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Another one?!

sador
Valinor


May 23 2013, 8:09am


Views: 197
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Another one?! [In reply to] Can't Post

As a matter of fact, I was planning yestreday to begin preparing the discussion of chapter 17 - but there were so many interesting points in your first thread, I never got around to it!

Was anyone else disappointing to learn that the "mist" is composed of clouds issuing forth from Morgoth?
Not quite. I never considered mist to be especially positive in nature. Interesting that you suggest it.

Does/Did it -- to borrow a term from Maciliel -- "squick" you out to think of (Fingolfin et al) breathing in Morgoth-generated mist?
I didn't know the term. But not quite; I remember Iluvatar's words to Ulmo regarding snow and frost - these mists need not be volcanic ash.

What was the appeal of Nevrast for Turgon?

Like for Tuor. One could feel Ulmo close.

What about this landscape would ... inspire... mingling? Was it really the Come-Hither Shore?
It's probably more about Turgon than about the land.

While I understand the military advantage of the higher ground, is there nowhere for Angrod and Aegnor to go if Morgoth should attack?

Well yes, they are with their back against the wall (in a matter of speaking). But somebody had to man this vantage point, and the fires of the Dagor Bragollach were quite unexpected - climbing up the slopes? Who would have thought of it?
I also suspect that normally, there was room enough to manoeuver around, especially for defenders who know the territory well.

I am never very clear about sizes and/or numbers in Tolkien -- how many lived in Brithombar and/or Eglarest? Were these fairly large cities, small towns?
We can't know, of course. But I can't imagine they were very large.

Would Cirdan and Fingon not have guessed this, or just being extra cautious?
They could watch for messengers from the West, like Elendil did.

Surely in the many skirmishes they noticed that water was a problem for the orcs.
Is the water hazard Ulmo's doing and does it apply everywhere?

I think this is actually mentioned somewhere - but at the moment I can only think of Ulmo telling Tuor that the wells of Sirion were poisoned, and his power is dwindling.
And yes, this power of water is perceived elsewhere - in the Ford of Bruinen, or when Aragorn trusts the River of Gondor to keep Boromir's funeral boat untouched.

So, Elves, Edain and Dwarves are not permitted passage, but a dark, defiled river is? Is Melian off her game, or am I misinterpreting something? Does the river become purified by passing though Doriath?

I expected the river was somehow cleansed by passing through Doriath, like the Anduin was not polluted below the inflow of the Imlad Morgul.
Compare this to the Enchanted River of Mirkwood - also dark, but somehow signified the power of the Elves, and supposedly keeps all strangers at bay. There is also the spiders connection.

Thingol was self-proclaimed High-king of Beleriand --why not put all of the Sirion under his power?
It was too great for Melian to encompass. She has got her own territory, which she cultivates and becomes caretaker of. Like Tom Bombadil.

Or am I missing something important that puts T&M's actions and decisions into better light? What say you?
They don't cut a great figure as overlords of all Beleriand. I guess Maedhros was correct in his summing-up of it.

What does this tell you about his character? Why might he be special to Ulmo, as Melian seems to believe?

I don't quite know. I need to compare this to Treebeard's song (explained, but not copied, here).

Does the Gelion ever get jealous that he is Ulmo's second favourite?
Does he know?

In hydrogeographical terms, one might guess that the Narog is then older than the Sirion. Seems odd, eh?
Yeah - but the story as told here reflects the tumults and turmoils of the Battle of the Powers described in the first chapter, rather than what we know of our world's geology.
But you also have the hidden, underground part of Sirion, which also must have taken some erosion, no? It might also depend on what type of rock they have to pass through - well, I don't know; I give up.

Of course, one might suggest that the gorge arose first in Ulmo's thought in the Music, if you so prefer...

The Narog also is associated with the Taur-en-Faroth (Forest of Hunters.) Who were these hunters and what were they hunting?
All those who might approach Nargothrond. There is a beautiful description of it in The Lay of the Children of Hurin, but we learn of them in Of Beren and Luthien.

Well, that does seem to strengthen Maedhros' nobility, doesn't it?
How? By taking a difficult part? Yes, as we've mentioned before.

Do you feel some of Feanor's sons took a slightly softer road than others?
The babies. I wonder at what age Elvish older brother stop pampering and protecting their helpless younger siblings...

Though it was said that the Noldor and SIndar mingled in Nevrast -- was there mingling of the Green-elves of Ossiriand and Amrod and Amras' people?
I strongly doubt it. The Laiquendi seem like very secretive folk.

What is the significance of the Seven Rivers?

Well, the Styx was said to encircle the underworld seven times. And there are also the Sapta Sindhu of Vedic_myth.

These tributaries don't seem to have as much character as the Gelion, so what are they contributing?
Numbers. The land of seven rivers seems a most appropriate place for the Dead who Live Again (the ressurected Beren and Luthien).

What does this landscape look like?
Probably not the same, but here is the Seven river.

Can you see several of these rivers at once, or is the land too flat?
I think these are woodlands, are they not? So no.

And what of the Green-elves of Ossiriand? And the Nandor (Denethor's people)? We've touched on them in a few discussions, but they still seem a mystery. Was it their woodcraft that makes them not only a mystery to us, but to the Noldor as well?
Yes.

sador mentioned that Ossirian might be a "copy" of the original Nandor habitations along the southern (Lebennin) Anduin -- possible?
Thank you for mentioning it. I'll wait and see what folk here have to say...


And thank you for this discussion, telain!



Subject User Time
Silmarillion, Chapter 14: Much, much more on the geography of Beleriand and its Realms telain Send a private message to telain May 22 2013, 11:54pm
    More wonderful Mappy thoughts ;-) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 23 2013, 12:46am
        sibling rivalry and the elements telain Send a private message to telain May 23 2013, 3:13pm
    Another one?! sador Send a private message to sador May 23 2013, 8:09am
        Hydrophobic bad guys noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme May 23 2013, 1:02pm
            yes, sometimes Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 23 2013, 1:49pm
                Zombie-proofing Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 23 2013, 4:52pm
                    as you Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 23 2013, 5:15pm
                        O-M-G !!!! YES!!!! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 23 2013, 8:07pm
                            lmdao! Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 23 2013, 8:15pm
                                A word from our sponsors noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme May 23 2013, 8:50pm
                                    Those of us who aren't Wizards must take steps...! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 23 2013, 8:56pm
                                    i am Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 23 2013, 10:23pm
                                Martha Stewart vs The Zombies CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 23 2013, 9:06pm
                                    "unless hair spray is a zombie repellent--has anyone tried it?"- oddly, no.. noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme May 23 2013, 9:36pm
                                    you know, the funniest thing... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 23 2013, 9:46pm
            as long as it is running water... telain Send a private message to telain May 23 2013, 3:51pm
                bear grylls Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 23 2013, 4:03pm
                Could JRRT have used the folklore to inspire his depiction of Ulmo? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 23 2013, 4:50pm
                    'Ear, what did you say? Brethil's done it again! elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 May 23 2013, 5:37pm
                        The Lobe Wolf...nice catch Elaen! ;-) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 23 2013, 8:02pm
                    I like where that idea is going... telain Send a private message to telain May 24 2013, 6:33pm
                        am i remembering correctly? Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 24 2013, 6:40pm
                            Yes, Frodo shuddered at the touch of the unclean water on his feet// noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme May 24 2013, 7:47pm
                                yes, but... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 24 2013, 7:51pm
                                    Yes, specifically stagnant. "When they came..." noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme May 24 2013, 8:00pm
                                        that would be a good reason to get ebooks telain Send a private message to telain May 24 2013, 9:04pm
                                            Try it & see!// noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme May 24 2013, 9:12pm
                                        yes, but... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 24 2013, 9:12pm
                                            ...and unmappetizingly scant with geographic illustrations. // Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 24 2013, 9:58pm
        best laid schemes of Elves and Men... telain Send a private message to telain May 23 2013, 3:39pm
            Back on topic (tearing ourselves away from zombies...like a dismembered limb) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 24 2013, 12:28am
    apologies to telain Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 23 2013, 10:27pm
        who am I? telain Send a private message to telain May 24 2013, 6:39pm
            ha! : ) Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 24 2013, 6:43pm
                I do love that scene in the films telain Send a private message to telain May 24 2013, 6:47pm
                    omimanwe --- Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 24 2013, 6:54pm
    geography in the context of time Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 24 2013, 12:34pm
        very helpful telain Send a private message to telain May 24 2013, 6:51pm
        Great time scale references Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 24 2013, 7:28pm
    Questions and tidbits CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 24 2013, 11:51pm
        great, thoughtful post, curiousg Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 25 2013, 12:04am
            Messy tapestries CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 25 2013, 12:19am
                well, at least Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 25 2013, 12:42am
            Refuges noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme May 25 2013, 10:00am
                Refuges elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 May 25 2013, 4:18pm
                    Another real-world parallel? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 25 2013, 4:45pm
                        And that makes sense too CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 4 2013, 1:15pm
                            All this agreement Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 4 2013, 8:46pm
                Still getting caught up CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 4 2013, 1:07pm
        More questions and tidbits back: rivers Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 25 2013, 12:08am
            Rivers CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 25 2013, 12:25am
            I enjoy going south... telain Send a private message to telain May 25 2013, 2:32am
        Great imagery point here about the Sun Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 25 2013, 12:43am
            I second that and would add telain Send a private message to telain May 25 2013, 2:43am
                I glimpse something here too Telain Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 25 2013, 6:22am
                    light and subcreation -- and letter #131!!!!! Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 25 2013, 1:38pm
                        The joy of #131! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 25 2013, 3:37pm
                        Beehive buzzing with points CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Jun 4 2013, 1:45pm
                            Hmm - interesting about Narya... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Jun 4 2013, 8:05pm
    Some answers CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 25 2013, 12:13am
        and some misty-headed responses telain Send a private message to telain May 25 2013, 3:08am

 
 
 

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