Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Silmarilion Discussion: Chapter 16 -- "Of Maeglin"
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 16 Next page Last page  View All

Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 3:28pm

Post #1 of 381 (5480 views)
Shortcut
Silmarilion Discussion: Chapter 16 -- "Of Maeglin" Can't Post

 
Fellowship of the Room, apologies for posting this on a Tuesday, when it would have been my wish to post on a Sunday. I have been rushed and without air-conditioning in 95-102 degree heat, so some flairs for presentation did not make it into the mix this time. Hope you enjoy, nonetheless.

Lots of things (+lots+ of things and themes) going on in this chapter! Sons of Feanor? Check. Magical Elvish powers? Check. Dwarves? Check. Murder? Check. A rare glance at a more fully fleshed out female character? Check. Political strife? Check. I could go +on+ and on and on.

Ok, let's dive in. The waters are deep and cold and refreshing, and sparkle like the eyes of the Noldor themselves...


Cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 3:28pm

Post #2 of 381 (4887 views)
Shortcut
Elven Powers [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Elven Powers
"...and he [Eol] devised a metal as hard as the steel of the Dwarves, but so malleable he could make it thin and supple; and yet it remained resistant to all blades and darts. He named it galvorn..."


"And it came to pass that he saw Aredhel Ar-Feniel, as she strayed beneath the tall trees near the borders of Nan Emloth, a gleam of white in the dim land. Very fair she seemed to him, and he desired her; and he set his enchantments about her so that she could not find the ways out."
"And when Aredhel, weary with wandering, came at last to his doors, he revealed himself; and he welcomed her, and led her into his house."


"For by no means would his mother reveal to Maeglin where Turgon dwelt, nor by what means one might come thither, and he bided his time, trusting yet to wheedle the secret from her, or perhaps to read her unguarded mind..."


1. Is Eol's invention of galvorn an accommplishment soley based on technology and skill, or is there some Elvish "magic" at work? Remember, Tolkien has stated that the magic of the Eldar is something that is just innate to their being.

2. Eol uses enchantment not on stones or steel, or tree or twig, but to snare a sentient being: Aredhel. Is this unusual? Is this misguided? Is this an example of seeking to dominate, of seeking power over another, and thus the seeds of destruction are born? Melain uses her Girdle to ensnare and confuse; it seems Eol did something similar. Is the Girdle of Eol a thing bad, or a thing good, or a thing neutral?

3. Maeglin knows he has at least a chance of reading his mother's mind. Elvish powers? Or just Maeglin powers? Galadriel was said to have this gift as well. Is this an unusual gift? A gift many might have, with greater or lesser skill? If many or most have a shot of reading the minds of others, does it force people to be more honest, knowing hiding the truth might be difficult? What about in real life? We Edain can often tell when actions or gestures or expressions are hiding true intent, even if we can't literally read minds. Does this force us to be more honest, or has it compelled us to be greater dissemblers?


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 3:41pm

Post #3 of 381 (4824 views)
Shortcut
Just Who is the Greatest Elf Again? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Just Who is the Greatest Elf Again?

"Then he called him Maeglin, which is Sharp Glance, for he perceived that the eyes of his son were more piercing than his own and his thought

could read the secrets of hearts beyond the mists of words."

"As Maeglin grew to full stature he resembled in face and form rather his kindred of the Noldor, but in mood and mind he was the son of his

father. His words were few save in matters that touched him near, and then his voice had a power to move those that heard him and to overthrow

those that withstood him."

"He was tall and black-haired; his eyes were dark, yet bright and keen as the eyes of the Noldor, and his skin was white."
"What hope is there in this wood for you or me? Here we are held in bondage, and no profit shall I find here; for I have learned all that my

father has to teach, or what the Naugrim will reveal to me."

"But Maeglin prospered and grew great among the Gondolindrim, praised by all, and high in the favor of Turgon; for if he would learn eagerly and

swiftly all that he might, he had much to teach. And he gathered about him all such as had bent to smmithcraft and mining; and he sought in the

Echoriath..., and found rich loads of ore and divers metals. Most he prized the hard iron of the mine of Anghabar...so that the arms of the

Gondolindrim were made ever stronger and more keen...Wise was Maeglin in council, and wary, and yet hardy and valiant at need....and proved fell

and fearless in battle."

"Thus all seemed well with the fortunes of Maeglin, who had risen to be mighty among the princes of the Noldor, and greatest save one in the most

renowned of their realms...Idril loved Maeglin not at all; and knowing his thought of her she loved him the less. For it seemed to her a thing

strange and crooked in him, as indeed the Eldar ever since have deemed it; an evil fruit of the Kinslaying, whereby the shadow of the curse of

Mandos fell upon the last hope of the Noldor."



1. Is Maeglin a stand-in for Feanor? He seems almost a reincarnation. Feanor's eyes were said to be blue, I believe, and Maeglin's were said to be dark -- but dark could be their value (think light blue/dark blue), or they could be green. Tolkien speaks of Elves and Edain having blue or grey eyes, but it should be noted that Germanic populations (which partly inspired his world) have one of the highest concentrations of green eyes in the world). But I digress with the eye color. Maeglin shares so much with Feanor -- appearance, love of the activities associated with Aule, thirst for knowledge, great orator, keen observor, lust for greatness and achievement, fiercely fell in battle.

2. Is this repetition of Feanorian qualities in one character a boring redux? Or is Maeglin different enough to make it interesting?

3. +So+ interesting that Tolkien writes that Maeglin was the "last hope of the Noldor." Is this classic Tolkien hyperbole? Or was this very conciously done, considering the strong parallels between Maeglin and Feanor? And what could have become of that hope anyway? There was still an un-overthrowable Vala to the north. Or did Tolkien mean something different? Was there potential in Maeglin (with so many Feanorian qualities) to bring healing and renewal as the Oath of Feanor brought destruction? Maeglin also forged (pun!) alliances with Dwarves. They would have been more powerful allies, had their purposes and those of the Eldar been more closely aligned. Could that also been part of the hope that was symbolized by Maeglin?


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 3:49pm

Post #4 of 381 (4810 views)
Shortcut
Friends of the Sons of Feanor [In reply to] Can't Post

Friends of the Sons of Feanor

"My heart desires rather to find the sons of Feanor, my friends of old."

Aredhel spent a lot of time in Valinor with the Sons of Feanor. She counts enough of them as friends to lump them in a group, rather than just "I want to see my friend, Celegorm." She doesn't seem phased by the Oath or by the Kinslaying (perhaps because her brother, Fingon, and her father, Fingolfin, were among the slayers of kin).


1. Does this mean there's more that is worthy and good among the sons of Feanor? Or does it imply that Aredhel may be noble, but not so good, discerning, or empathetic?

2. It's really striking how the Kinslaying doesn't seem to come into play for her. Is she insensitive? She certainly does seem haughty, even to her own brother, Turgon. Is she more vulnerable to the effects of the Oath because of her previous bonds with the sons of Feanor? Why does the Kinslaying and the Oath (which has the whole Doom of Mandos attached to it) not bother her enough so that she keeps her distance from the sons of Feanor?


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 4 2013, 3:50pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 3:55pm

Post #5 of 381 (4803 views)
Shortcut
Eol -- A Dark, Blond Elf? [In reply to] Can't Post

Eol -- A Dark, Blond Elf?

"Of old he was the kin of Thingol, but he was restless and ill at ease in Doriath, and when the Girdle of Melian was set about the Forest of Region where he dwelt he fled thence to Nan Emloth."

"But Eol...was...a tall Elf of a high kin of the Teleri, noble though grim of face ; and his eyes could see deep into shadows and dark places."


1. Eol is constantly referred to as the "Dark Elf," but is that more a reflection of his moriquendi status and his shunning of the sun (which he may associate with the trouble-making, trouble-bringing Noldor), than of his physical appearance?

2. Eol is referred to as "high kin" of the Teleri and kin of Thingol. I'm thinking that he may indeed have been of lighter coloring, rather than raven-haired (which I associate with Aredhel). Thoughts?


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 4:05pm

Post #6 of 381 (4817 views)
Shortcut
Killer Elves or the Curse at Work? [In reply to] Can't Post

Killer Elves or the Curse at Work?

[Curufin to Eol] "By the laws of the Eldar I may not slay you at this time."

"Lord... the guard have taken captive one that came by steath to the Black Gate. Eol he names himself.... we have not slain him as your law commands."

"Suddenly, swift as a serpent, he seized a javelin that he held hid beneath his cloak and cast it at Maeglin, crying: 'The second choice I take and for my son also!'"

"...when Eol was brought before TUrgon he found no mercy; and they led him forth to the Caragdur, a precipice of black rock upon the north side of the hill of Gondolin, there to cast him down from the sheer walls of the city."




1. For enightened beings, there sure is a lot of killing and threat of killing going on -- often for little reason (see Curufin's thwarted threat to kill Eol, for no reason than Eol just knocked on his door; but perhaps we judge Curufin too harshly -- perhaps Eol was always showing up in the middle of the night with pamphlets about some cause or another, or was trying to sell cookware made from galvorn). Is this murderous and near murderous pattern an abberation? Do you find this shocking, coming from Elves? When Morgoth was killing and disturbing things in Arda, the Valar at first locked him up. Is it ill-advised to do what the Valar would not? Take a life (which is what brought the Doom of Mandos upon them in the first place)?

2. Eol is killed after Aredhel dies from her poisoned wound. Was Turgon justified in killing Eol, knowing that Aredhel was immortal, and would likely be released from the Halls of Mandos?

3. Is the killing of Eol a slightly more than meaningless sentance, considering that he, too, is immortal?




.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 4 2013, 4:07pm)


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 4:17pm

Post #7 of 381 (4806 views)
Shortcut
Parallels --Aredhel and Galadriel [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Parallels --Aredhel and Galadriel

Some Aredhel quotes and observations:

"I am your sister and not your servant, and beyond your bounds I will go as seems good to me. And if you begrudge me an escort, I will go alone."

"fearless and hardy"

"But she wearied of the guarded city of Gondolin, desiring ever the longer the more to ride again in the wide lands and to walk in the forests, as had been her wont in Valinor."

"There for a while she was content, and had great joy in wandering free in the woodlands; but as the year lengthened and Celegorm did not return, she became restless again, and took to riding alone ever further abroad, seeking for new paths and untrodden glades."



A lot of this could also describe Galadriel, her cousin. Both want to seek the wide lands. Aredhel wishes to wander and explore. Galadriel, too, with the addition of governing them. They are both proud, and are authority-buckers.



1. Is Aredhel a pale imitation of Galadriel? Or does she have her own, distinct personality? Do you think they were close, having such similar personalities? Interesting... when Aredhel finally gets out of Gondolin, and even arrives at the borders of Doriath, she doesn't inquire whether her cousin Galadriel might be staying there. We know Galadriel was hanging out for a long while in Doriath.... was she there at the time of Aredhel's arrival?

2. A friendship would seemed most natural between Aredhel and Galadriel. Why isn't this described? Is it because Tolkien had some weaknesses with writing female characters? To describe two of them as having a strong bond of friendship and conversations seems natural in reality but is absent in his writings (the closest we get are some lines between Melian and Galadriel). Or do you think they would not have gotten on? Both too proud, too similar?


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jun 4 2013, 4:17pm)


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 4:25pm

Post #8 of 381 (4820 views)
Shortcut
Elves don't make difference between magic and science [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as I know and recall, at least. They don't possess that many abilities which we humans wouldn't, only theirs are stronger and purer. Their "magic" seems mostly be mental; illusions, visions, telepathy. When it comes to making physical objects, it's usually simply so well done it seems like magic to us who don't understand how they function. Our computers would surely seem like magic to people of pre-20th century.

Based on this, I'd galvorn is a result of technology and science, not supernatural powers. Compare it to the "magical" Elven rope of Lothlórien, which the local Elves assumed Sam could learn to make if they teached him.

And before someone points it out, yes, I do realize enchantment and enchanted objects exist in M-E.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 4:35pm

Post #9 of 381 (4800 views)
Shortcut
Maeglin has a clear Fëanorian connection, but [In reply to] Can't Post

you could also say Fëanor and Maeglin are incarnations of the same reoccurring "great magical smith" theme, and thus equals. In this they're accompanied by myriad of other characters from Aulë to Telchar and Saruman. I wouldn't call it boring, but then again I'm biased because I love the smith motif. And especially one of them... Heart

I didn't remember Tolkien called Maeglin the last hope of the Noldor. That is indeed very interesting. Perhaps Maeglin could have functioned as an instrument for peace between Noldor, Sindar, Avari and Dwarves, considering he had connections to them all? Had he not become a traitor and had Turgon died, would the throne of the High King fallen to him or Gil-Galad?

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied

(This post was edited by Faenoriel on Jun 4 2013, 4:35pm)


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 4:44pm

Post #10 of 381 (4784 views)
Shortcut
The animosity the Kinslaying caused is never shown as a positive effect [In reply to] Can't Post

"Death is the reward of sin", not simply because justice will have you, but because ill deeds naturally lead to ill consequences. The Fëanorians did something incredibly wrong, and that's why the others won't trust them. This strife and unforgivance prevents Morgoth's enemies from gathering their full strength into a functional alliance.

In that light, I've never seen Aredhel's friendship with the Sons to be a sign of ill nature. Was Fingon's continued loyalty to Maedhros wrong? No, it was celebrated as a sign of a true, noble heart that cannot be poisoned by the enemy's lies, and the actions born from that one sided loyalty were beneficial. So I'd say Aredhel is simply that strong and true at heart.

In other matters too I'd be unwilling to condemn Aredhel. What did she do wrong, exactly? She's an adult woman, of course she has the right to go where she wishes and meet whom she wants. Turgon's kingship doesn't extend outside his realm, nor into Aredhel personal life.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 4:56pm

Post #11 of 381 (4829 views)
Shortcut
About Curufin and Eöl and the time Tolkien failed [In reply to] Can't Post

In HoME you can read about Tolkien feeling the Sons (especially Curufin and Celegorm) appear too villainous without redeeming qualities, because the readers mostly see them in Lay of Leithian where they are the antagonists. For this Tolkien wished to write a scene where Curufin would get to show his more noble side that reminds the reader he's still a Noldorin prince.

This scene was to be where Curufin spares Eöl's life. The reason for Curufin to kill him was of course that Eöl more or less kidnapped his dear cousin and held her prisoner in a somewhat abusive marriage, from which she had to escape. Curufin could have killed Eöl, and because he was accompanied only by his own loyal servants, he wouldn't have faces any consequences. But he let Eöl live, because killing him would have been a murder.


As for Aredhel's death and Eöl's punishment, I wouldn't take the nature of Elven death and immortality into consideration. Eöl wished her all harm, and she was violently removed from her physical body, and the lives of the people she loved. Dying is unnatural and grievous to Elves, and to those left behind.

However, I've always felt uneasy about Eöl's death. I'm against death sentence IRL so that might have something to do with it. But somehow it seems so brutal for Elves to throw other Elves off cliffs. And there's the matter that Eöl was judged and condemned by the brother of his victim. My modern western sense of justice would require an unbiased, fair trial, not what amounts to a personal revenge.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 5:01pm

Post #12 of 381 (4794 views)
Shortcut
Aredhel and Galadriel were hardly friends [In reply to] Can't Post

Because Galadriel hated Fëanor and therefore likely also his Sons, but Aredhel was their loyal friend.

I see Aredhel as a personality well distinct from Galadriel. She has a clear tomboyish feel to her, something Galadriel lacks despite her athletic side. Galadriel is more of a politician, while Aredhel doesn't seem to care of such matters and prefers outdoors life.

Also, I'm strongly against the notion that Tolkien had problems writing females. He created more male characters, but whenever he created a female, he always made her count. His women are so strong and proud and intelligent. Evil

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 5:05pm

Post #13 of 381 (4792 views)
Shortcut
Love this chapter! [In reply to] Can't Post

One of my absolute favorites. I love the more narrowed focus on just a few characters. Also, this was written for the long version of the Fall of Gondolin, which I love dearly.

1. Is Eol's invention of galvorn an accommplishment soley based on technology and skill, or is there some Elvish "magic" at work? Remember, Tolkien has stated that the magic of the Eldar is something that is just innate to their being.

It's probably a mixture of both. If I remember correctly, wasn't Turin's sword made by Eol out of this same material? If so, perhaps the Elvish "magic" gave it its sentience. Hey, maybe the talking purse is made of galvorn, too!

2. Eol uses enchantment not on stones or steel, or tree or twig, but to snare a sentient being: Aredhel. Is this unusual? Is this misguided? Is this an example of seeking to dominate, of seeking power over another, and thus the seeds of destruction are born? Melain uses her Girdle to ensnare and confuse; it seems Eol did something similar. Is the Girdle of Eol a thing bad, or a thing good, or a thing neutral?

This is an interesting thought. His girdle of enchantment is essentially the opposite of Melian's - designed to keep in rather than keep out. I would definitely say it's misguided, especially since eventually leads to Aredhel's and Maeglin's escape to Gondolin and then ultimately the ramifications of Maeglin being there.

3. Maeglin knows he has at least a chance of reading his mother's mind. Elvish powers? Or just Maeglin powers? Galadriel was said to have this gift as well. Is this an unusual gift? A gift many might have, with greater or lesser skill? If many or most have a shot of reading the minds of others, does it force people to be more honest, knowing hiding the truth might be difficult? What about in real life? We Edain can often tell when actions or gestures or expressions are hiding true intent, even if we can't literally read minds. Does this force us to be more honest, or has it compelled us to be greater dissemblers?

I wonder if this is the same ability discussed in LOTR where the Wise communicate through thought. Since Galadriel is mentioned in both, maybe it's not a general Elvish gift, but just one that some are born with or learn.

4. Is Maeglin a stand-in for Feanor? He seems almost a reincarnation. Feanor's eyes were said to be blue, I believe, and Maeglin's were said to be dark -- but dark could be their value (think light blue/dark blue), or they could be green. Tolkien speaks of Elves and Edain having blue or grey eyes, but it should be noted that Germanic populations (which partly inspired his world) have one of the highest concentrations of green eyes in the world). But I digress with the eye color. Maeglin shares so much with Feanor -- appearance, love of the activities associated with Aule, thirst for knowledge, great orator, keen observor, lust for greatness and achievement, fiercely fell in battle.

Hmm, I've certainly never seen the similarity, but perhaps that's because their stories end up being so radically different. Also, bear in mind it says "greatest save one in the most renowned of their realms (italics mine), so I take that to mean he's the second greatest in Gondolin, not the second greatest overall. What do you think?

5. Is this repetition of Feanorian qualities in one character a boring redux? Or is Maeglin different enough to make it interesting?

I think it's different enough. LIke I said, their stories are ultimately so different. I'd say there are plenty of people in real life that may have the same qualities, but their lives end up so differently.

6. +So+ interesting that Tolkien writes that Maeglin was the "last hope of the Noldor." Is this classic Tolkien hyperbole? Or was this very conciously done, considering the strong parallels between Maeglin and Feanor? And what could have become of that hope anyway? There was still an un-overthrowable Vala to the north. Or did Tolkien mean something different? Was there potential in Maeglin (with so many Feanorian qualities) to bring healing and renewal as the Oath of Feanor brought destruction? Maeglin also forged (pun!) alliances with Dwarves. They would have been more powerful allies, had their purposes and those of the Eldar been more closely aligned. Could that also been part of the hope that was symbolized by Maeglin?

I honestly have no idea what this even means. Does it mean that if Maeglin had never gone to Gondolin, things would have turned out better for the Noldor? Or is it precisely because he went to Gondolin that Earendil ultimately made it to Valinor? I'm sure I have no idea what's meant here.

7. Does this mean there's more that is worthy and good among the sons of Feanor? Or does it imply that Aredhel may be noble, but not so good, discerning, or empathetic?

What's interesting is that it's not the "good" sons like Amras or Maedhros. It's Celegorm and Curufin who are easily the worst of the bunch, IMO. I really don't know what this says about Aredhel. I certainly hope they have more redeeming qualities than what they show when we see them (though I doubt it). It's also especially weird because there is that familial split, so you couldn't simply say that they're cousins and therefore grew up together as friends.

8. It's really striking how the Kinslaying doesn't seem to come into play for her. Is she insensitive? She certainly does seem haughty, even to her own brother, Turgon. Is she more vulnerable to the effects of the Oath because of her previous bonds with the sons of Feanor? Why does the Kinslaying and the Oath (which has the whole Doom of Mandos attached to it) not bother her enough so that she keeps her distance from the sons of Feanor?

You would think that since she had to go over the Ice, she'd be even more angry with the Sons of Feanor. Perhaps she's just especially forgiving (though that seems to go against her proud and willful streak). Who knows.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 5:13pm

Post #14 of 381 (4782 views)
Shortcut
Blond? [In reply to] Can't Post

Blond hair is generally a quality of the Vanyar, so I definitely don't imagine Eol as blond. So aside from the dark hair, I also imagine him as referred to as dark because of his shunning of the sun.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 5:18pm

Post #15 of 381 (4796 views)
Shortcut
Death penalty [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, just because Aredhel would be returned from Mandos eventually doesn't really negate the fact that Eol still slew her body and made her suffer from a poisoned wound for a few hours. If death doesn't matter because of returning to life in Valinor, why are the kinslayings so bad? I think what Eol did was definitely bad, even among the Elves.

Well, Eol would be subjected to time in Mandos, and considering his evil deeds, I'm sure he'd be stuck there for quite a while.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


Jun 4 2013, 5:24pm

Post #16 of 381 (4785 views)
Shortcut
White Lady of the Noldor [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that also a description of Galadriel? I can see why you think they're similar, but again, I've never thought the similarities made them carbon copies of each other.

You bring up a good point about them naturally having a friendship, but it's probably just a result of the writing process. If I recall correctly, this story wasn't written until 1972. Aredhel, then, didn't come into being until long after the rest of the stories had been written. I could be wrong, though.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 5:25pm

Post #17 of 381 (4809 views)
Shortcut
Smoke and mirrors [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for what we know will be an insightful chapter expose, Mac, and no problem with it coming on Tuesday. No AC in all that heat? Yeesh! Worse than being breathed on by Smaug. I hope the heat wave will lessen soon.

Re: Eol. The funny thing about Tolkien and magic, despite his treatise on it, is that he seems to invent it on the fly when he needs it. (More to come in the Beren & Lu chapter where they'd be hopeless without it.) In this chapter, the use of magic sets up Eol as a mysterious, shifty character. He could have met Aredhel on the edge of his forest, wooed her with his great charm, and led her as happy bride back to his home. Or he could have physically ambushed her and dragged her home by the hair. Instead he uses tricks and deceits, making readers instantly dislike him and figure that whatever comes of this union, it can't be good.

A little surprising that Aredhel is "not wholly unwilling" at first. The rebellious girl likes the bad boy on the motorcycle? Surprising to me because she seems intelligent, and strong-willed, so why submit to this dark-hearted thuggish guy, kept as his prisoner, not much more than a concubine? Not that this thing never happens in the real world, but I think she needs a big brother around to beat up Eol and slap some sense into her and drag her home. Even her Feanorial cousins seem like they'd happily do that.

So did Eol use magic in creating galvorn, or use his natural enchantments? I think galvorn came from natural enchantment, but snaring Aredhel was pure magic, what Galadriel would call "the deceits of the Enemy." His intent is to trap and dominate her and seems unnatural. By no coincidence, it happens in the same woods where Melian *seemed* to trap Thingol via enchantment, but that was wholesome and consensual. Do you suppose Tolkien made Aredhel partly willing so this wouldn't be disturbing as a basic capture and rape? It's no accident that this unnatural pairing spawned a son with unnatural, incestuous desires. What do you suppose motivates Eol to be like this? Excess isolation, similar to Melkor spending too much time in the Void seeking the Flame? But Eol has servants (as creepy as he is) and can leave the forest when he wanted, so he's a curmudgeon at best who shuns his own kind, and a sociopath at worst. Are there other Dark Elves (in Turgon's use of the word, meaning dark at heart) lurking in other places of the world, or is Eol an exception? He's kin to Thingol: is he jealous that he didn't get the kingship of Beleriand?

Next, what is it with Tolkien and metal?? Isn't mithril cool enough? Later we'll get another special metal in Telchar, made from a meteorite. As much as Tolkien loves trees, he always admires smiths and their handiwork. If Yavanna and Aule are yin and yang, Tolkien has them in equal measure.

Telepathy: my impression is that Elves may all have it to some degree (they use it freely in "Many Partings" in LOTR), but they would use it consensually. Maeglin is reminiscent of Gollum, trying to pry out secrets unscrupulously. His father is a quasi-rapist; the son is a would-be mind violator. Isn't it hard to picture these two Elves in LOTR, where all the Elves are good? Or was Gildor wandering the Shire looking for stray hobbit-lasses--see, doesn't that seem shockingly impossible?

OK, my lunch hour is running out and my diatribe is too. It's sort of fun having villains in the story besides Morgoth, someone I can easily vilify.

I really like your last question:

Quote
Does this force us to be more honest, or has it compelled us to be greater dissemblers?

I wish it made us more honest, but honestly (oops), I think it makes Edain greater dissemblers.



CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 5:38pm

Post #18 of 381 (4772 views)
Shortcut
My sentiments exactly [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice to see you here, Faenoriel, and thanks for joining in.


In Reply To
However, I've always felt uneasy about Eöl's death. I'm against death sentence IRL so that might have something to do with it. But somehow it seems so brutal for Elves to throw other Elves off cliffs. And there's the matter that Eöl was judged and condemned by the brother of his victim. My modern western sense of justice would require an unbiased, fair trial, not what amounts to a personal revenge.

You articulated my feelings about this passage. Turgon is one of my favorites, but my gut tells me he went too far here, especially throwing Eol off a cliff. Not that there are pleasant ways to execute people, but disturbing = disturbing. I don't like this example of "justice."

On the other hand, I can relate to Turgon as a character. He seems deeply fond of his sister, and he's acting purely on emotion. I'm not excusing him, but I think he's being "human." If he wisely said that Eol should sit in a dungeon for a few centuries to contemplate his evil ways, it wouldn't seem quite real. But then, isn't this another Kinslaying? Elves don't kill Elves, which is why they capitalize Kinslayings. When do the Noldor stop doing this? Or are there other executions in Beleriand we don't read about, or has Turgon gotten used to killing the stray people who stumble upon the outer entrance to his kingdom?

Thanks for adding Tolkien's sentiments on Curufin. I didn't know he wrote this part intentionally to balance Curufin's character, but I'm glad he did, because it makes the book richer. Curufin remains all too easily disposed to violence in his threats to Eol, but his threats come from a sort of brotherly (cousinly) concern for Aredhel, so it's a mixed bag, whereas in the Beren & Lu story, he's pure bad.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 5:52pm

Post #19 of 381 (4767 views)
Shortcut
Warning! You have sparked recurring bursts of laughter from me at work! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm having trouble covering them up. This is just so funny:


Quote
but perhaps we judge Curufin too harshly -- perhaps Eol was always showing up in the middle of the night with pamphlets about some cause or another, or was trying to sell cookware made from galvorn)



ltnjmy
Rivendell


Jun 4 2013, 5:53pm

Post #20 of 381 (4756 views)
Shortcut
FABULOUS thread and all of the postings were awesome [In reply to] Can't Post

That is why I love this site so much !!!!Smile


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 5:59pm

Post #21 of 381 (4740 views)
Shortcut
Glad you enjoy them, Itnjmy, and thanks for saying so! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 6:10pm

Post #22 of 381 (4753 views)
Shortcut
It's such a fabulous fandom. Wisest and kindest. Tolkien's spirit is upon it. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


Faenoriel
Tol Eressea


Jun 4 2013, 6:16pm

Post #23 of 381 (4771 views)
Shortcut
All good girls want bad boys [In reply to] Can't Post

(Expect I'm not a good girl, and he's not a bad boy.)

Yes, what could possibly attract woman like Aredhel to a man like Eöl? They're like the ray of sunshine and the goblin. Eöl represents everything she wanted to escape from in Gondolin. One must wonder if it truly was some evil magic that lured her in, like a fly to the spider.

But every word you say today
Gets twisted 'round some other way
And they'll hurt you if they think you've lied


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 6:24pm

Post #24 of 381 (4741 views)
Shortcut
Two Ladies in White [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm glad you ask this question, Maciliel,

Quote
Is Aredhel a pale imitation of Galadriel?

because on first read, I totally thought so. Since characters have multiple names, at first (when she's leaving Gondolin, not later) I wondered if Aredhel would turn out to be Galadriel, given their similarities, and then I was confused on how she could be in Doriath too. Galadriel is described in Lorien as "a slender Elf-woman clad in simple white," and Aredhel only wears white. Pale (punny!) imitation is right, because Aredhel has less depth and wisdom than Galadriel. Galadriel never gets a whole chapter to herself like her cousin does, but she seems more fleshed out as a character with all those brief appearances she makes, peeking out from behind curtains
(or Galadriel-style would be sweeping them aside with a bold flourish).

It does make you wonder if these two girl-cousins in an extended royal family of men stuck together, or were they too similar so that kept them apart? I can see some rivalry here too, both being so proud and not wanting to be lumped together as just "the girls" at family picnics.

Though I appreciate the points others have made: yes, Aredhel is more tomboyish, and she's not interested in politics. Honestly, she seems less mature, like a girl who wants to go outside and play, and she wants to play with the bad boys down the street that Father (really Big Brother) has forbidden, and seems to go to them out of one teen rebellion, then marries another bad boy out of another teen rebellion. Then she has a kid, grows up, gets some sense, and runs home for shelter. Which is odd, because assuming she knew where the Seven Sons of Feanor lived, couldn't she have made a shorter trip for refuge and gone to Himring or Maglor's Gap? I mean, Maglor had a Gap named after him, so if you can find the gap, you can find him or at least his home. And she seemed to have as much protection there from Eol as she would in Gondolin. (Did Eol have a GPS stashed in her saddle?)

Isn't everything about his chapter DARK, in contrast to Aredhel being the White Lady? Aredhel makes foolish decisions and gets lost in a dark forest, is stuck in a dark marriage, has a kid with dark hair, and both her son and husband have dark temperaments. Then her brother acts very darkly in executing her husband, and her son develops darkly incestuous feelings toward his cousin. Idril, with scant mention, is the only one who doesn't seem dark--must be that silver foot glittering.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jun 4 2013, 7:02pm

Post #25 of 381 (4748 views)
Shortcut
Lovely presentation Telpemairo! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

1. Is Eol's invention of galvorn an accommplishment soley based on technology and skill, or is there some Elvish "magic" at work? Remember, Tolkien has stated that the magic of the Eldar is something that is just innate to their being. I think it is innate, a cleverness and an intimate knowledge of the materials - seems appropriate that Eol would be drawn to metal, particularly dark-colored metal, as he prefers the twilight; and that with his tie to Arda he has great love of the materials he finds therein.

2. Eol uses enchantment not on stones or steel, or tree or twig, but to snare a sentient being: Aredhel. Is this unusual? Is this misguided? Is this an example of seeking to dominate, of seeking power over another, and thus the seeds of destruction are born? Melain uses her Girdle to ensnare and confuse; it seems Eol did something similar. Is the Girdle of Eol a thing bad, or a thing good, or a thing neutral? I can see you parallel, and it makes sense; it may not be outright domination bit it certainly influence and guidance towards the will of the maker. And we do know that no good ever seems to come form this sort of business.

3. Maeglin knows he has at least a chance of reading his mother's mind. Elvish powers? Or just Maeglin powers? Galadriel was said to have this gift as well. Is this an unusual gift? A gift many might have, with greater or lesser skill? If many or most have a shot of reading the minds of others, does it force people to be more honest, knowing hiding the truth might be difficult? What about in real life? We Edain can often tell when actions or gestures or expressions are hiding true intent, even if we can't literally read minds. Does this force us to be more honest, or has it compelled us to be greater dissemblers? I think it also an innateness of the Firstborn, though because of the similarities of Maeglin and his mother his chances were better; and I think there is probably a skill level, varying with the sensitivity of the Elf as well as the closeness of the Elves involved. As far as Edain go, we still try to dissemble, but the sensitive and observant can often read the unintended body language regardless. So maybe a similar skill, de-evolved to a coarser level.


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 ... 16 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.