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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
New Tauriel Picture!
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Semper Fi
Rohan

Jun 8 2013, 4:12pm

Post #276 of 293 (552 views)
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Stars and famous faces [In reply to] Can't Post

Stars carry movies. There are many actors and actresses who are famous for one-two things (that includes reality show actors and people fmaous for being famous) but that doesn`t make them stars. Star has the power to draw big audience on his/her name alone. So Evangeline Lilly definitely isn`t a star. More famous than actors you mentioned, yes, but not a star. Therefore, there`s no reason to expland her role into a co-lead which I don`t think will happen anyway.

Liv Tyler was also more famous than most of LOTR cast but Arwen wasn`t expanded into a co-lead nor Liv was/is a star.

If anything, Tauriel was created before Hunger Games became sich a boxoffice phenomenon so that movie series and its iconic heroine render Tauriel redundant. Not that the idea wasn`t redundant to begin with but Katniss Everdeen in movies and Arya Stark on TV (just to mention two most popular female archers) she`s now just one of many characters trying to cash in on female archery fad. If you ain`t first you`re last. Wink


(This post was edited by Semper Fi on Jun 8 2013, 4:13pm)


Elessar
Valinor


Jun 8 2013, 4:53pm

Post #277 of 293 (526 views)
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Can't say I agree at all [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry Unsure



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 8 2013, 5:10pm

Post #278 of 293 (524 views)
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I disagree [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Male slayers rarely get explanation why they are slayers while female slayers always get some inane reason such as revenge, love for another warrior,etc. So gender equality this ain`t.



Tolkien does ascribe motives to such characters, the sons of Elrond being a particularly good example. They possess a particular antipathy towards Ors, traced back to the wounding and near-death of their mother.

Tolkien wrote that female Elven warriors were rare because of the nature of the Elven hröa and fëa. He wrote that killing interfered with the ability of Elves (especially Elf-women) to procreate and raise children. An Elf-maiden is not going to enter into a martial lifestyle lightly.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Semper Fi
Rohan

Jun 8 2013, 5:37pm

Post #279 of 293 (514 views)
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I`m not talking about Tolkien but in general [In reply to] Can't Post

Most movie characters who are some type of a killer/slayer isn`t explained beyond being in such profession or we don`t even get that. OTOH, with female characters, even those who are military/police, there`s always some mundane extra reason. It`s more obvious with female characters of this type because they are still fairly rare. Just going by The Hobbit warrior ratio between male and female warriors you can see the point. There are many unexplained male slayers and many explaiend and there`s always a female slayer with some cliche explanation.


(This post was edited by Semper Fi on Jun 8 2013, 5:42pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 8 2013, 5:57pm

Post #280 of 293 (517 views)
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I understand your point, however... [In reply to] Can't Post

I am holding these films up to a higher standard than the average swords-and-sorcery flick (which, frankly, isn't hard to do).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Semper Fi
Rohan

Jun 8 2013, 6:02pm

Post #281 of 293 (523 views)
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Tauriel >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Radagast [In reply to] Can't Post

There. Sorry, just saw a clip with Radagast and I`m as miffed as hungry wet Bilbo after getting another prep talk from Thorin. I can`t believe we aren`t done with this clown. So from now on I`m Camp Tauriel. Can she kill him without mercy? Please!


Escapist
Gondor


Jun 8 2013, 6:21pm

Post #282 of 293 (513 views)
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Since this is film rather than writing [In reply to] Can't Post

I can see making an exception to the rule about having Tauriel being involved somehow with the other main characters.

But I think the level of violation of the rule #1 about needing to fit in the story/world is where the real problem that makes her a glaring MS comes in. The whole point of Tauriel is precisely to display the way things work/are in Mirkwood and we have an overabundance of main characters to begin with ... this is not the situation where it is fitting to go ahead and make Tauriel be totally exceptional, diverting attention away from everything that the people of Mirkwood are in her need to be "different" and dramatic. Furthermore, the parts involving the Mirkwood elves are drowning in drama already - it is well done drama - but there isn't any need for more - especially not if it is drama that does not connect up in any way with the scintillating drama that exists there already. This is what makes her a "bad Mary Sue" in my opinion as presented in this article.

Fixes: Any of the following could help a lot here.
Show that she has to struggle because of bucking the social order.
Show that she is not the only girl that is aware that Legolas is the most beautiful man in ME and his father aint bad either but is more powerful as well.
Show that her position of being favored by Thranduil and allowed to be the exception is not limited to her alone and that he has other pets and others that gain exceptional status by some kind of favor or merit criterion.

These are not the only fixes that are possible - not meant to be an exhaustive list here - and if the fix becomes more involving and consuming than this character deserves, it can also be fixed by cutting back on some of it.


Aitieuriskon
Lorien


Jun 8 2013, 8:31pm

Post #283 of 293 (487 views)
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Arya as female archer icon? Hardly [In reply to] Can't Post

Arya fits as a "slayer" character but certainly isn't a female archer icon. She shoots in 2 scenes, neither against living opponents. I won't spoil you if you haven't read the books, but there's another pretty big reason.

I'd say the skilled archer character itself has become cliched (as much as any other character with overblown/exaggerated fighting skills) but I fail to see your reasoning behind Tauriel as rendered "redundant". As far as I can tell what most people are upset about is that she sticks out too much from elven conventions rather than blending in. In fact, if it ends up that Bloom or some other warrior character overshadows her so much that she feels redundant, then I'd say that'd be a boon: we get a named minor character who won't interfere in the plot and whom we can always ignore.

"After all, I believe that legends and myths are largely made of 'truth', and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear." Professor Tolkien, 1951


Semper Fi
Rohan

Jun 8 2013, 8:54pm

Post #284 of 293 (472 views)
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I did not express myself well [In reply to] Can't Post

Tauriel is an archer and a dagger wielder. Considering female archery overkill of late (Neytiri, Katniss, Merida, Hanna, Arya, Charlie, Skyrim games,etc) and especially in the wake of this recently released poster:

http://cache.g4tv.com/...w-katniss-poster.jpg

they could have emphasized daggers over bow and arrow to make her stand out. Instead, they milk the fad that`s already overstaying its welcome. The way things work, most popular character gets all the credit and becomes "original" and "trend-setter" while everyone else is (unfairly or not) viewed as a clone and cash-in. Since Katniss Everdeen is the designated female archer icon, Tauriel should have been marketed as a dagger warrior instead of a "rider" of Katniss coattails. It`s simply a matter of prespective. One came first, is a bone fide lead character, while another came after and is just one of 20+ characters in her movie. If you give a minor character something that icon already claims as her trademark that will be perceived as a cash-in.

So I hope they dagger-ize the character poster for my Merciless Radagast Slayer. Heart

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 8 2013, 10:36pm

Post #285 of 293 (483 views)
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Tauriel - Our (Elf-) Lady of Contradictions [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe it is my OCD* but I have a problem with Tauriel's fluctuating backstory, especially as it pertains to Legolas and Thranduil. Here is a statement from Evangeline Lilly's interview in Total Film:


Quote

“She’s a very, very young elf. She’s only 600 years old, unlike Legolas who’s like, 1,900 years old and Thranduil who’s about 3,000 years old. She doesn’t have quite the wisdom and pose that those two boys do; she’s a little more… gritty. A little more spontaneous, passionate perhaps."



Now, here is one from the more recently published article in EW:


Quote

“Tauriel’s relationship with Legolas is significant. They’ve known each other since they were children, and Legolas’ dad, Thranduil, has a soft spot for Tauriel and sees something very special in her. So if you grow up side by side, and your dad has a very special spot in his heart for this young woman who’s a fantastic warrior, I think it’s hard not to notice her. That’s probably as much as I can say.”



If Legolas is more than three times Tauriel's age, in what way could they have grown up together? I know that Tolkien never specified Legolas' age, but between 1200 and 2000 years seems a reasonable guess. And film books for the LotR movies do assign Legolas the birthyear of TA 87.

So, the two statements are definitely out-of-whack. However, is this bugging me more than it should be? disregarding the idea of Tauriel and Legolas as childhood playmates, does this really make much difference? Maybe it depends on how much of a character-arc the Elf-maid actually has.

*Obsessive-compulsive disorder (not that I've ever been medically diagnosed with such a condition).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Semper Fi
Rohan

Jun 8 2013, 10:41pm

Post #286 of 293 (468 views)
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Maybe Elf boys mature slower [In reply to] Can't Post

so it takes them several a millenium plus centuries to reach female Elf level? Tongue

Good catch. If she is 600 and Lego is 1900 than they couldn`t have been children at the same time unless Lego was a baby/toddler for 1300 years. Laugh

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 8 2013, 10:48pm

Post #287 of 293 (462 views)
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I wouldn't be surprised if Elf-girls mature faster than Elf-boys [In reply to] Can't Post

But I'm pretty sure that Tolkien never had such a big difference in mind (even if we adjust Leggy's age to only twice Tauriel's). I think that even Tolkien waffled a bit about the maturation rate for Elves -- anywhere from 20-some to 100 years.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Na Vedui
Rohan


Jun 9 2013, 1:33am

Post #288 of 293 (471 views)
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Change of costume? / Have a heart, guys! [In reply to] Can't Post

This picture is a puzzle - some of the shots of Tauriel we've seen before (and the model figure of her that was issued for AUJ before the split into three films) show an interesting, textured costume that is clearly inspired by leaves and looked very appropriate. There are hints of that here - the arrow-quiver and maybe the bracers- but it doesn't look the same one otherwise (to me, anyway - what do you think?)

I'm starting to feel sorry for Tauriel! With Kili hitting on her, Leggy and/or Thrandy not requiting her, and the fans hating her, she works off her feelings by clobbering some orcs then goes and gets legless (since she can't get Legolas) on a jug of Dorwynion wine... whereupon Bilbo pinches her keys and lets the Dwarves out. Poor woman can't win! Unsure


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Jun 9 2013, 2:03am

Post #289 of 293 (444 views)
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The nature of sound-bite replies [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that most of the confusion stemming from this (and other) comments that Evangeline has made are just artifacts of the "sound bite" nature of quotes made to interviewers-- often they aren't things that would stand up to logical scrutiny. For example, Aiden Turner's comment about Kili's "crush" on Tauriel: he said that Kili pretty much knew nothing could ever really happen between them, because "..he's about two feet tall and she's about 20 feet tall". In the Legolas / childhood friends thing, she probably meant that Tauriel has known him and looked up to him since her own childhood.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.



Yngwulff
Gondor


Jun 9 2013, 5:08am

Post #290 of 293 (435 views)
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Maturing rate differs [In reply to] Can't Post

I dunno, it's kinda plausible, but if Lego's dad in the absence of a daughter took her in maybe as an orphan (parents killed by spiders or goblins type thing) and raised her as his own. Maybe there could be some kind of brother/sister unrealized romance thing going on if they are not related by blood, and Tauriel is trying overly hard to impress Dad and Legolas while at the same time bitter about her parents death and vengeful. This would explain a lot of stuff.

Just look at Eowyn who saw her mother die from grief and vowed to fight as a sheildmaiden and die in battle rather than sitting in her room from grief like her mother. Great dynamic backstory there.


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 9 2013, 5:58am

Post #291 of 293 (433 views)
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I have speculated that Tauriel might be on a revenge kick... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I dunno, it's kinda plausible, but if Lego's dad in the absence of a daughter took her in maybe as an orphan (parents killed by spiders or goblins type thing) and raised her as his own. Maybe there could be some kind of brother/sister unrealized romance thing going on if they are not related by blood, and Tauriel is trying overly hard to impress Dad and Legolas while at the same time bitter about her parents death and vengeful. This would explain a lot of stuff.



I was thinking more of a husband and/or child than her parents being killed, but that would undercut the alleged romance (unrequited or otherwise). If she had seen loved ones cut down, the perpetrators could have been spiders from the Mountalns of Mirkwood, 'though Orcs seem just as likely--or even wild Wargs.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Semper Fi
Rohan

Jun 9 2013, 11:06am

Post #292 of 293 (437 views)
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Height as a reason for things "not happening" is a sad excuse [In reply to] Can't Post

IMO, Elf and dwarf innuendo or romance or whatever is more intersting than poor girl falls in love with a rich guy who she knew since childhood. That is done to death. Dwarf and Elf has not been done at all, fanfiction nothwithstanding, but there cannot be as many dwarf/Elf fics out there as there are Legolas/OC.

I am really hoping that they are not setting up Kili crush on Tauriel as the part of "romantic runner-up" package that includes his canon death. Like, we are supposed to feel double sorry for him when he dies because his love was unrequited due to his being a short guy. Laugh

"RadagaStoner deserves no mercy!" Tauriel the Radagast Slayer


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


Jun 9 2013, 4:22pm

Post #293 of 293 (406 views)
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AMEN!!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I want to see Tolkien's story on film, not Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh, and Philippa Boyens' story.

That has always been my one big thing, if the Hobbit as a story is SO bad then why adapt it? because after LOTR the fan base wanted it. But then they make it and they don't stick to the same rules when doing it. They felt the need to modify or change big portions of the story, add unnecessary OTT action sequences (stonegiants) where background elements would have worked much better, and invent or rewrite many events all together (Azog, the dwarf history, Radagast's involvement) Their version of What Tolkien wrote is not as good as what Tolkien wrote, IMO the film was at its best when it took the source material and simply translated it onto the screen even with MINOR changes. But the major changes and made up fan fiction content, just made other parts of the film that much more unenjoyable for me because the Hobbit (and all of Tolkien's works) is my favorite book.


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