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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
who are your favorite tertiary characters?
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Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 23 2013, 4:45pm

Post #51 of 68 (181 views)
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dislikes [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i really dislike/hate how wolves are portrayed as evil animals in folklore and a lot of stories. it's absurd.

narnia, tolkien... others.

humans seem to have a particular problem with wolves, and i'm stymied to understand it. humans don't seem to admire the wolf the way they admire the lion.

wolves are wild animals, yes, but they're beautiful, sensitive creatures with complex social structures and a lot of familial affection and loyalty.

i preferred jackson's wargs of lotr, as they didn't look like any particular creature (something prehistoric, perhaps). the wargs of auj look more wolfish, and that's rather sad. wolves belong in the ecosystem, they were eradicated from the continental u.s. at one point (the entire freaking, huge, country, for crying out loud!). now they've barely made a comeback and state legislatures are hell bent on killing every last one and stripping them of their endangered status.


...oooops.... i sort of stumbled onto my soapbox. that happens, sometimes.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


CuriousG
Valinor


May 23 2013, 5:49pm

Post #52 of 68 (166 views)
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Yes, I was struck by that too. Great point, Aragalen. Intriguing to think so. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Valinor


May 23 2013, 6:10pm

Post #53 of 68 (169 views)
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The wolf dichotomy [In reply to] Can't Post

I share all your feelings about how noble and worthy wolves are wont to be, Mac. And I know contemporary accounts say wolves never eat people. BUT! European folk tales abound with the danger of wolves killing people, and I don't think they made that stuff up. Lions were exotic and faraway. Wolves were a scary menace in the forest surrounding your village. I think people had a legitimate fear of wolves when it was hard to fight against them, so it's understandable that they're ravenous enemies in stories.

So for me, at least, I don't object to their traditional depiction, though it doesn't make sense for anything written in the modern age where they are an endangered and non-dangerous species. I was hiking in Arizona once and encountered some people on the trail walking with their pet wolf. It was big, but very afraid of me, and they explained that wolves are terrified of humans because they're smart and know who kills them off.

Wolves can still be nasty to other animals. I watched a nature special in Yellowstone Park (I think) where a rival and larger wolf pack moved into a territory and without a fight drove off the smaller pack, then camped out over their breeding burrows where a bunch of young wolf pups were hiding. They didn't bother digging in to kill them, just waited until they starved to death and then left again, fighting a sort of war by infanticide. That was cruel. (Yes, I know nature is a savage place.)

My other wolf story is about a partially blind wolf who was driven off--nearly killed--by her pack because she wasn't much use in a hunt, and she nearly starved on her own. Wolves aren't into welfare for the disabled, it seems.

None of this is to argue with you, though I can hear a certain growling over the internet (kidding!). I think they're complex animals that deserve the fierce attributes people have given to them. I also think they're a vital part of the ecosystem, are not evil and shouldn't be killed off, and are intelligent creatures that should be protected.


Darkstone
Immortal


May 23 2013, 6:58pm

Post #54 of 68 (172 views)
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Bregalad [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm a modern day Ent myself, and just as hasty on nasty polluters.

Also Gildor. He's the Tolkien Elf I most took to, really epitomizing what an Elf was to me: wise, funny, warm. mysterious. I wish he had appeared more frequently in the story, especially in place of some of the aging deadwood in Rivendell.

And of course Rosie, as the saucy, caring, affectionate, earthy girl who waits behind. I wish she had appeared earlier, so we could have gotten that sense of her actually waiting, instead of Tolkien going “Oh, by the way, now that I think of it some nine-hundred-odd pages later, did you know that Sam had a girlfriend?”

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Brethil
Half-elven


May 23 2013, 7:58pm

Post #55 of 68 (158 views)
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Soapboxes allowed... ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a worthy subject.

I think the fears go far back to early agricultural days, when wolf predation on human 'kept' stock had far greater impact on individual communities than it would ever have in modern times.

Recently saw how the breeding and release programs have restored them to Yellowstone. In short we being the most voracious predator in the ecosystem perhaps resent some competition...Wink

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 23 2013, 8:36pm

Post #56 of 68 (155 views)
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To be fair, Tolkien does make a distinction.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Prof. Tolkien does distinguish between natural wolves and Wargs and Werewolves. Nowhere does he indicate that normal wolves are evil.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 23 2013, 8:37pm

Post #57 of 68 (153 views)
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yes [In reply to] Can't Post

 
yes, i certainly do realize that... but (to me) it just plays into the old "wolves are evil" mentality. alas.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


malickfan
Gondor


May 23 2013, 9:26pm

Post #58 of 68 (156 views)
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I have wondered about the fox... [In reply to] Can't Post

..considering the hobbits are compared to rabbits at points, perhaps the fox (rabbits natural predator) was some sort of symbol? The fact that he looks at them oddly and passes on-Tolkien would have left such a prominent jump in perspective for a reason after all...

‘As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said ‘All is now ready.’

Perhaps the most fascinating Individual in Middle Earth



Brethil
Half-elven


May 23 2013, 9:29pm

Post #59 of 68 (150 views)
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Yes that internal 'snapshot' of the fox [In reply to] Can't Post

is why it has always interested me so much, both as what he symbolizes and what his perspective means.

Hmmm - symposium topic? Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


malickfan
Gondor


May 23 2013, 9:34pm

Post #60 of 68 (148 views)
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Yep, that's one more for the list... [In reply to] Can't Post

 

‘As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said ‘All is now ready.’

Perhaps the most fascinating Individual in Middle Earth



Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 24 2013, 9:43pm

Post #61 of 68 (130 views)
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love your elaborations... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
love your elaborations... thanks for expanding, aragalen....

i like the idea of old man willow being somehow a central part of the old forest.

i think of trees with dark or darkening hearts like edain who have been through so much ordeal and seen so much strife (forests felled, all the upheaval of the wars, including the war of wrath) as spirits who are wounded and have lost hope in the idea of many different races inhabiting arda in harmony. retreating, drawing themselves into a circle, like muskoxen.

i'm still curious as to the watcher in the water on your list (meaning, why it's a favorite). myself, i'm terribly intrigued by the watcher... so ominous, so h. p. lovecraft... but it's not my favorite... but it would rank up there if i were to make a list of the most terrifying terrors of middle-earth.


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 24 2013, 9:50pm

Post #62 of 68 (131 views)
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yes [In reply to] Can't Post

 
gilraen had such a tough shake. not much time with her beloved, and not a lot of time with her son. not living to see the land or the realm renewed. dying in uncertainty. question... why would she not have been able to tell aragorn about his father, if he was protected in rivendell? did they want to wait for him to grow up, to help ensure the secrecy?

when i next read rotk, i will think of how ioreth amuses you. : ) perhaps you have an affinity for her because you're colleagues in the healing profession.

i'm also curious about imrahil.


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 24 2013, 9:54pm

Post #63 of 68 (130 views)
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ha! : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i also have that loose impression of lobelia. i love how her flower-name is such a contrast with her personality. but so doughty! btw, in your visualizing her with her coal-black, high-necked victorian fashions, picture two hairy hobbit feet peeking out from under her skirt (best not to be obvious when you're looking, or she'll whap you with her umbrella).

it's raining here today, a light, gray, peaceful rain that reminds me of goldberry's washing day.

i also love the idea of mountains and physical places as characters/personalities. caradhras... skin-shivering, in multiple ways. (got a kick out of your phrasing "on the other team.")


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 24 2013, 9:57pm

Post #64 of 68 (130 views)
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lol! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
and i thank you, sincerely, for your hasty attention to nasty polluters. we need more like you.

gildor... elusive but interesting... also.... who are you thinking of in rivendell as deadwood?

agreed... rosie would have more impact as a character if sam mentioned her at the beginning as his object of affection. we wouldn't have even needed a scene with her, necessarily. just his voiced affections.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Na Vedui
Rohan

May 24 2013, 11:25pm

Post #65 of 68 (120 views)
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Lobelia [In reply to] Can't Post

"...picture two hairy hobbit feet peeking out from under her skirt .."

Hee hee!!


FarFromHome
Valinor


May 25 2013, 10:14pm

Post #66 of 68 (127 views)
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Coming in pretty late... [In reply to] Can't Post

Not just me, but the character too! I'd like to put in a word for Elanor, Sam's daughter who is only 3 months old at the end of LotR. She doesn't have much time to make her presence felt, but in a way I think she's even more Sam's "consolation" than Rose is. When Sam gets home from the Havens, the first thing Rose does is sit him down and put Elanor into his lap. A very wise woman, Mistress Rose!

The appendices tell us a bit more about Elanor the Fair, who is the last person to see Sam before he leaves for his own last journey, and who keeps the Red Book and passes it down through the generations. There are also some nice glimpses of her with her father in the unpublished Epilogue when she is in her teens, and we see how close the two of them are and how Elanor seems to understand her father's experiences better than anyone. I'm sure it's a good thing that Tolkien was dissuaded from including the Epilogue, with all its hobbit-talk, along with LotR, but I do love some of the little "behind the scenes" glimpses we get there.

Plus, Elanor seems to have brought a little elvishness into hobbit DNA - "To her, by gift if not by inheritance, a memory of elven-grace had descended", is how the Epilogue puts it - a nice, humble reflection of the "high" tale of how Aragorn and Arwen did the same for the race of Men. I think there are lots of parallels between Aragorn the noble hero and Sam the humble one (I guess it was writing this post, in reply to one of Darkstone's, that made me notice it), and bringing Elvishness into their family tree is one of them. And in Sam's case, that's through Elanor, the golden-haired child who was conceived while he was replanting the Shire using Galadriel's gift.

They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings



CuriousG
Valinor


May 25 2013, 10:21pm

Post #67 of 68 (110 views)
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One thing about the Epilogue [In reply to] Can't Post

is that I always enjoy reading your footer, FFH. The published ending leaves me wholly unsatisfied, whereas that passage from the Epilogue is not only lyrical, it's in keeping with the overall themes and tone of the book, the suggestion that Destiny lies over the Sea for many characters, and will catch up with Sam too.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 26 2013, 12:34am

Post #68 of 68 (157 views)
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wow [In reply to] Can't Post

 
what a wonderful, beautiful post, far from home. : ) you really opened up rosie and elanor for me. really nicely written and explained.

i think jackson did a good job of showing in the film much of what you describe. sam and rosie, outside their home, in the sunlight, elanor in their arms.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

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