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Silmarillion Chapter 15: Of the Noldor in Beleriand
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Brethil
Half-elven


May 26 2013, 10:16am

Post #1 of 45 (693 views)
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Silmarillion Chapter 15: Of the Noldor in Beleriand Can't Post

In this chapter the pieces on the board are being put into place. Ulmo is quietly organizing behind the scenes for events that will unite these two great Elven Kingdoms, both destined for violent oblivion...and in keeping safe the hope of Elves and Men.
Enjoy! And of course feel more than free to raise any other any other questions or....curiosities Wink.

Gondolin is Ready, and Ulmo Counsels Turgon.
The second of the great Elf strongholds inspired by the dream sent by Ulmo to Turgon and Finrod is completed. Nargothrond is delved, and after fifty two years in secret making, Gondolin, the Hidden Rock, is ready at last. Ulmo comes again to Turgon, and relates to him many things: He (Ulmo) will hide Gondolin with his power in beloved Sirion; Gondolin will last the longest; and this very telling piece: "But love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea." Ulmo also tells Turgon that he is still under the Doom of Mandos, which Ulmo cannot change; but to look for the hope for Elves and Men in someone who will come from Nevrast. Ulmo instructs Turgon to prepare equipment in specific stature for he that will come.
A gold and silver tree does Turgon make; yet fairer than both of these was his daughter Idril Celebrindal, the Silver-foot. While young Idril walks in beauty in Gondolin, the now-emptied land of Nevrast lies silent.

**Ulmo has a vested interest in preserving Gondolin: but clearly he can see its end - and thus implying that he forsees the end of Nargothrond as well. Is there a common purpose uniting these two strongholds, for the future and hopes of Middle Earth, deeper than just defense?
**"But love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea." Obviously Ulmo has a Plan - what do you think of how he is going about it? Ulmo seems to function very well when left to his own devices, doesn't he?

Secrets - Always Troublesome - Begin to Surface.
As Gondolin and Nargothrond are being made, Galadriel stays in Doriath and speaks often with Melian; but Galadriel is hiding secrets. Melian looks into Galadriel's soul, and finally she speaks about the Exile: but not of the Oath or the Kinslaying. Melain discusses these tiding with Thingol, who grieves for Finwe but takes no heed of Melain's warning against the dangers inexorably entwined with the sons of Feanor.

**"Their swords and their counsels shall have two edges." Despite Melian's words, Thingol is *STILL* not forewarned. Why is Thingol so...for lack of a better word...dense?
**"Of his (Feanor's) sons I hear little to my pleasure; yet they are likely to prove the deadliest of foes to our foe." What does this statement say about Thingol's ethics, his motives, his values? And that Melian simply accepts this statement with the comment above...?

Murder Will Out: Thingol Hears the Truth

Morgoth gleefully sends forth tidings of his own - dirty details of the deeds of the Noldor. The Sindar begin to talk, and Cirdan hears some troubling tales. Sensing unrest and malice centered on the Noldor houses, he sends cautionary word to Thingol. Finrod, visiting his kinsman, bears the first brunt of Thingol's anger; yet he keeps silent. Angrod, however, does not: still stung by the brash rudeness of Caranthir, he bears the sons of Feanor no love - and tells all of the damning events. Thingol now realizes that the Noldor were never messengers, and that his own kin were trodden underfoot. In his anger Thingol tells the sons of Finarfin to leave, and return when his heart cools. But he bans the Quenya tongue, as the language of slayers and betrayers.

**Keeping the Girdle laced up tight: the shadow of the house of Feanor? Or, considering the personalities of Thingol and Melian, inevitable?
**And this about Melian: she foretells so many things, sees the heirs of Feanor as dangerous, saying, "They (the Silmarils) shall not be recovered, I foretell, by the power of the Eldar; and the world shall be broken in battles that are to come, ere they are wrested from Morgoth..." Yet, when the day is done "they spoke no more of this matter." Wait? What? Is it the time to 'no longer speak' of these things - ummm, like 'looming destruction'? What the heck is going on here?
**Banning the melodic Quenya tongue and branding it criminal in Doriath: an act of pique, or something with deeper, divisive political implications?

Finrod Gets a Bad Feeling

Galadriel comes to Nargothrond for a visit when it was done (Gondolin not yet so) and asks Finrod (called 'the Faithful') why he has no wife. Though there is one that he loves, left behind in Valinor, Finrod receives a chilling foresight, and speaks..."An oath too shall I swear, and must be free to fulfill it, and go into darkness. Nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit."

**Why do you think Ulmo picked Finrod, among other Elves, to live in Nargothrond?
**Can't quite make this out: where does the 'foresight' come from: is it some sort of vision/intuition, or does someone send Finrod that message?



Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


telain
Rohan

May 27 2013, 12:19am

Post #2 of 45 (430 views)
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a (few) early thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

Is there a common purpose uniting these two strongholds, for the future and hopes of Middle Earth, deeper than just defense?

"But love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea." Obviously Ulmo has a Plan - what do you think of how he is going about it? Ulmo seems to function very well when left to his own devices, doesn't he?


I think there is something deeper than merely defense. Ulmo may be doing his best to prepare Turgon and Finrod for what lies ahead, but also to keep them (at least Turgon in this case) aware that Middle-earth is not their final destination. Also, keeping these strongholds safe for a while may provide the time needed for these peoples to learn a few things -- about themselves, about Middle-earth, and about how not to take help from the Valar (and one's own greatness) for granted.

One curious point about Gondolin: not only is it protected by the Sirion and the underground waterways that delved the secret passage, but Gondolin was built on a vale that "...had been a great lake in ancient days." Perhaps that land still has some of Ulmo's power leftover...

And Ulmo reminds Turgon that true hope comes from the Sea -- the Sirion is great, but only a rather largish drop compared to what power Ulmo has in the ocean. He is also reminding Turgon that although he is hiding out in a moutain realm (not the most acqueous of places) means Ulmo will not be able to help them to his full extent. He is also, I think, warning Turgon about a false sense of security in seclusion and that threats may be internal as well (foreshadowing the eventual disclosure of the the Oath, the Kinslaying, and the burning of the ships at Losgar.)

Ulmo has a very interesting take on his own position. He helps (i.e., he is not without meddling,) but he seems to know better boundaries than most. He obviously knows who will eventually warn Turgon, but he knows better than to him his name or where he will come from. But he is wise enough to pass along the fellow's measurements so that an appropriate sword and arms will fit the lad!

"Their swords and their counsels shall have two edges." Despite Melian's words, Thingol is *STILL* not forewarned. Why is Thingol so...for lack of a better word...dense?
"Of his (Feanor's) sons I hear little to my pleasure; yet they are likely to prove the deadliest of foes to our foe." What does this statement say about Thingol's ethics, his motives, his values? And that Melian simply accepts this statement with the comment above...?


First of all, Galadriel in this scene with Melian is fairly awesome. To stand eye to eye with a Maia and not divulge your secrets -- I suspect one must have a will like few others. So, fair play to you, Galadriel.

Thingol is wise enough to see the value in using the Noldor's strength against Morgoth, though he is a bit single-minded and possibly unethical. It is a bit of a tough call, the Noldor have arrived, they've arrayed themselves in all the most dangerous places, and now Thingol and Melian are getting stroppy because they aren't the messengers that they hoped the Noldor would be (and that the Noldor never claimed to be). But then again, the Noldor do have a few things weighing heavily on their conscious. But then some of them never took part in any of that Feanor business and some are very actively trying to make up for very serious mistakes.

It is interesting that Thingol sees no problem with getting "insider information" from Melian, but condemns Finrod for keeping secrets. I think Finrod took a very high ground under such accusation. Finrod and Galadriel have some excellent moments in this chapter.

And, I do think that Finrod just "gets" a feeling when he claims his own Oath. I think he realizes the gravity of the larger situation and maybe, just maybe, there was a message from Ulmo in that last sip of water he took while Galadriel asked him the question...

Finally, this excellent question:Banning the melodic Quenya tongue and branding it criminal in Doriath: an act of pique, or something with deeper, divisive political implications?

Absolutely deep, deep divisive political (cultural!) implications. So often language is used as a marker of what is acceptable and what is not. He is punishing the Noldor for being Noldor and every time one of them slips up, they will know it. He is elevating the Middle-earth Sindaran language over the Quenya spoken in Valinor so that the Noldor will understand just how completely they abused the privilege of being there. He is reminding them that they are exiles. With. every. word. I may be taking this too far, but even the Sindarin name for Gondolin (Hidden Rock) seems like a slur compared to Ondolinde (Rock of the Music of Water).

One more note on this: I find it odd that the SIndar are the musically and vocally gifted singers, yet Quenya is described as the more melodic language. Hisilome v. Hithlum is one example, as is Ondolinde and Gondolin...

Thank you, Brethil! I see this is going to be another engaging discussion!


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


May 27 2013, 9:23am

Post #3 of 45 (423 views)
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The Cold War in Beleriand [In reply to] Can't Post

The actual fighting has died down with the misleadingly easy repulse of the dragon. But nor is there, nor can there be, any lasting accommodation between the elves and Morgoth. It's a Cold War ish period. (I don't mean that this chapter is "really about" that period of real-life history, just that running with the comparison might be interesting.)

Let's start with...

Secret Royal construction project in the Mountains! (Probably known as "Area-G" to the conspiracy theorist of the time). Disappearances, as Turgon's people slowly vanish into the completed city of Gondolin! I've just been reading All The President's Men, so I had fun imagining The Beleriand Post's investigative reporters Carl Burningstone and Bob Woodelf slowly unravelling the story. I guess Beleriand is thinly populated, and perhaps people can slip off a bit more easily. But it seems odd that this doesn't alarm the other Elvish princes more, elf-snatching being a classic Morgothian trick.

"But love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart"...its the recurring elvish vice. The Silmarils, obviously, and also their wish to preserve their second-age holdings in Middle-earth leading to willingness to do a dodgy deal involving Rings of Power.

Meanwhile, tokens are left by which to recognise a hero in the future, and the King has a pretty daughter. Hmm...now where might that be leading?

Thingol's realpolitik:
"Of his (Feanor's) sons I hear little to my pleasure; yet they are likely to prove the deadliest of foes to our foe." Sounds very cold war politician to me. Those Noldor may be a bit odd, and think they are so superior because they've been to Valinor, but (as we know from our geography studies under Master Telain last chapter) they have not only broken the siege that was around Thingol's kingdom, but they've also established a line of buffer states likely to bear the brunt of future attacks. I think Thingol would like to be a kind of Switzerland (more woody & fewer mountains) - get on with with things inside his country's girdle, and be left alone by the squabbling powers outside. In Cold-War terms, hold your nose and support the dodgy anti-communist regime (or dodgy communist regime, depending on which side one was on). But finally the news of war crimes against his kin is an issue he can't ignore. Maybe the banning of Quenya is a comparatively measured diplomatic response (c.f. immediate armed revenge - on the Noldor, or on Morgoth for killing Finwe). However, this linguistic rule's another barrier to the re-integration of the Noldor into Middle-earth elvish culture however.

What is Galadriel's motivation in this final scene?
The more distant "mythic" style keeps us a bit further from the action, I can't really see how the Finrod/Galadriel conversation goes. Is Galadriel tentatively offering a marriage alliance (for hard-headed realpolitik reasons - this is Galadriel after all- or for romantic ones)? Or is it just friendly curiosity, or cousinly concern that he ought to get over left-behind Amarie & do his princely duty of getting his house an heir?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


sador
Half-elven


May 27 2013, 2:44pm

Post #4 of 45 (411 views)
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Answers [In reply to] Can't Post

Ulmo has a vested interest in preserving Gondolin: but clearly he can see its end - and thus implying that he forsees the end of Nargothrond as well. Is there a common purpose uniting these two strongholds, for the future and hopes of Middle Earth, deeper than just defense?
Well, he did send Arminas and Gelmir to warn Orodreth.

Regarding Gondolin, there was clearly a Plan - involving Tuor and Earendil. I am not quite sure of Nagothrond.

"But love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea." Obviously Ulmo has a Plan - what do you think of how he is going about it?

Trying his best; but trusting an Elf - that's a bit too much even for him.

Ulmo seems to function very well when left to his own devices, doesn't he?
You mean, when acting behind the backs of the other Valar? Yes.

"Their swords and their counsels shall have two edges." Despite Melian's words, Thingol is *STILL* not forewarned. Why is Thingol so...for lack of a better word...dense?
What else should he have done? Marched against them?

"Of his (Feanor's) sons I hear little to my pleasure; yet they are likely to prove the deadliest of foes to our foe." What does this statement say about Thingol's ethics, his motives, his values?

Once again - just remember what Maedhros said two chapters ago.
I am sure he was thanful (and Melian as well), that he had them as quite remote neighbours, keeping the orcs at bay.

Also, his statement is quite the same as Tolkien's regarding the swords of the Nodor in chapter 7.

And that Melian simply accepts this statement with the comment above...?
That's one thing I don't quite like in Tolkien's work on the Silmarillion in the early 1950s - he gave Melian all those wise-with-Tolkien's-hindsight lines to declaim. Probably once his view of the Maiar became rather more exalted than when they were mere "fays" or minor spirits, he felt she must have been really wise.
So he gave her all these lines, making her sound like a Greek chorus, worse, like a Cassandra who was never heeded - making Thingol look a fool and her a discontented wife (which actually makes her seem less the wise for marrying him in the first place).

Keeping the Girdle laced up tight: the shadow of the house of Feanor?
I'm not quite sure, as the Noldor were not exactly welcome in Doriath before - considering that they were the heirs of his good friend Finwe.

Or, considering the personalities of Thingol and Melian, inevitable?
It could be both, of course. But this seems very much like Thingol, as his character will unfold.
(Which is exactly how it happened, seeing that this part is one of the latest additions to the Silmarillion).

Wait? What? Is it the time to 'no longer speak' of these things - ummm, like 'looming destruction'?

The line you quoted has nothing to say about the sons of Feanor, you know.
And she is wrong - as one Silmaril will come, even to Doriath itself, before those battles.

What the heck is going on here?
At least she doesn't nag overmuch.

Banning the melodic Quenya tongue and branding it criminal in Doriath: an act of pique, or something with deeper, divisive political implications?
Just one of the things Tolkien would love!
But wars against language did occur in ancient times; and yes, it is a clear way to separate peoples.


Why do you think Ulmo picked Finrod, among other Elves, to live in Nargothrond?
Well, he was the one who was the most reluctant to leave Valinor; and also the one who gets along best with Dwarves, and (in the future) with Men.

Can't quite make this out: where does the 'foresight' come from: is it some sort of vision/intuition, or does someone send Finrod that message?

"Someone" moves in mysterious ways.


CuriousG
Valinor


May 27 2013, 5:58pm

Post #5 of 45 (396 views)
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Of Gondolin and random chapters [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the very rich analysis of this chapter, Brethil! You brought out the many different layers going on in the story here, and I'm not sure what layer to start on.

I call this a "random" chapter because it seems spliced together from two unrelated sources. There's the first chunk about Turgon and Gondolin, but the second chunk isn't about Nargothrond in the same vein and is more about Beleriand politics. But I enjoy it anyway, especially for the character development, which is more abundant here than in many other chapters.

Ulmo has a vested interest in preserving Gondolin: but clearly he can see its end - and thus implying that he forsees the end of Nargothrond as well. Is there a common purpose uniting these two strongholds, for the future and hopes of Middle Earth, deeper than just defense?

A question I have also. I think Ulmo has great foresight (like everyone in this chapter) and can see the ultimate destruction of Beleriand, and out of pity, he wants the Noldor to survive in at least a couple of places. But though these two places of refuge are to endure for centuries, they are supposed to be temporary, in Ulmo's grand scheme. Isn't that interesting? He tells the industrious Noldor to build a couple of great cities while planning all along to tell them to evacuate them in the future. Telling Turgon to not love Gondolin too much is like telling your kids not to get excited about their birthday party--you should know better and you can't blame the kids for being the way they are.

If Ulmo wants a portion of the Noldor population to survive, why not inspire Turgon and Finrod to migrate down south to Gondor or Umbar, way beyond Morgoth's current reach instead of at his front door? And what are the ethics of inspiring just a couple of Noldorin princes to prepare hidden refuges--why not tell them all? Or are only Turgon and Finrod receptive to him? There's a certain tokenism going on too. Ulmo chooses one prince from Fingolfin's house and one from Finarfin's house to become secret survivors, but noticeably skips the house of Feanor. Does he feel like their doom is too great for him to mess with, or does he have no pity for them, or is there another reason?

"But love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea."
Here's a bombshell from Arda Reconstructed about this famous line (which I thoroughly love for the way it encapsulates Tolkien's mythology). It's possibly not from JRR himself, but from Christopher, since it's not a line from any of Tolkien's published notes and drafts. That's a bombshell to me, anyway, since 1) it seems so very JRR, and 2) many of Chris's edits are ho-hum, and this is way beyond ho-hum.

As for Ulmo having a plan, I often wonder if Tolkien deliberately makes the Valar so infuriatingly uninvolved in Middle-earth that Ulmo shines in comparison by being so sympathetic and sneakily helping these people he knows he's not supposed to help (or not help to this extent). It's like Ulmo can't help himself, he cares so much. Gotta love that guy.


CuriousG
Valinor


May 27 2013, 6:41pm

Post #6 of 45 (392 views)
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Of dirty secrets and politics [In reply to] Can't Post

**"Their swords and their counsels shall have two edges." Despite Melian's words, Thingol is *STILL* not forewarned. Why is Thingol so...for lack of a better word...dense?
**"Of his (Feanor's) sons I hear little to my pleasure; yet they are likely to prove the deadliest of foes to our foe." What does this statement say about Thingol's ethics, his motives, his values? And that Melian simply accepts this statement with the comment above...?
In his post-Beren & Lu phase in the Children of Hurin, Thingol seems remarkably wise and compassionate. But before that, he seems dense indeed and cynical to boot in his casual inclination to use other people. Or one could say he's a pragmatic politician regarding how he views the sons of Feanor. But not a bright politician, particularly how he never listens to his much wiser wife (and he's supposed to be wise with her wisdom).

Does Tolkien intend some subtle humor with this marriage, which is the only one we see repeatedly in The Sil? Every other ruler is 1) male and 2) has no visible wife, even if they have children somehow, so does this royal wedding count as Tolkien's only outlet for observations on marriage? I ask, because in a superficial, fairy-tale way, Melian should say solemn, wise things and Thingol should solemnly agree, but instead they seem to bicker, or like married people, we see them avoid bickering because they can see the usual patterns come up. I can almost see Melian letting her hair down with Galadriel and saying, "Of course I told Thingol what would happen, I always tell him what will happen, but he never listens, and I'm tired of fighting when it does no good." Maybe. Or maybe their marriage is defined not by realistic human terms but by Fate, and Thingol is fated not to listen to his Cassandra, as Sador astutely calls her.

**Keeping the Girdle laced up tight: the shadow of the house of Feanor? Or, considering the personalities of Thingol and Melian, inevitable?
What surprises me a little in the result of this is that Thingol is willing to forgive the house of Fingolfin, because he never seems very forgiving. It's one of his better moments. As for the Girdle, I wonder how psychological it is and if it's a sort of trap. Once you have a magic fence around your kingdom, do you ever feel connected to the outside world again, or make more and more decisions to isolate yourself? I'm not sure if this is the shadow of Feanor, or more likely inevitable, as you suggest.

Yet, when the day is done "they spoke no more of this matter." Wait? What? Is it the time to 'no longer speak' of these things - ummm, like 'looming destruction'? What the heck is going on here?
My feelings exactly. It seems like she could say, "Thingol, the house is on fire. Call the fire department," and he would reply stubbornly, "After I'm done watching football, honey," and they speak no more of it, and we readers are on the sidelines saying, "What?!" Or are these Elves and Ainur too lofty to argue? Or so lofty that they're incomprehensible to us? Or when you're immortal, do you not have a sense of urgency the way us mortals do? Hard to fathom. But I want to smack both of them and tell them to wise up.

**Banning the melodic Quenya tongue and branding it criminal in Doriath: an act of pique, or something with deeper, divisive political implications?
I think it's both an act of pique and a more xenophobic reaction, and it plays into Morgoth's hands of dividing his enemies. Not that it ultimately sunders Sindar from Noldor, but there is something disturbing about it, especially because it's not just a ban, but because it's such a deep moral condemnation: "And all such as use it shall be held slayers of kin and betrayers of kin unrepentant." Wow. You're saying the whole Noldor race is so full of sin that if they speak their native language, you should shun them as sinners? I can see banning a language as something of particular importance to Tolkien the linguist, and he probably only saw it as that. The Noldor seem to shrug off the ban and adapt to it readily, and sort of have the last laugh by keeping Quenya as their language of lore, the way Latin has a high status as a language because it's only used by very well-educated people. But still I stumble on the whole racial context. It feels like "ethnic cleansing" to me and repulsive.

Finrod Gets a Bad Feeling
Who doesn't get a bad feeling in this chapter?! Smile At least he listens to his. I'm not sure there's any source to foresight. Tolkien's characters just seem to have it. Or within his world, maybe it comes as inspirations from Lorien most of the time, possibly from other Valar at other times. What I wonder is why Finrod is the only Noldorin ruler to have this foresight. He specifically sees himself stuck with an oath of his own that will kill him, but there's the larger picture of "Nor should anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit." Ouch. Even with this secret kingdom, he sees it ending. But the other rulers are blissfully unaware of dark fates and feel that their realms will endure forever.


CuriousG
Valinor


May 27 2013, 7:01pm

Post #7 of 45 (379 views)
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Prophecies and people [In reply to] Can't Post

Ulmo has a very interesting take on his own position. He helps (i.e., he is not without meddling,) but he seems to know better boundaries than most. He obviously knows who will eventually warn Turgon, but he knows better than to him his name or where he will come from. But he is wise enough to pass along the fellow's measurements so that an appropriate sword and arms will fit the lad!
Yet another obscure, delphic prophecy! It's almost comical. Why doesn't Ulmo just say, "A Man named Tuor will visit you in the future with my blessing and a warning from me to leave Gondolin. And he'll marry your daughter, and their son will convince the Valar to rescue Beleriand from Morgoth." Okay, that's a lot to say, but why not be upfront about it, because as you point out, Ulmo sees the future in such detail that he knows Tuor's pants size. Does he also specify that the armor should be orange and white because those are Tuor's favorite colors, and he likes his shoes to have tassels and no laces? But the nature of prophecy is that you're only supposed to half-understand it, I suppose. (But Ulmo could have shown Turgon the Table of Contents, at least, the way Tolkien showed us readers, so he'd know when his number was up.)

First of all, Galadriel in this scene with Melian is fairly awesome. To stand eye to eye with a Maia and not divulge your secrets -- I suspect one must have a will like few others. So, fair play to you, Galadriel.
I agree with much agreement. There's a lot of character in Galadriel's curt "Maybe, but not of me." She, like noble brother Finrod, is shielding the other Noldor from blame out of loyalty plus a certain amount of personal guilt.

Arda Reconstructed points out that original drafts said that Galadriel dwelt "with Melian, and was dear to her" and in another place that there was great love between them. What I really like about the narrative is how close their relationship appears to us even without being told the other bits about how close they are, almost like mother and daughter. And another cool thing is that while Melian initially presses Galadriel to spill the beans, and bluntly tells her that she can see she's still concealing important information, she doesn't press her after that. It shows Melian has a lot of respect for the G-girl and it reflects well on both of them.

But it also gives us this comment from Melian that's a bit of an eye-roll for me. Who does she think she's kidding? "But I see evil there, which Thingol should learn for his guidance." As if he ever listens to her!

I may be taking this too far, but even the Sindarin name for Gondolin (Hidden Rock) seems like a slur compared to Ondolinde (Rock of the Music of Water).
One more note on this: I find it odd that the Sindar are the musically and vocally gifted singers, yet Quenya is described as the more melodic language. Hisilome v. Hithlum is one example, as is Ondolinde and Gondolin...

Great observation, Telain! I ordinarily find both languages to be appealing, but you're right, Quenya comes across as more poetic and musical in comparison, which reflects the comparative sophistication of the two races.


CuriousG
Valinor


May 27 2013, 7:10pm

Post #8 of 45 (381 views)
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Disappearing Elves [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess Beleriand is thinly populated, and perhaps people can slip off a bit more easily. But it seems odd that this doesn't alarm the other Elvish princes more, elf-snatching being a classic Morgothian trick.
I always wonder exactly the same thing. Turgon disappears with 1/3 of Fingolfin's people and even more Sindar, and the reaction from everyone is...? Well, how do they react? Does he leave a note behind: "Bye, Dad, off to my secret kingdom. Hold my mail for me," and Fingolfin reacts with, "Okay, sounds good." Shouldn't there be great consternation and alarm? And does it seem plausible that every single person in Nevrast went along with the plan? The Valar couldn't convince all the Elves to go to Aman, so how could Turgon be so 100% persuasive? Not that it's a story flaw, but it always leaves me with questions.

What is Galadriel's motivation in this final scene?
I like this scene as a purely domestic one, a sister bugging her brother about getting married. "Who's your girlfriend, Finrod, and when do we get to meet her, and when do you two start having kids?" There's very little other household interaction between people in Beleriand, at least that we get to see, and this one starts out fun (but winds up dark, like everything else).


CuriousG
Valinor


May 27 2013, 7:22pm

Post #9 of 45 (381 views)
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Everybody loves Finrod [In reply to] Can't Post

Regarding Gondolin, there was clearly a Plan - involving Tuor and Earendil. I am not quite sure of Nagothrond.
I wonder also if there was much of a plan for Nargothrond, other than "just another refuge." As you point out, Gondolin had the Earendil Plan underlying it, but there doesn't seem anything for Finrod's kingdom. Maybe there didn't need to be, but the two places seem equal in Ulmo's eyes, so I wonder if there wasn't a Big Plan for it too.

Why do you think Ulmo picked Finrod, among other Elves, to live in Nargothrond?
Well, he was the one who was the most reluctant to leave Valinor; and also the one who gets along best with Dwarves, and (in the future) with Men.

Good observation. Finrod stands out as special among all these special people in his ability to get along with others and do the right thing. He also befriends Cirdan and helps him rebuild his cities, and later will make his gracious oath to Barahir and nobly fulfill it, plus as you point out he had more sensible reservations about leaving Valinor than the rest of the family. He's also the only one of the family mentioned as being reincarnated and living happily ever after in Valinor.


Brethil
Half-elven


May 28 2013, 12:29am

Post #10 of 45 (364 views)
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Have been looking forward to posting back! [In reply to] Can't Post


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I think there is something deeper than merely defense. Ulmo may be doing his best to prepare Turgon and Finrod for what lies ahead, but also to keep them (at least Turgon in this case) aware that Middle-earth is not their final destination. Also, keeping these strongholds safe for a while may provide the time needed for these peoples to learn a few things -- about themselves, about Middle-earth, and about how not to take help from the Valar (and one's own greatness) for granted. I can't help but think there is a grand design here, and that Nargothrond and Gondolin are almost like 'machines' in a way, both conceived and designed to produce the star that Middle Earth needs: Earandil, the bringer of the hope that will come from the sea? . Gondolin as his heredity, and Nargothrond to shelter Finrod, who oath will some day save Beren

One curious point about Gondolin: not only is it protected by the Sirion and the underground waterways that delved the secret passage, but Gondolin was built on a vale that "...had been a great lake in ancient days." Perhaps that land still has some of Ulmo's power leftover... That's a beautiful point - certain it gives Ulmo insight into the greatness of the spot...I wonder if Ulmo emptied it just for that use?

Ulmo has a very interesting take on his own position. He helps (i.e., he is not without meddling,) but he seems to know better boundaries than most. He obviously knows who will eventually warn Turgon, but he knows better than to him his name or where he will come from. But he is wise enough to pass along the fellow's measurements so that an appropriate sword and arms will fit the lad! Yes, he is all (ooooohh) foreshadowy but then... eminently practical!
First of all, Galadriel in this scene with Melian is fairly awesome. To stand eye to eye with a Maia and not divulge your secrets -- I suspect one must have a will like few others. So, fair play to you, Galadriel. Yes she has quite the backbone...the spirit that drove her to desire her own kingdom!

Thingol is wise enough to see the value in using the Noldor's strength against Morgoth, though he is a bit single-minded and possibly unethical. It is a bit of a tough call, the Noldor have arrived, they've arrayed themselves in all the most dangerous places, and now Thingol and Melian are getting stroppy because they aren't the messengers that they hoped the Noldor would be (and that the Noldor never claimed to be). But then again, the Noldor do have a few things weighing heavily on their conscious. But then some of them never took part in any of that Feanor business and some are very actively trying to make up for very serious mistakes.
It is interesting that Thingol sees no problem with getting "insider information" from Melian, but condemns Finrod for keeping secrets. I think Finrod took a very high ground under such accusation. Finrod and Galadriel have some excellent moments in this chapter.
I find that the ethics of it to rub me a bit the wrong way - sort of having the sons of Feanor around as perhaps Orc fodder is acceptable. I know it might be a tactical decision, and he certainly doesn't have to love the SoF, just strikes me as very opportunistic.

And, I do think that Finrod just "gets" a feeling when he claims his own Oath. I think he realizes the gravity of the larger situation and maybe, just maybe, there was a message from Ulmo in that last sip of water he took while Galadriel asked him the question... I love your point about the water!!!!!!!! I am undecided on the foresight point still...

Finally, this excellent question:Banning the melodic Quenya tongue and branding it criminal in Doriath: an act of pique, or something with deeper, divisive political implications?
Absolutely deep, deep divisive political (cultural!) implications. So often language is used as a marker of what is acceptable and what is not. He is punishing the Noldor for being Noldor and every time one of them slips up, they will know it. He is elevating the Middle-earth Sindaran language over the Quenya spoken in Valinor so that the Noldor will understand just how completely they abused the privilege of being there. He is reminding them that they are exiles. With. every. word. I may be taking this too far, but even the Sindarin name for Gondolin (Hidden Rock) seems like a slur compared to Ondolinde (Rock of the Music of Water).
I see it that way too, as a divisive and rather oppressive step to take. Especially when the Elves seem to need unity, to promote separation and reduce their ability to communicate...odd. And it punishes all of the Noldor equally. Not that I can't understand his anger - I can.

Thank you, Brethil! I see this is going to be another engaging discussion! I hope so Telain, thanks! Sorry my reply is so tardy but after a brutal workweek without break time my posting has suffered!


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


May 28 2013, 12:41am

Post #11 of 45 (359 views)
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Love your Cold War analogies Furuncurunir [In reply to] Can't Post


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The actual fighting has died down with the misleadingly easy repulse of the dragon. But nor is there, nor can there be, any lasting accommodation between the elves and Morgoth. It's a Cold War ish period. Excellently put here.

Secret Royal construction project in the Mountains! (Probably known as "Area-G" to the conspiracy theorist of the time). Disappearances, as Turgon's people slowly vanish into the completed city of Gondolin! I've just been reading All The President's Men, so I had fun imagining The Beleriand Post's investigative reporters Carl Burningstone and Bob Woodelf slowly unravelling the story. I guess Beleriand is thinly populated, and perhaps people can slip off a bit more easily. But it seems odd that this doesn't alarm the other Elvish princes more, elf-snatching being a classic Morgothian trick. That's true - I felt it was odd too. I guess its to make the contrasting literary point about the uniqueness of Tuor coming out of that silent land, maybe to stress his singularity?

"But love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart"...its the recurring elvish vice. The Silmarils, obviously, and also their wish to preserve their second-age holdings in Middle-earth leading to willingness to do a dodgy deal involving Rings of Power. Mmm, good point about ME dodgy deals...I think I see a point in there about how Gondolin isn't meant to last, and that's its purpose is different than just to exist as a dwelling-place: to keep safe Idril and allow her marriage to Tuor.....

Meanwhile, tokens are left by which to recognise a hero in the future, and the King has a pretty daughter. Hmm...now where might that be leading? Bingo!

Thingol's realpolitik:
However, this linguistic rule's another barrier to the re-integration of the Noldor into Middle-earth elvish culture however.
It is, at least in Doriath.

What is Galadriel's motivation in this final scene?
The more distant "mythic" style keeps us a bit further from the action, I can't really see how the Finrod/Galadriel conversation goes. Is Galadriel tentatively offering a marriage alliance (for hard-headed realpolitik reasons - this is Galadriel after all- or for romantic ones)? Or is it just friendly curiosity, or cousinly concern that he ought to get over left-behind Amarie & do his princely duty of getting his house an heir?
I never considered the political angle - always took it as more of family inquiry...do you think she had a match in mind? Interesting idea!


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


May 28 2013, 12:53am

Post #12 of 45 (365 views)
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Thoughts in response Sador [In reply to] Can't Post


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Ulmo has a vested interest in preserving Gondolin: but clearly he can see its end - and thus implying that he forsees the end of Nargothrond as well. Is there a common purpose uniting these two strongholds, for the future and hopes of Middle Earth, deeper than just defense?
Well, he did send Arminas and Gelmir to warn Orodreth. Regarding Gondolin, there was clearly a Plan - involving Tuor and Earendil. I am not quite sure of Nagothrond. Agreed Sador! My instinct says Nargothrond was to preserved Finrod at the ready for service later on...
Trying his best; but trusting an Elf - that's a bit too much even for him. Ulmo seems to function very well when left to his own devices, doesn't he?
You mean, when acting behind the backs of the other Valar? Yes. SmileWinkSmile Haha! That's great Sador!!!!!

"Their swords and their counsels shall have two edges." Despite Melian's words, Thingol is *STILL* not forewarned. Why is Thingol so...for lack of a better word...dense?
What else should he have done? Marched against them? I don't know if anything that extreme...it just seems odd he doesn't taker her more seriously. Especially since he is a bit suspicious to start with in general.
And that Melian simply accepts this statement with the comment above...?
That's one thing I don't quite like in Tolkien's work on the Silmarillion in the early 1950s - he gave Melian all those wise-with-Tolkien's-hindsight lines to declaim. Probably once his view of the Maiar became rather more exalted than when they were mere "fays" or minor spirits, he felt she must have been really wise. So he gave her all these lines, making her sound like a Greek chorus, worse, like a Cassandra who was never heeded - making Thingol look a fool and her a discontented wife (which actually makes her seem less the wise for marrying him in the first place). This is a really great set of points. I know what you mean - and overall indeed makes one question her wisdom in marrying Thingol, and make it seem more like a rather teenage or rebellious (perhaps?) thing to do.

Wait? What? Is it the time to 'no longer speak' of these things - ummm, like 'looming destruction'?
The line you quoted has nothing to say about the sons of Feanor, you know. And she is wrong - as one Silmaril will come, even to Doriath itself, before those battles. I think my surprise was about how casual they both are about the dangers looming ahead.

Banning the melodic Quenya tongue and branding it criminal in Doriath: an act of pique, or something with deeper, divisive political implications?
Just one of the things Tolkien would love!
But wars against language did occur in ancient times; and yes, it is a clear way to separate peoples.
Yes, and as a philologist I think an assault on language would have special meaning to him.


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


May 28 2013, 1:04am

Post #13 of 45 (354 views)
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Some ideas back at you CG! [In reply to] Can't Post


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(Late is the hour...oh wait, Telain cleverly used that line first!) Thanks for the very rich analysis of this chapter, Brethil! You brought out the many different layers going on in the story here, and I'm not sure what layer to start on. Thanks CG!

I call this a "random" chapter because it seems spliced together from two unrelated sources. There's the first chunk about Turgon and Gondolin, but the second chunk isn't about Nargothrond in the same vein and is more about Beleriand politics. But I enjoy it anyway, especially for the character development, which is more abundant here than in many other chapters. I like NoWiz's reference to a Cold War sort of political climate - that works on so many levels here.
A question I have also. I think Ulmo has great foresight (like everyone in this chapter) and can see the ultimate destruction of Beleriand, and out of pity, he wants the Noldor to survive in at least a couple of places. But though these two places of refuge are to endure for centuries, they are supposed to be temporary, in Ulmo's grand scheme. I think he did look at them as temporary, and having the purpose of serving his plan...he seems to be quite the chess player, our Ulmo.

If Ulmo wants a portion of the Noldor population to survive, why not inspire Turgon and Finrod to migrate down south to Gondor or Umbar, way beyond Morgoth's current reach instead of at his front door? And what are the ethics of inspiring just a couple of Noldorin princes to prepare hidden refuges--why not tell them all? Or are only Turgon and Finrod receptive to him? Well, if my theory is possible, I think he has foreseen the blood of Turgon to culminate in Earandil - and for Finrod to lay down his life when needed in saving Beren's life. Kind of ... bypassing ... both of them and their personal futures in a way, for what their actions and their lives can do for Middle Earth as a whole. "But love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea."
Here's a bombshell from Arda Reconstructed about this famous line (which I thoroughly love for the way it encapsulates Tolkien's mythology). It's possibly not from JRR himself, but from Christopher, since it's not a line from any of Tolkien's published notes and drafts. That's a bombshell to me, anyway, since 1) it seems so very JRR, and 2) many of Chris's edits are ho-hum, and this is way beyond ho-hum. That's an awesome point ... it DOES seem very JRRT, and not ho-hum at all.

As for Ulmo having a plan, I often wonder if Tolkien deliberately makes the Valar so infuriatingly uninvolved in Middle-earth that Ulmo shines in comparison by being so sympathetic and sneakily helping these people he knows he's not supposed to help (or not help to this extent). It's like Ulmo can't help himself, he cares so much. Gotta love that guy. Agreed! And I do!


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


May 28 2013, 1:11am

Post #14 of 45 (356 views)
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More Elf circus acts.... [In reply to] Can't Post


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I guess Beleriand is thinly populated, and perhaps people can slip off a bit more easily. But it seems odd that this doesn't alarm the other Elvish princes more, elf-snatching being a classic Morgothian trick. I always wonder exactly the same thing. Turgon disappears with 1/3 of Fingolfin's people and even more Sindar, and the reaction from everyone is...? Well, how do they react? Does he leave a note behind: "Bye, Dad, off to my secret kingdom. Hold my mail for me," and Fingolfin reacts with, "Okay, sounds good." Shouldn't there be great consternation and alarm? And does it seem plausible that every single person in Nevrast went along with the plan? The Valar couldn't convince all the Elves to go to Aman, so how could Turgon be so 100% persuasive? Not that it's a story flaw, but it always leaves me with questions. I didn't think of it quite so much until you guys brought it up...but yes, it is odd. I think a strange device to highlight a point, but hard to see a real-world parallel maybe? Or does it highlight exactly how thinly populated Beleriand was and how poor communication might have been?

What is Galadriel's motivation in this final scene?
I like this scene as a purely domestic one, a sister bugging her brother about getting married. "Who's your girlfriend, Finrod, and when do we get to meet her, and when do you two start having kids?" There's very little other household interaction between people in Beleriand, at least that we get to see, and this one starts out fun (but winds up dark, like everything else). Yes its a nice snapshot into what Elves might just sit around and chat about when they aren't debating making universally coveted jewels or completely upending the known universe.


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

May 28 2013, 1:22am

Post #15 of 45 (369 views)
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Bombshell [In reply to] Can't Post


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"But love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea."
Here's a bombshell from Arda Reconstructed about this famous line (which I thoroughly love for the way it encapsulates Tolkien's mythology). It's possibly not from JRR himself, but from Christopher, since it's not a line from any of Tolkien's published notes and drafts.








I would agree with your characterization of that as a "bombshell". It is definitely one of the more surprising edits that I discovered. The statement in the Grey Annals, from which this part of the chapter is taken, is simply "love it not too well." I find it impossible to believe that if this had been taken from some text not printed in HoMe, Christopher would not have pointed it out. The only possible source that I can find for this expansion is a statement in a replacement text of chapter 15 of the Quenta Noldorinwa (the precursor to the Quenta Silmarillion which was written in 1930 and printed in The Shaping of Middle-earth) in which it states that the people of Gondolin “grew to love that place, the work of their hands, as the Gnomes do, with a great love” (SoMe, 140). This is a good example of the way that Christopher (and Guy Kay) would insert older material into the text.












'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Brethil
Half-elven


May 28 2013, 1:51am

Post #16 of 45 (355 views)
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Excellent point by CG [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
"But love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart; and remember the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea."
Here's a bombshell from Arda Reconstructed about this famous line (which I thoroughly love for the way it encapsulates Tolkien's mythology). It's possibly not from JRR himself, but from Christopher, since it's not a line from any of Tolkien's published notes and drafts.

I would agree with your characterization of that as a "bombshell". It is definitely one of the more surprising edits that I discovered. The statement in the Grey Annals, from which this part of the chapter is taken, is simply "love it not too well." I find it impossible to believe that if this had been taken from some text not printed in HoMe, Christopher would not have pointed it out. The only possible source that I can find for this expansion is a statement in a replacement text of chapter 15 of the Quenta Noldorinwa (the precursor to the Quenta Silmarillion which was written in 1930 and printed in The Shaping of Middle-earth) in which it states that the people of Gondolin “grew to love that place, the work of their hands, as the Gnomes do, with a great love” (SoMe, 140). This is a good example of the way that Christopher (and Guy Kay) would insert older material into the text.

*Very* changed from the two source statements, with a touch of shiny prophecy thrown in. Do you think it can be seen as an homage by CT to JRRT's long-standing ideal of the story of Earandil?

















Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

May 28 2013, 2:29am

Post #17 of 45 (347 views)
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Not really [In reply to] Can't Post

My best guess is that this was a contribution by Guy Kay. He has certainly shown much more of a talent for prose fiction in the ensuing years than Christopher. But we likely will never know.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Brethil
Half-elven


May 28 2013, 2:41am

Post #18 of 45 (346 views)
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I do think your guess is probably right... [In reply to] Can't Post


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My best guess is that this was a contribution by Guy Kay. He has certainly shown much more of a talent for prose fiction in the ensuing years than Christopher. But we likely will never know.





I suppose it will remain one of those enigmas!

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


sador
Half-elven


May 28 2013, 3:04am

Post #19 of 45 (345 views)
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And Unfinished Tales, page 32: [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Will Turgon forget what he (Ulmo) spoke to him of old: Remember that the last hope of the Noldor cometh from the Sea?




CuriousG
Valinor


May 28 2013, 3:08am

Post #20 of 45 (345 views)
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It's ironic [In reply to] Can't Post

that this iconic statement may not be JRR's. It is so in the spirit of him, it sure fits.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

May 28 2013, 3:57am

Post #21 of 45 (338 views)
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That part is pure Tolkien [In reply to] Can't Post

The "remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea" comes directly from the Grey Annals with no change. It is just the "love not too well the work of thy hands and the devices of thy heart" that replaces "love it not too well." (The original as written by Tolkien reads "But love it not too well, and remember that the true hope of the Noldor lieth in the West and cometh from the Sea.")

Sorry if that was not clear.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Brethil
Half-elven


May 28 2013, 4:07am

Post #22 of 45 (332 views)
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Hmmm - about that foresight bit....(good question...) [In reply to] Can't Post


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**Banning the melodic Quenya tongue and branding it criminal in Doriath: an act of pique, or something with deeper, divisive political implications?
I think it's both an act of pique and a more xenophobic reaction, and it plays into Morgoth's hands of dividing his enemies. Not that it ultimately sunders Sindar from Noldor, but there is something disturbing about it, especially because it's not just a ban, but because it's such a deep moral condemnation: "And all such as use it shall be held slayers of kin and betrayers of kin unrepentant." Wow. You're saying the whole Noldor race is so full of sin that if they speak their native language, you should shun them as sinners? I can see banning a language as something of particular importance to Tolkien the linguist, and he probably only saw it as that. The Noldor seem to shrug off the ban and adapt to it readily, and sort of have the last laugh by keeping Quenya as their language of lore, the way Latin has a high status as a language because it's only used by very well-educated people. But still I stumble on the whole racial context. It feels like "ethnic cleansing" to me and repulsive.
I agree with all of this, CG, and although I had to think about why it bugged me, I think you summed it up very eloquently.

Finrod Gets a Bad Feeling
Who doesn't get a bad feeling in this chapter?! Smile At least he listens to his. I'm not sure there's any source to foresight. Tolkien's characters just seem to have it. Or within his world, maybe it comes as inspirations from Lorien most of the time, possibly from other Valar at other times. What I wonder is why Finrod is the only Noldorin ruler to have this foresight. He specifically sees himself stuck with an oath of his own that will kill him, but there's the larger picture of "Nor should anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit." Ouch. Even with this secret kingdom, he sees it ending. But the other rulers are blissfully unaware of dark fates and feel that their realms will endure forever. Ouch indeed. Yet 'The Faithful' he remains, and after having this vision of bleakness I wonder how easy that is...going forward, to what? Knowing that all he works for will be lost...but maybe that's a good summary of the cost of Immortality tied to the world: the likelihood that almost all you build will fade, the world around you will never stay the same and mortals that you care for will die. Ooooh, CG, great question: Why is Finrod the only one to get this sight - if its a 'sent' message, to prepare him for what he must do in years to come, with fulfilling the oath to Barahir? OR if it's an internal foresight....hmmm, I get the same feeling, that it would be for him to stand ready for what he will have to do, which involves loss of his safety and his life, to keep his honor.


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


May 28 2013, 10:48am

Post #23 of 45 (349 views)
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Gnomes? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quick query about Vronwe's comment:

Quote
The only possible source that I can find for this expansion is a statement in a replacement text of chapter 15 of the Quenta Noldorinwa (the precursor to the Quenta Silmarillion which was written in 1930 and printed in The Shaping of Middle-earth) in which it states that the people of Gondolin “grew to love that place, the work of their hands, as the Gnomes do, with a great love” (SoMe, 140). This is a good example of the way that Christopher (and Guy Kay) would insert older material into the text.

[my bolding]

Is "Gnomes" effectively "dwarves" - e.g. Tolkien hadn't yet decided on a consistent name for this race when writing this version? Or was he at one point considering a race called Gnomes, distinct from dwarves, but later abandoned/subsumed into his ideas about dwarves? or is this all very unclear?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


sador
Half-elven


May 28 2013, 11:53am

Post #24 of 45 (329 views)
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"Gnomes" was Tolkien's early name for the Noldor [In reply to] Can't Post

"Noldor" (or at first, "Noldoli") was supposed to be their elvish name, while "gnomes" would be, let's say, Men's word.
I don't remember when exactly he abandoned this idea - at the very earliest, well into the 1930s.


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


May 28 2013, 12:26pm

Post #25 of 45 (317 views)
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Gnomes = Noldor. Thanks. Now trying to imagine Elrond as a garden ornament, with wheelbarrow or fishing rod... // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

(This post was edited by noWizardme on May 28 2013, 12:26pm)

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