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imin
Valinor
Jun 5 2013, 7:30pm
Post #176 of 188
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What darkstone is saying is complete fan fiction - from himself.
But whatever i will just agree to disagree with him as clearly he cannot admit he is wrong though many people have pointed out where he is going wrong, oh well, its not like it is actually real, lol.
And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.
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imin
Valinor
Jun 5 2013, 7:39pm
Post #177 of 188
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None of what you just said proves anything.
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Any character can have a disguise and i will accept it if there is anything that says so in the books, but what you are doing is looking at one story - beren and luthien's story and then transplanting ideas from that onto other completely different characters - the ringwraiths. That is fan fic - though it is from yourself so maybe you have thought this for so long it has become 'real' to you.
I see the cloak as any type of clothing - when i put on a coat it goes from unformed clothing to taking my form. It does not infer any magical ability or transform an invisible person to being a black man, haha. They are still invisible - if they were not so, then isn't it odd that frodo comments on how he sees him with the ring on? As Gandalf would say something along the lines of 'but frodo everyone can see him, he is just a standard black guy'. But no that doesn't happen because the cloak does nothing but give a form to the ringwraith as the ringwraith without is invisible and parts not covered by the cloak remain invisible unless covered by something else eg. gloves, boots etc.
As i said at the beginning, think whatever you want but it's not correct, so i will agree to disagree as you can't see it from anyone else's point of view. Goodluck.
And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 5 2013, 7:53pm
Post #178 of 188
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...I am more than willing to concede that others interpret the word "form" differently. Indeed, I understand all their arguments against mine own. I just don't agree with them despite their lengthy defense.
There is no indication in Tolkien's legendarium that any of the Nazgul have magical cloaks.
So the Nazgul could just use any old cloak?
That sounds like the kind of addition made for a video game or the old MERP role-playing game.
Never played those, though I'm thinking of signing up ffor LOTRO.
The only magical cloaks that I know of at all in Middle-earth lore were either the grey cloaks of the Lothlorien Elves or the cloak belonging to Sauron's Vampire-servant Thuringwethil.
“It is told In the Lay of Leithian how she escaped from the house in Hirilorn; for she put forth her arts of enchantment, and caused her hair to grow to great length, and of it she wove a dark robe that wrapped her beauty like a shadow, and it was laden with a spell of sleep. Of the strands that remained she twined a rope, and she let it down from her window; and as the end swayed above the guards that sat beneath the tree they fell into a deep slumber. Then Luthien climbed from her prison, and shrouded in her shadowy cloak she escaped from all eyes, and vanished out of Doriath.”
-The Sil
“… and out of that storm Ulmo Lord of Waters arose in majesty and spoke to Tuor as he stood beside the sea. And Ulmo bade him depart from that place and seek out the hidden kingdom of Gondolin; and he gave Tuor a great cloak, to mantle him in shadow from the eyes of his enemies."
-ibid
I could go on.
The bodies and normal clothing of the Ring-wraiths were invisible in the mortal plane. Only their cloaks and other traveling gear (gloves, boots, etc). allowed them to be seen at all.
Tolkien only mentions them wearing black robes and hauberks of silver mail. Any traveling gear would have been part of the "form" the cloak gave.
Since others couldn't see their pallid, white faces, their imaginations would take over (since the minds of most observers would probably fail if they acknowledged what they were actually seeing). Most of those you cited never even saw a Nazgul up close (Nod of Bree and Butterbur in particular). “’These black men,' said the landlord lowering his voice. 'They're looking for “Baggins,” and if they mean well, then I'm a hobbit. It was on Monday, and all the dogs were yammering and the geese screaming. Uncanny, I called it. Nob, he came and told me that two black men were at the door asking for a hobbit called Baggins. Nob's hair was all stood on end. I bid the black fellows be off, and slammed the door on them; but they've been asking the same question all the way to Archet, I hear.’”
Rather close.
******************************************
Brother will fight brother and both be his slayer,
Brother and sister will violate all bonds of kinship;
Hard it will be in the world, there will be much failure of honor,
An age of axes, an age of swords, where shields are shattered,
An age of winds, an age of wolves, where the world comes crashing down;
No man will spare another.
-From the Völuspá, 13th Century
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jun 5 2013, 7:56pm
Post #179 of 188
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This "argument" has taken an extremely bizarre turn...
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But at the same time, it's kind of comical...
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 5 2013, 8:01pm
Post #180 of 188
(4407 views)
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******************************************
Brother will fight brother and both be his slayer,
Brother and sister will violate all bonds of kinship;
Hard it will be in the world, there will be much failure of honor,
An age of axes, an age of swords, where shields are shattered,
An age of winds, an age of wolves, where the world comes crashing down;
No man will spare another.
-From the Völuspá, 13th Century
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 5 2013, 8:04pm
Post #181 of 188
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Okay, you score a minor point or two...
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We can find more examples of magical cloaks if one looks hard enough. And I overlooked the passage where Nod and Butterbur encounter a pair of Nazgul before Frodo and his companions arrive in Bree. Still, nowhere does Tolkien explicitly say that the cloaks of the Nazgul carried any enchantment. You are reading more into what is written than was intended. And, yes, any large black cloak would do.
I still contend that all either of them actually saw were the Wraiths' outer clothes and gear, with their heads hidden in shadow. All they could see was black so they assumed black men and their minds filled in the details.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 5 2013, 8:06pm)
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imin
Valinor
Jun 5 2013, 8:09pm
Post #182 of 188
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Seeing things which isnt there is very common
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It is called pareidolia, a form of apophenia. Very interesting stuff. It is how i would explain ghosts to relate to the ghost poll in pollantir, lol.
I see no reason why people in Bree wouldn't do the same. So like you i agree that people called them black as they were wearing a black cloak and where their head should be was black (as they are invisible) and so their brain filled the rest in.
And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.
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imin
Valinor
Jun 5 2013, 8:23pm
Post #183 of 188
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https://fasinfrankvintage.com/...banks-400a111306.jpg
Or is this a ringwraith?
http://www.google.co.uk/...biw=1280&bih=709
 
And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.
(This post was edited by imin on Jun 5 2013, 8:24pm)
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jun 5 2013, 8:23pm
Post #184 of 188
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The fact that there are some black extras in the film is not going to affect the story, which is really what's important. But I still see it as a PC move on the part of the filmmakers, since they caught some heat before regarding casting hobbit extras based on race. Lake-town was not written as being some sort of multicultural metropolis with immigrant traders from all corners of Middle-earth, which is what some here have argued. Having black extras in Lake-town is fine, but it's not rooted in anything Tolkien ever wrote, hence my belief that it's simply PC pandering to avoid further moronic accusations of "Middle-earth has trolls, goblins, and elves, but no black people", or "all the villains are dark-skinned and all the good guys are light-skinned", which, sadly, have often been leveled against both the books and the films.
Anyway, I think I've had enough of this thread for now LOL.
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Jun 5 2013, 8:25pm)
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imin
Valinor
Jun 5 2013, 8:26pm
Post #185 of 188
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Yeah i would agree then. I can understand why the film makers have done it and am not bothered by it but at the end of the day it is pandering like you say.
And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 5 2013, 8:30pm
Post #186 of 188
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...if just any old cloak would do why didn't they just grab one off a clothesline rather than go all the way back to Mordor when they got washed away in the Loudwater?
As for the pareidolia, Tolkien was obviously quite familiar with the phenomenon. Indeed it appears to be one of his themes. Way back when in the Reading Room weaver led a really insightful thematic discussion about "seeming moments" in Tolkien, how sometimes he presents things as certain, and other times he presents things as "seeming".
Tolkien doesn't present the Nazgul as "seeming to be black men" or "looking like black men" but as simply "black men".
******************************************
Brother will fight brother and both be his slayer,
Brother and sister will violate all bonds of kinship;
Hard it will be in the world, there will be much failure of honor,
An age of axes, an age of swords, where shields are shattered,
An age of winds, an age of wolves, where the world comes crashing down;
No man will spare another.
-From the Völuspá, 13th Century
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jun 5 2013, 8:31pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 5 2013, 8:42pm
Post #187 of 188
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The Wraiths still needed new mounts
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...if just any old cloak would do why didn't they just grab one off a clothesline rather than go all the way back to Mordor when they got washed away in the Loudwater?
As for the pareidolia, Tolkien was obviously quite familiar with the phenomenon. Indeed it appears to be one of his themes. Way back when in the Reading Room weaver led a really insightful thematic discussion about "seeming moments" in Tolkien, how sometimes he presents things as certain, and other times he presents things as "seeming".
Tolkien doesn't present the Nazgul as "seeming to be black men" or "looking like black men" but as simply "black men".
Oridinary horses would have nothing to do with the Nazgul, so they had no choice but to slink back to their Master.
As to the rest, We should probably agree to disagree.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 5 2013, 9:01pm
Post #188 of 188
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As to the rest, We should probably agree to disagree.
Now that I can agree with!
******************************************
Brother will fight brother and both be his slayer,
Brother and sister will violate all bonds of kinship;
Hard it will be in the world, there will be much failure of honor,
An age of axes, an age of swords, where shields are shattered,
An age of winds, an age of wolves, where the world comes crashing down;
No man will spare another.
-From the Völuspá, 13th Century
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