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A Middle English Vocabulary Challenge -- Fall of Arthur Edition
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SirDennisC
Half-elven


May 26 2013, 4:18am

Post #1 of 43 (492 views)
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A Middle English Vocabulary Challenge -- Fall of Arthur Edition Can't Post

The Green Knight's lady tempts Sir Gawain

Greetings and welcome to another installment of A Middle English Vocabulary Challenge (MEVC). While we're waiting for our friends to obtain and read Tolkien's The Fall of Arthur, I thought we might have a little fun.

As some of you surely have noticed, Sir Gawain features prominently in Tolkien's freshly published poem. The very first line reads: "How Arthur and Gawain went to war and rode into the East." As well, many of you know that our little game is based on in part Tolkien's glossary for Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Coincidence? (The other part on which our game is based, and from whence this thread get's its title, is one of his earliest published works.)

Let's get this party started, yo:

Our word game is based on a list of ten words drawn from two of J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle English glossaries:

A) A Middle English Vocabulary, by J.R.R. Tolkien, as published in Sisam, Kenneth, ed. Fourteenth Century Verse & Prose, London: Oxford University Press, 1955; and

B) The Glossary published in Tolkien & Gordon ed. Sir Gawain & The Green Knight, London: Oxford University Press, 1963.

Note: publication dates are of my copies; yours may be as old as 1922 and 1925 respectively.

The Rules, such as they are:

This is a game of guessing, reasoned or otherwise. It is well and good to inject a bit of levity into your posts, but be careful. For instance, mentioning Thorin's hair is frowned upon.

We ask those who have access to the glossaries to wait until after they've made their guesses to look up the words. Looking up the words in any other Middle English glossaries, or using Google, etc. is akin to mentioning Thorin's hair.*

As always, no answers in subject lines please!

Some advice:

Regarding the characters ■ and ȝ: one can usually be read as "gh," the other as "th." At the end of words one often sounds the same as the letter "z."

If you are using Chrome and would like ■ and ȝ to render correctly in your posts, be sure to change Post Style to "Markup and HTML." (Must be reset every time you edit!) Post Style is found just below the green bar and just above the Icon buttons.

It may pay to hearken to NZ Strider via NEB: "Try reading Middle English aloud while looking at the text. A few words that your eye misses your ear will catch."

Finally, in the explanatory note to A Middle English Vocabulary, Tolkien himself said: "A good working knowledge of Middle English depends less on the possession of an abstruse vocabulary than on the ordinary machinery of expression..."

Now to the Challenge:

For each of the following words, please state its definition and/or an equivalent contemporary word as you deem appropriate.

1. logede
2. ■enkke
3. nygromansye
4. ȝalownesse
5. haldynge
6. maȝtyly
7. tauȝten
8. traw■e
9. comlyng
10. aluisch

Answers to follow later in the week.

* Just Kidding! geez.


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on May 26 2013, 4:26am)


SirDennisC
Half-elven


May 26 2013, 4:49am

Post #2 of 43 (226 views)
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True story [In reply to] Can't Post

In the Winchester Manuscript of Le Morte Darthur there are a number of "eyeskip errors," scribal errors resulting in omission of text from one manuscript to the next. While not an eyeskip error per se -- the definition is a bit more technical for a true eyeskip error -- my eye did skip part of the Tolkien quote in the lead post... here is the entire quote:

"A good working knowledge of Middle English depends less on the possession of an abstruse vocabulary than on familiarity with the ordinary machinery of expression..."

Also, while we're at it, please ignore the superfluous apostrophe in this line (here corrected):

"(The other part on which our game is based, and from whence this thread gets its title, is one of his earliest published works.)"

Thanks Evil


(This post was edited by SirDennisC on May 26 2013, 4:51am)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 26 2013, 11:10am

Post #3 of 43 (187 views)
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reversal order? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
hi sir dennis : ) thanks so much for doing this.

looking at your sentence...

"Regarding the characters ■ and ȝ -- one can usually be read as "gh," the other as "th." "

while factually true, would not a better order be...

Regarding the characters ■ and ȝ -- one can usually be read as "th," the other as "gh." ? (because ■ = "th" and ȝ = "gh.")


thought the order might be confusing for some folks.


cheers, and thanks again for doing this.


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on May 26 2013, 11:18am)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 26 2013, 11:17am

Post #4 of 43 (199 views)
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maciliel-answers [In reply to] Can't Post

 

1. logede -- longed

2. ■enkke -- thank

3. nygromansye -- necromancy

4. ȝalownesse -- shallowness or yellowness

5. haldynge -- halting

6. maȝtyly -- mightily

7. tauȝten -- taught / thought

8. traw■e -- throth / trough

9. comlyng -- comely

10. aluisch -- aloof



cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on May 26 2013, 11:18am)


Brethil
Half-elven


May 26 2013, 12:22pm

Post #5 of 43 (192 views)
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Marvelous fun! Thank you SirDennis! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

We ask those who have access to the glossaries to wait until after they've made their guesses to look up the words. Looking up the words in any other Middle English glossaries, or using Google, etc. is akin to mentioning Thorin's hair.* * (phhpbbtttt.: Editorial note: Completely polite raspberry for our Quizmaster.)

Now to the Challenge:

For each of the following words, please state its definition and/or an equivalent contemporary word as you deem appropriate.

1. logede = longed
2. ■enkke = thank
3. nygromansye = necromancy
4. ȝalownesse = sallowness? (?)
5. haldynge = halting
6. maȝtyly = mightily
7. tauȝten = taught 8. traw■e = trough
9. comlyng = comely
10. aluisch = aloof

Answers to follow later in the week.

* Just Kidding! geez. (*See Above.)Smile


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


SirDennisC
Half-elven


May 26 2013, 5:54pm

Post #6 of 43 (186 views)
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Good point [In reply to] Can't Post

I was trying to give a hint without giving it all away. But you are right that it may have caused more confusion the way I did it. Now, thanks to you, that is no longer the case. Cool


SirDennisC
Half-elven


May 26 2013, 7:20pm

Post #7 of 43 (172 views)
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It wouldn't do to have people forgetting themselves [In reply to] Can't Post

there are no IECs in the RR after all. Angelic

Just a heads up to those who have yet to have a go. This list is deliberately more challenging than previous lists, perhaps the most difficult yet. Some of the words do not have similar-sounding modern equivalents and therefore require further translation after striking upon the root words.

Also, if you haven't looked at others' answers or the glossaries, feel free to have another go at the list.

Wink


Brethil
Half-elven


May 26 2013, 7:29pm

Post #8 of 43 (168 views)
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Oh dear...! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
there are no IECs in the RR after all. Angelic
Just a heads up to those who have yet to have a go. This list is deliberately more challenging than previous lists, perhaps the most difficult yet. Some of the words do not have similar-sounding modern equivalents and therefore require further translation after striking upon the root words.

Also, if you haven't looked at others' answers or the glossaries, feel free to have another go at the list.

Wink




I fear that is a hint of how far off I may be...!! CrazySmile might have too look closely again after work tonight...Wink

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


telain
Rohan

May 26 2013, 11:15pm

Post #9 of 43 (186 views)
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oh, why not [In reply to] Can't Post

1. logede - logged
2. ■enkke - think
3. nygromansye - necromancy
4. ȝalownesse - hallowness/hallowed
5. haldynge - holding
6. maȝtyly - mightily
7. tauȝten - taught(en)/tighten
8. traw■e - troth (as in betrothed)
9. comlyng - clearly this is the antecedent to "com link" (communications link)
10. aluisch - sounds like the name Aloysius (Louis)...

A tough one, Sir Dennis!



Brethil
Half-elven


May 27 2013, 12:12am

Post #10 of 43 (156 views)
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Revising a few... [In reply to] Can't Post

#4 : hallowedness? Sacredness?
#5 : Haldynge: holding / property?
#10 : aluisch: allow / accede?

In the spirit of the thing I pondered more... but as my brain is quite fried so I doubt these are any improvement! Wink

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Yngwulff
Gondor


May 27 2013, 2:15am

Post #11 of 43 (151 views)
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#1 [In reply to] Can't Post

thought #1 was lodged from loggia latin/old english


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


Brethil
Half-elven


May 28 2013, 12:11am

Post #12 of 43 (126 views)
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That rings a bell.... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
thought #1 was lodged from loggia latin/old english




I can't find any of my books (still looking) but that sounds familiar Yngwulff.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


SirDennisC
Half-elven


May 28 2013, 8:39pm

Post #13 of 43 (134 views)
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Yes, tough but thanks for playing [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm beginning to wonder if it is too tough, or not very interesting. It couldn't be the Thorin joke...Crazy


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 28 2013, 9:08pm

Post #14 of 43 (117 views)
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possibilities [In reply to] Can't Post

 
1. the holiday
2. you. besmirched. the. majestic. hair
3. mandos said something


cheers --


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


elaen32
Gondor


May 28 2013, 9:08pm

Post #15 of 43 (118 views)
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Do you have a mediocrity bench SirD? [In reply to] Can't Post

If so, I think it has my name on it, but here goes-
1) ? Lodged
2) Thank (looks a bit Finnish with the double k)
3) Necromancy
4) ? Callowness as in youthful inexperience or Hallowness as in Holiness
5) Holding (would this be as in a secure location like the Hold in Harrowdale?)
6) Mightily
7) Tighten?
8) Troth
9) Comely
10) ????Wish???

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


CuriousG
Valinor


May 29 2013, 12:24am

Post #16 of 43 (105 views)
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I admit it's too tough for me to try. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Brethil
Half-elven


May 29 2013, 12:29am

Post #17 of 43 (102 views)
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It's definitely tough... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'm beginning to wonder if it is too tough, or not very interesting. It couldn't be the Thorin joke...Crazy




...but very interesting! (The Vin Diesel Edition of MEVC's?) I have a feeling when the answers are posted many of us will be palm-planting... I know I will be for certain.
(I think you in the clear about the Thorin joke, as the only raspberry you got was from me. Wink )

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on May 29 2013, 12:30am)


telain
Rohan

May 29 2013, 1:08am

Post #18 of 43 (107 views)
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You know not what you do... [In reply to] Can't Post

...when you invoke the name Oakenshield.

Which in Middle English is spelt "Ooguenscheyelde" or "Smith", I forget which.

I think this one is hard because not many of them are sound-out-able. In looking at a few of them, I might have gone a different way. Or not.

Definitely interesting, though, so please do keep them coming!


CuriousG
Valinor


May 29 2013, 1:30am

Post #19 of 43 (94 views)
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ROFL! "Oakenshield... Which in Middle English is spelt "Ooguenscheyelde" or "Smith", I forget which. "// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


SirDennisC
Half-elven


May 29 2013, 1:46am

Post #20 of 43 (111 views)
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Palm-planting you say? [In reply to] Can't Post

mmm though I'm rather anxious to begin discussing the words, I'll give your hand another day to rest before revealing the answers. Angelic


SirDennisC
Half-elven


May 29 2013, 2:06am

Post #21 of 43 (110 views)
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Ooguenscheyelde. Instant classic. [In reply to] Can't Post

Telain may have invented a fun game: rewrite your favourite Tolkien quote in Middle or Old English.

By the way, as not to be mistaken for a hard quiz mistress (unlike some), if you can enunciate "superfluous apostrophe" clearly five times, I'll grant equivalence in place of taking the MEVC.


dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 29 2013, 2:41am

Post #22 of 43 (106 views)
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Another one! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks, Sir D, let's see what I can make of these! Laugh

1. logede - Lodged (as in, stayed at a place)

2. ■enkke - Think

3. nygromansye - Necromancy

4. ȝalownesse - Hollowness, or Hallowedness; I'll go with the latter

5. haldynge - Holding

6. maȝtyly - Mightily

7. tauȝten - Tighten

8. traw■e - Truth

9. comlyng - Compelling?

10. aluisch - Always


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






dernwyn
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 29 2013, 2:50am

Post #23 of 43 (101 views)
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Thorin Smith? [In reply to] Can't Post

Considering the character's erstwhile occupation, that's not far off!

I wonder what would happen if one used "Ooguenscheyelde" on the Hobbit Movie board...hmmm...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I desired dragons with a profound desire"






telain
Rohan

May 29 2013, 11:45am

Post #24 of 43 (96 views)
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I wish I could take credit for the "Smith" association... [In reply to] Can't Post

...unless my sub-conscious knows something I don't...Wink


telain
Rohan

May 29 2013, 11:47am

Post #25 of 43 (105 views)
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suflerpulous fapostrophe, no problem!// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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