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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Lilly on Tauriel
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dik-dik
Lorien


May 26 2013, 9:15pm

Post #51 of 121 (485 views)
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Re: [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Few will remember or admit they were wrong and it is unfortunately considered bad form to say "I was right."


Believe me, I would be quite happy to admit I was wrong about my initial impressions of Tauriel, and that she wasn't as bad as I'd thought.

But I see nothing wrong with jumping to conclusions, if that is what you call people saying "I fear she'll become...", "It sounds like they are writing her as..." and such.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


Semper Fi
Rohan

May 26 2013, 9:18pm

Post #52 of 121 (510 views)
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Now that you mentioned a karate movie [In reply to] Can't Post

The interview sounds like Tauriel runs "mercy`s for the weak" school from Karate Kid movies. Laugh

I`m positive that she`ll turn likeable but the character marketing that over-emphasizes "ruthless killer" and "dark alley" kind of a stalker/attacker personality to exclusion of anything else isn`t working any magic on fans judging by reactions. I really don`t understand why they think that she`ll be accepted easier if market as a one-dimensional harda$$ akin to Lurtz (only female version) than someone who is likeable. Being a fighter and being likeable aren`t mutually exclusive. Tolkien world is full of characters who are likeable fighters.

Just how do you make a character named Daughter of Woods (or Forrest) sound like a cartoonish villain? The name itself speaks of deep connection to nature and love of its creatures, in short someone who`s humane. So she would be a humane warrior. Yet none of interviews related to the character revelead anything but attempts to scare the audience. Is there a twist coming our way where she`s going to slay Thorin, Kili and Fili? Can`t imagine such scenario but only that would justify ruthless killer talk, not slaying Azog&co.


In Reply To

Without knowing a ton, this character would seem to fit
a karate movie.



(This post was edited by Semper Fi on May 26 2013, 9:22pm)


dik-dik
Lorien


May 26 2013, 9:37pm

Post #53 of 121 (495 views)
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Concerning the 'feminine energy' that you mention... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I wonder if the addition of a girl fighter (which, as some already said, is rather unoriginal these days) may actually alienate some females from the film. I have a feeling it will be the case for me. I must admit that I am feeling more than a bit miffed that a female character who is considered important enough to have a name and her own storyline, needs to be one who is a good fighter (Galadriel will also be present and active at Dol Guldur, I presume). It implies to me that a woman wouldn't be interesting enough to be included if she wasn't fiery and physically strong, which doesn't make me happy.
It seems to me as if moving away from the old stereotype of damsels in distress and trophy wives, has now reached the opposite extreme.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


dormouse
Half-elven


May 26 2013, 10:09pm

Post #54 of 121 (477 views)
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Yes. The reason I'm still hopeful.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... that there may be some redeeming feature in all this which we just don't know about yet is that it was this very team of writers who wanted to make Arwen into a girl warrior and came down on the side of 'women don't need to take up weapons to be strong' which was a much more original and interesting take on the thing and, to my mind, much more appropriate to Tolkien.

Philippa Boyens talks at some length about this on the EE documentaries - it's not that long ago; surely they can't have forgotten? *crosses fingers*


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 26 2013, 10:15pm

Post #55 of 121 (519 views)
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Why, also, is this made-up character getting so much publicity? [In reply to] Can't Post

There are so many interesting characters that actually DO belong in the story, and we are hearing virtually nothing from them (and seeing very little, apart from the bits we saw in the sneak peak, which of course also had to include this new character).

It is very alarming to think that the filmmakers may be considering giving her any major role in the film. I really, really hope that will not be the case.

This film is called 'The Hobbit', for goodness sake!

As a female, I totally agree with this statement : 'It seems to me as if moving away from the old stereotype of damsels in distress and trophy wives, has now reached the opposite extreme.'


Lio
Lorien


May 27 2013, 12:06am

Post #56 of 121 (431 views)
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Thanks for posting the full version! [In reply to] Can't Post

So apparently Tauriel is something of a hothead? I hope they don't overdo this part of her personality, it has a bit of potential for scenery chewing if not done right.

Interesting that the actress describes herself as a "die-hard Tolkien fan". Surely Tauriel is in good hands? Wink

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 27 2013, 12:42am

Post #57 of 121 (454 views)
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I'm afraid that's exactly what it sounds like :-(( [In reply to] Can't Post

Triumph of the marketing dept over good storytelling.








JWPlatt
Grey Havens


May 27 2013, 1:13am

Post #58 of 121 (459 views)
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The Meaning [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, so this is more than a few women who feel similarly. Are we collectively saying it's more for the (perhaps young) male demographic who are excited to to see girls fighting than for females who don't - all under the guise of abandoning the stereotype damsel? That would be counterproductive to the stated intention, or attraction, of feminine energy.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on May 27 2013, 1:17am)


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


May 27 2013, 1:54am

Post #59 of 121 (425 views)
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I have to second both of you [In reply to] Can't Post

Tauriel sounds like a Mary-Sue character from a terrible fanfiction. I know the films haven't come out yet, but I can't help but give a judgement based on what I've heard so far about Tauriel. She doesn't sound very likeable to me either.


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


May 27 2013, 2:04am

Post #60 of 121 (424 views)
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She reminds me of Arya also [In reply to] Can't Post

And all those books are examples of Mary-Sues. Cassy Clare even plagiarizes. Crazy


totoro
Lorien

May 27 2013, 3:58am

Post #61 of 121 (437 views)
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I don't get it [In reply to] Can't Post

Arwen was a bad-ass without swinging a sword. So was Galadriel. There was Eowyn who came across as tough, but not as tough as the big boys. Now we have Tauriel, one of a handful of females, none of whom was really all that great at swordcraft compared to the great heroes of the story, who looks like she might be able to pull of a Gina Carano (who, BTW, would be able to hand you your butt on a platter if you stepped in the ring with her). It is perfectly acceptable to have a superhuman (i.e., elf) who happens to be female, be able to kick some butt. Does Gina Carano make you fear for your masculinity or femininity? Jeesh.


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


May 27 2013, 7:01am

Post #62 of 121 (404 views)
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Wrong Interpretation [In reply to] Can't Post

It's not that she is a fighting female. If you've read these posts, you should know that. It is a question of the writer's and studio's motivation, and that this character is completely made up - artificially inserted for questionable reasons and effect on the original story. The type has become cliche. Sexist fear is your straw man.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on May 27 2013, 7:02am)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 27 2013, 7:02am

Post #63 of 121 (394 views)
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No... [In reply to] Can't Post

...she makes me fear for the integrity of the story that's ostensibly being told here, which has nothing to do with butt-kicking females or, in fact, butt-kicking beings of any description (not to mention females of any description).

Virtue in this story is of another stripe. It has to do with integrity, loyalty, and courage, commitment. And the introduction of clichée characters of any description weakens it.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on May 27 2013, 7:03am)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 27 2013, 7:11am

Post #64 of 121 (403 views)
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What do women want? [In reply to] Can't Post

(famously, Freud asked).

In this case, we have an excellent, strong, story that doesn't happen to have any females in it. Many females (as well as males) love it, because it's a good story, well-told, with interesting characters.

I, at least, resent a bunch of marketing types trying to manipulate this story to "satisfy demographics" of any kind. Insertion of fighting females for marketing reasons that have nothing to do with the story being told weakens the story and makes all fans of the story resentful. This tale doesn't need any stereotypes, whether they're "damsels" or kick-butt warrior females. It needs to make good use of the characters it has.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on May 27 2013, 7:11am)


lurtz2010
Rohan

May 27 2013, 7:19am

Post #65 of 121 (400 views)
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So would it be better if all the Mirkwood elves were just male background characters? [In reply to] Can't Post

Except for Thranduill, Legolas and two drunks like in the book. Doesn't it make sense to add a female elf character? We need to know more about their culture etc. What would you expect them to do with the elves in the movie?


(This post was edited by lurtz2010 on May 27 2013, 7:20am)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 27 2013, 7:28am

Post #66 of 121 (396 views)
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I don't care whether they're male or female... [In reply to] Can't Post

...so long as they have some sort of integrity and perform the actions required to move the story along. Is she one of the drunks? That would be ok. Is she just another elf in the background? That's ok, too. But inventing a character based on a contemporary stereotype (e.g. kick-butt female) just to satisfy some marketing twerp's notion of demographic expectations destroys the credibility and integrity of the film.








Yngwulff
Gondor


May 27 2013, 7:38am

Post #67 of 121 (373 views)
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PJ's heroine [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ or Fran I dunno, maybe he/she both wanted it. Maybe they didnt knuckle under to the pressure from the studio for a female heroine (show some backbone maybe if they did submit to the corporate heads)? ... I dunno.
Guillermo del Toro refused to compromise on his HP Lovecraft film regarding PG13 vs R rating and it was scrubbed ... he went on to make Pacific Rim instead.

LOTR HAD a heroine in Eowyn and didn't need to morph Arwen into one. During the seige of Dol Guldur as a subplot in the Hobbit, Galadriel could be that heroine, and it would be rightly so and more in line with canon vs some made up non canonical heroine.

But why change the story to suit corporate heads? Put on your big boy Hobbit pants and plant your foots firmly and tell them to begone!!

On a side note ...
I know this is fantasy, but it just irks the heck out of me when they have these 102 pound soaking wet female heroines who kick the crap out of these 6'4" trained killers all day with a tae kwon do kick to the head like in Alias. I am 6'4' and 300 pounds and have to date never met a woman who could whip my tail or take me out with one kick or punch ... just saying ...

Now if you've ever seen the movie The Kingdom (excellent movie!!! BTW) with Jamie Foxx, Chris Cooper, and Jenneifer Gardner there's a fight scene near the end where Jennifer Gardners character gets in a knock down drag out fight with this gigantic Saudi terrorist ... she kills they guy with slight help from one of the guys on her team, but not without getting slammed around and banged up fairly roughly. Realistic and I am 110% OK with that.

Just had to get that off my chest ... sorry


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


dormouse
Half-elven


May 27 2013, 8:28am

Post #68 of 121 (362 views)
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It makes absolute sense to add female elves..... [In reply to] Can't Post

... and not just one. More than one in the background would be fine by me - we've already seen some in Rivendell.

The sticking point is this 'we need to know more about their culture.' I'm fine with that too - providing the elven culture shown in the film is developed from Tolkien's writing and in harmony with it. And some of the concerns/ theories about what Tauriel might be would, if true, be as alien to Middle Earth as an imported character from Power Rangers or Star Trek.

But having said that, I'm still relaxed about it. The film isn't made yet. Decisions can be changed and in any case, we don't know that the ideas being suggested are decisions that Peter Jackson and company have made. I can't believe that a team of writers who do know Tolkien's books and have worked with them for years now would choose to do something so out of keeping. I have more faith in the writing team than a lot of people here do and I'll wait and see what role Tauriel really does play before I decide. I can't judge something I haven't seen.


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 27 2013, 8:37am

Post #69 of 121 (347 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

Unless the elves are hermaphrodites or can reproduce by fission or they all took off with the Entwives ... they kinda gotta be there ....


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Semper Fi
Rohan

May 27 2013, 10:43am

Post #70 of 121 (333 views)
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None of those characters nor Carano are psycho killers [In reply to] Can't Post

Tauriel brouhaha doesn`t stem from being the token tough chick but from being advertised as a killer machine without personality. The actress spoke about the character in two occasions and in both cases emphasized only how absolutely ruthless killer and dark alley predatorish the character was. And if you read comments here and in other places you`ll see that majority of fans don`t think that going berserk in a killing spree is an empowerment to any gender. Simply put, from little informaiton we have the character sounds absolutely unlikable and deranged. Now some of us think that this is just a bad marketing pandering to adolsecent boys, who don`t care for characterisation but only to see a leather-clad hottie in action, and that the character will turn out differently in the movies. I`m in this group. And some of us think this is it, that Tauriel is indeed this repulsive maniac. I`m holding out hope this group is wrong but it`s really strange that someone in The Hobbit marketing department thinks it`s a good idea to make a contorversial character come off as Jason Voorhees and such desxcription would warm up fans to her.


Semper Fi
Rohan

May 27 2013, 10:47am

Post #71 of 121 (339 views)
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It makes sense to add a female, it doesn`t make sense to add a psychotic killer one [In reply to] Can't Post

Or maybe she isn`t psychcotic at all but these interviews certianly make her sound like a good companion to Fredddie, Jason, Michael, Leatherface, Jigsaw. Laugh


Semper Fi
Rohan

May 27 2013, 10:54am

Post #72 of 121 (362 views)
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What girls want from a fighter heroine - going by boxoffice [In reply to] Can't Post

They want Hunger Game (survivalist is thrusted into dealy games she didn`t want to aprticipate in, kills only when she must and without nay joy, is compassionate and caring under tough exterior), Harry Potter (Hermione is just as good fighter as she is a book reader, smart, loyal friend, compassionate, brave,etc), LOTR (all 3 women in the movies are brave and vulnerable at the same time, their strength doesn`t come only from wielding weapons or magic although they can do that too), TDKR (Catwoman is clever and a fighter and also has conscience and chamr and vulnerability), The Avengers (same goes for Natasha).

They don`t want Hanna (genetically engineered super-assassin killer machine teen) or Kick A$$ (pre-teen girl is raised to become super-assassin killer machine).


(This post was edited by Semper Fi on May 27 2013, 11:03am)


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 27 2013, 12:15pm

Post #73 of 121 (325 views)
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Agree totally with this. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...so long as they have some sort of integrity and perform the actions required to move the story along. Is she one of the drunks? That would be ok. Is she just another elf in the background? That's ok, too. But inventing a character based on a contemporary stereotype (e.g. kick-butt female) just to satisfy some marketing twerp's notion of demographic expectations destroys the credibility and integrity of the film.



Elenorflower
Gondor


May 27 2013, 1:07pm

Post #74 of 121 (313 views)
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the only 'fighting' female [In reply to] Can't Post

in LOTR is Eowyn, but as a Shieldmaiden she is part of the warrior culture of Rohan and would have been brought up knowing how to wield a sword. However she is a complex fascinating character, and also is subject to the traditional role of nurse maid,future bride, mother and châtelaine of the castle. she is fascinating because of that double sided role in her society, neither all warrior or all woman but caught between the two, which must have been frustrating.
Now Tauriel seems like such a flat and modern pc construction in comparison. she seems as if she is just a deadly killer, just a warrior, the type we have seen a million times before whether they set the film in ancient Persia or Eragonlandia, or in fairytale legend, its the same cookie cutter Xena babe. Tolkien wrote a wonderful fighting female and he remembered to give her womanly traits as well as making her fearless in battle.


(This post was edited by Elenorflower on May 27 2013, 1:09pm)


Elenorflower
Gondor


May 27 2013, 1:23pm

Post #75 of 121 (323 views)
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I agree with this [In reply to] Can't Post

also I would say that the marketing twerps think that an 'old fashioned' heroine who floats around in nice dresses is going to put girls/women off, because women should, according to them, be seen seen as active and as cool as the boys in a fight. I personally think this is twaddle. I actually like the old fashioned females I see in films, their strength comes from courage and loyalty not by splitting lips and kicking people in the head. Thats why Arwen and Galadriel are so well loved by girls/women, they are dainty velvet clad ladies but have inner strength, Arwens love sustained Aragorn Galadriels power sustaining the fertility of a Whole Kingdom. this is the kind of women other women respond to, and it doesnt hurt if they have lovely floaty frocks too.

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