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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
What cursed Mirkwood's Enchanted River?

thatlldo
Registered User

May 27 2013, 5:09am

Post #1 of 18 (538 views)
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What cursed Mirkwood's Enchanted River? Can't Post

The water is black and seems to make the unwary fall asleep if they bathe in it or drink it. Whose magic is it that? Elves? Spiders? Necromancer?

Also, whose boat are the dwarves using to get across? Must be an elf boat, regardless of who magicked the river?


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 27 2013, 6:17am

Post #2 of 18 (271 views)
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Spiders [In reply to] Can't Post

Emyn-nu-Fuin ‘Mountains-under-Shadow’ or Emyn Duir ‘Mountains Dark’ - The Emyn Duir (Dark Mountains) were a group of high hills in the north-east of the Forest, so called because dense fir-woods grew upon their slopes; but they were not yet of evil name. In later days when the shadow of Sauron spread through Greenwood the Great, and changed its name from Eryn Galen to Taur-nu-Fuin (translated Mirkwood), the Emyn Duir became a haunt of many of his most evil creatures, and were called Emyn-nu-Fuin, the Mountains of Mirkwood.

The Enchanted River - It was a black river in Mirkwood, that flows north from its source in the Mountains of Mirkwood, until it joined the Forest River.

The source of this strange curse is never explained, but it may be connected to the giant spiders that inhabited northern Mirkwood. During the First Age, we're told that the offspring of Ungoliant defiled the waters that flowed out of Ered Gorgoroth, so that those drinking from them would be '...filled with shadows of madness and despair' (Quenta Silmarillion 14, Of Beleriand and its Realms). Though this effect isn't identical to that of the Enchanted River, the connection seems telling, especially as the spiders of Mirkwood were also descendants of Ungoliant.


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!

(This post was edited by dernwyn on May 28 2013, 2:08am)


dik-dik
Lorien


May 27 2013, 6:37am

Post #3 of 18 (250 views)
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My bet is on the Elves. [In reply to] Can't Post

Because it's not poisonous like the waters of Imlad Morgul, just enchanted, and the dreams it induces are pleasant and feature Elvenfolk, and also because it has exactly the same name as the enchanted river with 'sweet waters' in Doriath. I find it hard to believe that Thingol would suffer a river enchanted by the enemy's servants to flow through his realm (and allow Lúthien to dance beside it), and that Thranduil would give such a name to a river enchanted by someone evil.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 27 2013, 7:45am

Post #4 of 18 (237 views)
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Oops [In reply to] Can't Post

Didint realize the paste took ... 8 times LOL
Maybe a MOD can delete the extra one LOL sorry...

Why would the elves wish to pollute thier river so? As a defense maybe, but the entire woods were once pure and later corrupted by Sauron via the spiders , why not the river too?


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


PhantomS
Rohan


May 27 2013, 4:58pm

Post #5 of 18 (210 views)
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Greenpeace Green-Elves [In reply to] Can't Post

The Elves don't inhabit the entire forest like the Elves of Lothlorien do with theirs, but they have the eastern corner nearer to the Forest River facing Erebor and Dale. They are at the mercy of the spiders as well, and as long as Dol Guldur is active they can't push out the spiders. The river seems to be polluted by the spiders alone rather than Sauron, who lets them darken that part of the forest in any way they want. The Elves do not cohabit with the Spiders.

After Sauron's fall it was then that Celeborn managed to unite Greenwood with Lothlorien and he presumably moved his people into southern Mirkwood. Lothlorien is the bigger community of the two settlements, so that was when Elves would finally live in the woods ,although Woodmen and the Boernings also live in between the forests.


CuriousG
Valinor


May 27 2013, 7:30pm

Post #6 of 18 (197 views)
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Agree on the Elves [In reply to] Can't Post

for the reasons you give, especially the content of the dreams. I don't think an evil spell would conjure up pleasant Elf dreams. And I think the boat was theirs too.


PattyJB
Rivendell


May 27 2013, 7:36pm

Post #7 of 18 (216 views)
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Encyclopedia of Arda [In reply to] Can't Post

Yngwulff's info is from The Encyclopedia of Arda, if you would like to see the entire entry:

http://www.glyphweb.com/.../enchantedriver.html



Brethil
Half-elven


May 28 2013, 1:17am

Post #8 of 18 (185 views)
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Fun and interesting question! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
for the reasons you give, especially the content of the dreams. I don't think an evil spell would conjure up pleasant Elf dreams. And I think the boat was theirs too.




I hadn't really thought about the boat...it seems so decrepit, its hard to picture it as an Elven thing. I feel like maybe its a leftover from some other explorer who wandered into Mirkwood...

Dream wise I tend to think it was elf-defense, because while it incapacitates intruders the dreams are good (great, if you are Bombur!)

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 28 2013, 2:10am

Post #9 of 18 (165 views)
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Fixed now. [In reply to] Can't Post

And when you copy-and-paste from another source, it's always nice to give the source credit! Smile

In this case, it was the Encyclopedia of Arda.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






(This post was edited by dernwyn on May 28 2013, 2:12am)


dik-dik
Lorien


May 29 2013, 3:43pm

Post #10 of 18 (149 views)
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And also because the dreams that Bilbo and Bombur have are almost identical. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Dream wise I tend to think it was elf-defense, because while it incapacitates intruders the dreams are good (great, if you are Bombur!)


After he enters the clearing with the Elf-feast, Bilbo magically falls asleep and apparently dreams of the same things as Bombur. That suggests the same type of spell used at the feast and in the stream.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


Brethil
Half-elven


May 29 2013, 4:19pm

Post #11 of 18 (135 views)
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Good point DikDik... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Dream wise I tend to think it was elf-defense, because while it incapacitates intruders the dreams are good (great, if you are Bombur!)


After he enters the clearing with the Elf-feast, Bilbo magically falls asleep and apparently dreams of the same things as Bombur. That suggests the same type of spell used at the feast and in the stream.




... its things particularly close to both their hearts as well; but overall the pleasure of food in the dream state would be universal to anyone affected. I agree!

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


dik-dik
Lorien


May 29 2013, 9:37pm

Post #12 of 18 (124 views)
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heh... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
... its things particularly close to both their hearts as well; but overall the pleasure of food in the dream state would be universal to anyone affected. I agree!


... Makes me seriously wonder what Thorin's spell-dream was about! I wish we had been told in the book. Smile

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


Brethil
Half-elven


May 29 2013, 9:48pm

Post #13 of 18 (127 views)
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Thorin's Dream [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
... its things particularly close to both their hearts as well; but overall the pleasure of food in the dream state would be universal to anyone affected. I agree!

... Makes me seriously wonder what Thorin's spell-dream was about! I wish we had been told in the book. Smile




A very perilous question to ask there DikDik. (in the sense of 'ridiculous girls who will get this thread locked' Evil). I will refrain from dashing down that particularly sweet rabbit hole however...Wink

Whatever it was I am guessing it would involve the "cleaned up and redecorated" Erebor, if one dreams of things close to the heart!

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


elaen32
Gondor


May 29 2013, 10:31pm

Post #14 of 18 (128 views)
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Ridiculous? Sez who? [In reply to] Can't Post

I imagine that Thorin dreamed of slaying Smaug singlehandedly, regaining Erebor as its king, issuing edicts all day and making Thranduil eat humble pie ( I wonder what the "humble" part of humble pie consists of?Crazy)

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 30 2013, 5:55am

Post #15 of 18 (104 views)
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pie [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
( I wonder what the "humble" part of humble pie consists of?Crazy)



the kidneys


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Na Vedui
Rohan


May 30 2013, 4:05pm

Post #16 of 18 (95 views)
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The importance of food [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe the shared food-dreams are just a result of the fact that both Bombur and Bilbo are seriously hungry at the point when they dream, not to mention worried about whether they will get hold of any more food in time to stop them starving to death.


Brethil
Half-elven


May 31 2013, 3:16am

Post #17 of 18 (93 views)
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We lack a third dream... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Maybe the shared food-dreams are just a result of the fact that both Bombur and Bilbo are seriously hungry at the point when they dream, not to mention worried about whether they will get hold of any more food in time to stop them starving to death.




True: so the dream magic could be either 1) food (empirically) or 2) the thing dearest to their heart at that time. As our two contestants are Bombur and Bilbo, whom we both know to be rather food-centric, its a stalemate without another's dreams (as DiKDik points out, potentially Thorin's) who could possibly have other, larger concerns closer to heart. One of those conundrums! Wink

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Jay236
The Shire

Jun 4 2013, 8:08pm

Post #18 of 18 (75 views)
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Cursed river-ungoliant or her offspring [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it's ungoliant or her offspring, definetly.

 
 

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