imagine he had enough. He became angry and full of malice and at that point even the Sun mocked his being.
The dwarves admired his smithing; he found a people who appreciated him. Further into the caves and further into himself he delved and once again another Elf falls prey to a gift he cannot control.
So much for greatness...it seems in Tolkien's mind being great carries a very heavy weight. Perhaps that's why he loved Hobbits...
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 6 2013, 12:11am
Post #149 of 381
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really great and thoughtful post, telain! you are certainly reaping the benefits of sitting in your corner and thinking (as are we).
love your take on eol and his powers. and, if mind-reading ability +was+ common among elves, i would think that there'd have to be a counter-balance of "mind-guarding" -- which is what it sounds like tolkien is describing when he's talking abou maeglin hoping to be able to read aredhel's unguarded mind, to find out about gondolin.
as a side note, i read a scifi book a long time ago. in it, there was a species that could read minds. among that species, there was total openess, and shielding one's thoughts was considered rude.
'tho an interesting concept, i think most of us would be extremely uncomfortable around any and all who could read our minds. it might very well lead to reduced contact.
quick note about early eol -- before he holed up in nan emloth, he was in the forest of region. it's unclear if he was more social there, but for some reason, that's my impression. he fled (i think tolkien actually uses the word, "fled") when melain wrapped her girdle around the area -- which implies that it not only kept people out, but kept people in.
great post! : )
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 6 2013, 12:15am
Post #150 of 381
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... whenever i see "caranthir" i +hear+ "carnathir" --- like he was some kind of dinosaur. which i guess, in a way, he was.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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