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Sinister71
Dor-Lomin

May 22 2013, 3:28pm
Post #51 of 102
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Facial expressions are one thing
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and those were fine, its the parts where we seen full body shots that Azog just looked painted over the scene. He wasn't "IN" the scene but merely painted over it or onto it IMO. It was the interaction between the main characters and him that mainly bothered me plus I think he might have looked better given a different color pallet. The whole albino orc thing was awful IMO. Azog stuck out like a sore thumb, no dirt, no blood, just a big white, clean, hulk that to me didn't look very real. Maybe if he were darker and felt more natural it might have worked better for me. The facial expressions were fine and I have no issue with them if he were a character that belonged in the story. Its just everything else with Azog that I hate
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Arannir
Doriath

May 22 2013, 3:30pm
Post #52 of 102
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... okay, I cannot argue against what you saw, it just never looked like that to me :)
“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.
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Elenorflower
Mithlond

May 22 2013, 3:33pm
Post #53 of 102
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without going over and agreeing with all your points, which I do. I would say I dont like Azog because he is a boring cliche baddie. Now when you think about it Tolkiens baddies are NEVER boring cliche baddies, they have many facets and interesting characteristics, they have shades of grey not just black and White. I am thinking of Saruman and Grima, how the characters are not fully evil but nuanced with light and dark, i am thinking of the Haradrim or the Sharkeys men who take over the Shire, or Bill Ferny or Shelob. She is evil but you can pity her in a horrible kind of way when she is injured and wailing in the darkness of her caves. The baddies are fascinating. Now Azog is just a boring cgi thing meant only as a plot device, he swears a lot in the dark speach and seems to want Revenge for Thorin cutting his arm off, yawn. In the book he was actually long dead so they shoehorned in a fake Revenge hunting thing, its just so tired and banal, and thats why I really dislike Azog.
(This post was edited by Elenorflower on May 22 2013, 3:35pm)
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Arannir
Doriath

May 22 2013, 3:39pm
Post #54 of 102
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... when I read some comments of how the CGI in AUJ in general is bad. I saw a few scenes in which I said "that is one moment where CGI is still not fully developed" (warg chase), but "bad" never crossed my mind... especially after seeing how some other movies do not seem to care much about immensly varying CGI quality in one movie (IM3, Oz, even Star Trek). Maybe over the hill expectations one would not have for other movies or those who simply wanted the same style as LotR (which I sometimes believe people overhype now and much would seem hopelessly outdated for a 2012-14 movie). But of course, everyone is entitled to their perceptions and opinions... I am just glad enough people seem to have felt enchanted :)
“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.
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cats16
Gondolin
May 22 2013, 3:44pm
Post #55 of 102
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I wonder if it's noteworthy that, with Azog, we never really saw him in a true daytime/daylight setting. Every time, it was either completely dark with only moonlight, the last gleam of light from the sunset, or at Azanulbizar (but still, I believe we shouldn't count this as normal daylight tone, because there were obviously a lot of grading and tone changes for this flashback. Overly orangish, and filtered.) But with Lurtz (if I remember correctly), we only saw him during the daylight hours. The closest it came to nighttime was the brief scene in the caverns of Isengard, which still had quite a bit of torch light. I know Azog's CGI gives some people problems, but I wonder if some of this comes from the specific lighting used for his scenes. It's usually full of white moonlight, which, of course, gives a much different look than daylight. I'm by no means trying to argue your point, or anything of the sort. I just thought this would be an interesting thing to point out, since the lighting between these two orcs seems very different.
(This post was edited by cats16 on May 22 2013, 3:46pm)
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Ardamírë
Doriath

May 22 2013, 3:45pm
Post #56 of 102
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I was bewildered when I saw people praising the CGI. For the most part I found it to be unconvincing. Some of this I blame on the 5k resolution and HFR, though some of it is doubtless due to using more CGI than actual sets and miniatures like in LOTR. I'm hoping that the EE (which I plan to buy) is released on DVD so that the image quality is actually downgraded a bit. I think this might be a bit more to my liking.
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel
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Elenorflower
Mithlond

May 22 2013, 3:46pm
Post #57 of 102
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I agree about the painted in look of Azog
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I remember seeing the Orc of Fellowship in Moria, the way they crawled up the walls with their big bug eyes, they were scary and creepy, and the Uruk hai captain was really scary in the scene where he is 'born' in front of Saruman, I get the sense of a 'real hunt going on not a fake Azog hunt. when the Uruks in Fellowship hunt the company it feels real because the Actors are real, you get a sense of their weight and power as they Thunder through the trees, it makes me have Goosebumps, its great. Azog never once gave me that sense of reality therefore I was never scared for the Dwarves, so he failed as a villain.
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Ardamírë
Doriath

May 22 2013, 3:47pm
Post #58 of 102
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Gollum, though, wasn't seen in daylight in AUJ and he still looks amazing. If they'd had more time to work on Azog's CGI, I think he'd be more convincing and possibly up to the standards of Gollum. I expect he will be by the time DOS comes out.
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel
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Sinister71
Dor-Lomin

May 22 2013, 3:50pm
Post #59 of 102
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Gollum feels like a part of the scene there is no doubt about him. I feel he is unique in that respect because most all the other CGI characters to me looked fake. I loved the GG for the most part but he was obviously fake. Gollum was the exception to all of those characters and maybe it was because they spent much more time on him than the others.
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Ardamírë
Doriath

May 22 2013, 3:54pm
Post #60 of 102
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As I recall, Gollum's scenes were some of the first filmed, so I'm sure that's why he looks so top-notch.
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel
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Arannir
Doriath

May 22 2013, 3:55pm
Post #61 of 102
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I did not want to say that this perception does not have value, I hope I did not misrepresent that. I guess a lot depends on the general feeling regarding AUJ... if one liked it everything blends easier and more naturally together. If one did not like it, it falls apart much faster.
“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.
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Elessar
Doriath

May 22 2013, 4:06pm
Post #62 of 102
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Its like with anything you're going to have some that like and don't like it. I did and for me that is and always will be my #1 concern. If others want to not feel the same more power to them. As long as they can be respectful I got no issues with their issues. lol Yeah, the Warg chase scene much like in TTT still looks a bit "off" compared to everything else but for me everything really worked in this movie. Some of the best came during the Goblin Town sequence. I loved that part. I agree 110%.
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Ardamírë
Doriath

May 22 2013, 4:07pm
Post #63 of 102
(2227 views)
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Oh, no, I'm not trying to say you did or anything. Just giving my perspective. If you thought it looked great, that's awesome. I unfortunately can't say the same. I'd say it's probably the opposite. If one thinks it blends well and naturally, they probably liked it. But for me, it was falling apart while I was watching it, and that's why I didn't like it. I'm still expecting the EE to fix some of the things I had a problem with, though not all, of course.
"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel
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Macfeast
Nargothrond

May 22 2013, 4:49pm
Post #64 of 102
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I'm considering a drinking game.
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Every time there's a closeup of Azog looking all smug and superior, take a drink. You might want to be careful during the finale though, when Azog's level of smugness is through the roof.
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The Mitch King
Nargothrond

May 22 2013, 4:50pm
Post #65 of 102
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The dwarf and orc scene was in daylight.
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I wonder if it's noteworthy that, with Azog, we never really saw him in a true daytime/daylight setting. Every time, it was either completely dark with only moonlight, the last gleam of light from the sunset, or at Azanulbizar (but still, I believe we shouldn't count this as normal daylight tone, because there were obviously a lot of grading and tone changes for this flashback. Overly orangish, and filtered.) But with Lurtz (if I remember correctly), we only saw him during the daylight hours. The closest it came to nighttime was the brief scene in the caverns of Isengard, which still had quite a bit of torch light. I know Azog's CGI gives some people problems, but I wonder if some of this comes from the specific lighting used for his scenes. It's usually full of white moonlight, which, of course, gives a much different look than daylight. I'm by no means trying to argue your point, or anything of the sort. I just thought this would be an interesting thing to point out, since the lighting between these two orcs seems very different. He looks the best in daylight imo! I mean when you sit down and watch it in blu-ray it is totally realistic and you don't question if he is actually interacting with real characters.
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin

May 22 2013, 7:31pm
Post #67 of 102
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I think he is a very good Azog, but Azog is dead and should be here as well,
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unless he is to be revealed as a puppet/zombie creature, preserved by the sorcery of the Balrog long enough to be turned into a reanimated slave by Sauron. But that is a lot of to do. He should have just died. The Azogscapade wasn't really necessary.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!" "Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin

May 22 2013, 7:48pm
Post #68 of 102
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Would have Been SOOOO much Better.
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Add Bolg trying to take revenge right there, but being outnumbered by the remaining dwarves. He retreats into Moria, is pursued by Dain and Thorin. . . who reach the stairs and look down to behold not Bolg but a Balrog, and flee gray faced with Dread just as Dain does in the book. Near Cannonical Perfection. And also freakin AWESOME. lol Thorin sees this and rallies the dwarf army to focus on Azog and this time succeeds. Bolg sees this but is too preoccupied with Dwalin at the moment. After the battle he finds Azog's body and swears his revenge against the Oakenshield. From there on, Bolg takes the place of Azog in the aforementioned scenes. This would make it a tale of two sons avenging their fathers. Just my thoughts, although I'm sure everyone else has considered this. Let me know what you think. "Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!" "Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin

May 22 2013, 8:02pm
Post #69 of 102
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Yet whether Bolg is dim witted or highly articulate (for the record, I don't think Lurtz was dumb, just not a conversationalist)
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remains a decision of the director and sciptors. He is only an ignorant savage if they make him seem so. They chose not to show Lurtz saying much of value. They chose, a more bothersome decision from my perspective, not to show how great a mastery of dark sorcery the Balrog wielded (though I suppose pulling flaming blades and whips out of the ether counts to an extent), but all those choices remain entirely at their feet. We would only get a "worse" Bolg, if they chose to give us one. Your gunna get some passionate responses on this topic.  First of all, what assumptions are being made when we say that things should have been much different? I think we are assuming the type of character Bolg is. Perhaps he is not a talker and more of just a brute. How much worse then would it be to have another lurtz that can hardly dialogue? We aren't in a position to say any characters we know nothing about should be doing this or that. Another assumption, that Dain was not in the battle and that his involvement will not be expanded upon in the next films. Maybe he is in the battle and they will just do another flashback when he is introduced? Or perhaps the reason he is not in AUJ is because they have big plans for his scene when he is finally introduced. One that would be less special if he was already revealed to us. I think they have big big plans for the dwarves of the Iron Hills and to be honest I would prefer he has a very impressive introduction. Now about Azog. First we have no idea how this will play out in the next films. I for one want him DEAD in DOS! I like his character because Manu Bennet is a great actor and all of us already know what Weta can do with CGI when they have time to perfect it so his look in AUJ is irrelevant to me. I expect a very intimidating Gollum-esqe Azog in DOS and not a "CGI abomination" (which I think is not even the case in AUJ). Maybe the extended editions will have an improved Azog who knows? Deleting all of Azog's scenes until the last scene just opens too many questions for me and I have no problem with them. Remember that the Great Goblin mentions him so the audience in no way would be surprised to see him at the end. What a way to find out he's alive still huh? I'd rather have the Weathertop scene. Azog may have been non canon but he pushes the company forward and only adds more excitement in my opinion. Too early to make large sweeping conclusions about him.  "Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!" "Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin

May 22 2013, 8:04pm
Post #70 of 102
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Much worse than the cgi, I would say. I thought the acting and CGI were solid.
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I thought the plot contortion was dreadful. All the plot elements involving Azog are hokey and just don't work. The writing around his character is as bad as the CGI. Sure, they need some recognizable "hero orcs", but they just didn't do a good job with this one. "Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!" "Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin

May 22 2013, 8:07pm
Post #71 of 102
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I don't know about Gollum or the mouth. The Witch King, Sauron and The Balrog certainly,
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Saruman if you take a moment and realize how much more powerful and dangerous than Azog he is. Gollum, the Mouth of Sauron, the Witch King, and perhaps even Saruman all seem more menacing than Azog. "Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!" "Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin

May 22 2013, 8:12pm
Post #72 of 102
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Just, Amen all over. Ms. Boyens has said alot of ire inducing things lately.
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The Bolg being "too complicated" is just ridiculous. Either Bolg and his father are going to be simultaneous antagonists in the same film, with Azog still having to die and Bolg being outraged and seeking vengeance (same complications, if you can call them such, as if the other had died before the threshold of Moria as he should have done, with The Balrog looking on in terrifying disdain), OR. . . they are going to go whole hog and reduce Bolg to a side note villain, possibly not even noting his relation to Azog, and going even further off the rails. Between this and her "Galadriel is the most powerful being in Middle-Earth" currently comment. . . getting a little fed up with some of her notions. Azog's dialogue comes across as very "B movie-ish" with a lot of corny one-liners. One of the big things that has been bothering me about Azog's inclusion is part of Philippa Boyens justification for it. In most interviews I've read she claims that "Azog the defiler" is a "great name" and "we just loved that name." I know their decision to resurrect this character was a little more thought-out. But if she keeps bringing that up in almost every interview I've read, it must have been a motivating factor in their choice. Seriously? You like the character's name? So you're going to raise them from the dead to be an antagonist for Thorin? She didn't want to use Bolg because the story would become "too complicated." The story has already become complicated enough! Your main hero, Thorin, already has two antagonists! The dragon, and the elves (not just Thranduil, but all elves (By the way is that even canon? I can't remember.))! And he comes across as a big grump! Why should we be rooting for him? Okay, now I'm off topic. Feeling that you really like a character's name, should not be partial justification for altering canon, and you're not keeping it "simpler" by not using Bolg. The story has already become convoluted almost beyond recognition! I fear that, in the next two films, the heart and focus of this story is going to be lost with their "multiple storylines." What happened to the story of a little guy who goes on an adventure? It's there somewhere, just under a lot of unnecessary stuff. "Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!" "Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin

May 22 2013, 8:21pm
Post #73 of 102
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LMAO Exactly. A very valid fear, one that may well be sadly realized
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I really hope they don't use him actively beyond DOS. To have him outlive Smaug would be an outrage on so many levels. He would become, essentially, a far greater villain in the story than Smaug, and only less great than Sauron because he would be in his employ, but he would still become the MAIN villain, not just of Unexpected but of the entire Hobbit Trilogy, and thus the main villain of the entire first have of the Sextet/Hexology including the Rings films. i deplore how such a good film maker can interpret such a classic story into the cheesefest that is mean old azog chasing dwarves. i wouldnt be surprised if he keeps popping up like a comedy character throughout the trilogy, round every corner, that darn azog, he just wont give up! "Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!" "Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin

May 22 2013, 8:29pm
Post #74 of 102
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Azog killing Thrain would have inflamed (and did) Thorin more than The Dragon's taking of Erebor.
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The dwarves wre highly patriarchal. They valued their fathers above all things, and Thror, as the Heir of Durin, was the symbolic father of the entire dwarven race. THAT is one of the big problems I have with Azog. It was the slaughter of Thror that started that dwarf war on the orcs, and the slaying of Azog was the entire intent of the war. "They hunted for Azog in every den under the Mountains." To have that fact absent is to take away a fundemental understanding of the Dwarves. They would not have allowed Azog to be peacefully dragged away. Killing him was EVERYTHING. The only way to salvage it is to have a twist on what happened with Dain. Dain saw The Balrog and came back from the gate, pale with terror, AFTER slaying Azog. The only way that would sensibly explain Thorin and his kin not at least going in to verify Azog's death, is (as we can reasonably assume would have been the case had Azog reached the sanctuary of Moria's halls before Dain caught him), if, as I have suggested, Thorin and Dain and some spare troop of Dwarves, perhaps, are revealed to have entered the mountain kingdom with that thought in mind, seen the demon, and come back terrified but unwilling to speak of their revelation. isn't really his CG design or the fact that they changed his role. It's just that they build him up to be this really super important antagonist--which would be fine if Smaug didn't exist. It should be Smaug who Thorin has wants to get his revenge on: he destroyed his home! What did Azog do except kill a character who we never even got to know? I think Azog was handled fine, I had nothing against his character. The fact that people are saying he's too generic is complete BS, IMO. It's just that the build him up too much when he's not the main villain, or at least he shouldn't be. If they wanted a recognizable antagonist for the course of the trilogy, they should've just made the orc pack itself the main force of evil, not Azog. "Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!" "Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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JWPlatt
Hithlum

May 22 2013, 8:31pm
Post #75 of 102
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Windows 8 And The Coven: Things In Common
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There was plenty of "The script was excellent where it did not deviate from Tolkien and fell apart where it did" in The Lord of the Rings discussions. This continues on in discussions about The Hobbit, perhaps even more so. Why do I equate this with Windows 8? Because just as Microsoft arrogantly decided what was best for them without considering what was best for us, The Coven writing team seems to have ignored our best advice in similar fashion. The LOTR commentaries, and I think especially those of Boyens, indicate that they believe they know our tastes better than we do. Any advice about The Hobbit from critics probably comes too late for the production to change much, but the proven advice about not deviating from major plot points has been available for many years. That's what I find so provoking.
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