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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Stirring the pot re: outcome of BoFA
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Kaede
Rivendell


May 21 2013, 2:46am

Post #1 of 45 (1420 views)
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Stirring the pot re: outcome of BoFA Can't Post

I recently saw what IMHO was a fellow fan mis-interpreting a comment they assumed meant that the ending of TABA might be rewritten to save the heirs. Please don't freak out--as I said, I think this was a fan misinterpreting something....I've heard no such thing from any actual source. (Repeat until blood pressure normalizes.) Better? Continue...

But it did get me thinking. I've been assuming all along that it's essential to the story that all three die--like Romeo and Juliet...they have to die to make the play a tragedy.

But as an exercise in thinking outside the box--do they? I think Thorin is done for, but Fili and Kili are offed by Tolkien in basically a single comment--almost an afterthought. Couldn't they simply abdicate and let Dain have the kingship and the gold without messing up the transfer of power in the plot, and then ride their ponies into the sunset? I imagine all manner of "not canon" freak out if it happened, however.

So, what do you think? For you to feel the films are a worthy experience, is it essential that all three die or is there wiggle room in the storyline?


(This post was edited by Kaede on May 21 2013, 2:48am)


bungobaggins
Lorien

May 21 2013, 3:43am

Post #2 of 45 (715 views)
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My opinion [In reply to] Can't Post

For me, Kili and Fili need to die defending their uncle. I was a little upset that they didn't introduce this fact in the first film. However, it was clear in some parts that Thorin was looking out for those two more than the others in the company.

Since PJ has resurrected Azog, I wouldn't put it past him to change who dies at the end of the Bo5A.

We know that they are really trying to build up the relationship between Thorin and Bilbo. The first film Thorin grows to accept Bilbo, the second film will strengthen their bond, and the third film will break that friendship and conclude with the reconciliation at Thorin's deathbed.

With this relationship being the main focus, the deaths of Fili and Kili would either go unnoticed or just be given a passing glance, and because they haven't really focused on the relationship between Thorin and his nephews, I can see how they would be able to get away with not having the heirs die through not emphasizing Fili and Kili's role as the proper heirs.

I think that if they do build a more emotional connection between Thorin, Fili, and Kili, that the nephews deaths at Bo5A would be warranted. If they choose not to do that, who knows, the deaths of Fili and Kili may seem hollow then.

But overall, for me, they need to die to adhere to the book. Smile


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


May 21 2013, 4:04am

Post #3 of 45 (701 views)
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Fili and Kili [In reply to] Can't Post

...fandom has, of course, already taken this meme and run with it, there are endless AU fanfics where they survive, artworks of their doom, and tons of art of them in younger days (with Thorin, so the fanbase has played up this relationship thoroughly).

I collected a few here...
http://pinterest.com/swordwhale/oakenshields-a-celebration-of-fictional-life/

Whether a major character lives or dies is a pretty large chunk of canon, so I doubt it will be changed. And I really think it would disappoint the fangirls who are already in mourning.

I see more character development in the next two films: especially between the boys and Thorin.

Go outside and play...


The Mitch King
Rohan


May 21 2013, 4:09am

Post #4 of 45 (620 views)
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I would prefer they died. [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah it will be sad but it will put to bed the notion that there is never any life threatening danger in these movies (see AUJ obstacles). Some ruthless dwarf killing will be good movie wise and it will keep in line with the book. I think Azog was only kept alive because he provided the filmmakers with a force to push on the company and perhaps connect the company storyline to the DG storyline (we will see the details in DOS). Letting K/Fili live is a much different situation imo but I think it is crucial that they explore their connection to Thorin and being a part of the line of Durin(which supposedly is gunna be wiped out as wanted by Azog).


Dwarvenfury
Lorien

May 21 2013, 4:19am

Post #5 of 45 (632 views)
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Are They Going to Back Down? [In reply to] Can't Post

This is an interesting topic, indeed. In my opinion, the easy way is
to change the story and have fili and kili survive. It would be a substantial change
to the canon, and it could demonstrate the inability of the film version to adequately
confront the story. That is, it seemingly is difficult to integrate the
deaths of fili and kili, espcially considering the levity of their character portrayals in the
film. There isn't necessarily that easy way of portraying their demise. Supposedly, they
expire defending wounded Thorin. This implies that they fall amidst a crowd of enemy orc.
This is an intimate fight and does not have the mitigations of distance that arrows would provide.
The book doesn't go into detail, and i don't think it necessary that it would, but this would more
than likely be a hand-to-hand struggle against an overwhelming swarm. In a way, some of the
characters who expire in the film version of lord of the rings are characters who are in a way
ready to meet their end when and wherever it may come. Though film fili and kili
are brave, sturdy warriors who would defend any in their company to their lives, they still
have that youth about them and that eagerness for existence, at least in the film version maybe.
Could be difficult for younger audiences to watch, but, hey, the young die in books too.
anyone agree?


Súlimë
Rivendell


May 21 2013, 5:11am

Post #6 of 45 (592 views)
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They need to follow the book on this one [In reply to] Can't Post

I know that Fili and Kili's deaths are mentioned almost 'in passing' in one sentence, but when I read it it was rather shocking to me. (I identified with Fili and Kili the most because they were 'the youngest') It really adds weight and consequence to the battle, IMHO.


Angharad73
Rohan


May 21 2013, 5:27am

Post #7 of 45 (610 views)
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I don't want them to *spoilers* [In reply to] Can't Post

die......all three of them. I don't want any of them to die. Because I'll be a sobbing mess when they do. But die they must. There's no way around that.

It's okay to mess with the book timeline a little and to add/change a few bits here and there, it's even okay to drag Azog from the grave, so to speak, but the outcome of the story has to be the same. And in the end, Dain will be King under the Mountain. For that Fili and Kili have to die in the battle, just like Thorin. That's the outcome of this story, and that has to stay the same, whether we like it or not.


(This post was edited by entmaiden on May 22 2013, 7:37pm)


Kaede
Rivendell


May 21 2013, 8:38am

Post #8 of 45 (524 views)
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Good points [In reply to] Can't Post

As someone said on another thread, young men die in old men's wars.


dik-dik
Lorien


May 21 2013, 9:52am

Post #9 of 45 (516 views)
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I can't imagine them *spoilers* [In reply to] Can't Post

surviving. Their fans would have a field day, and I personally would be just as fine with them surviving as with them dying. There have been so many changes from the plotline and spirit of the book already that I don't have a preference anymore on this one. (Though truth be told, I'd be far more interested in the AU of Thorin surviving, just for the sake of exploring his new-level interactions with the other characters. Wink )
To get my feet back on the ground now... I see the probability of any of the trio surviving as next to nothing. IMO, it wouldn't otherwise make much sense to bring Dáin into the story at all - yet another Dwarf with a name which must be easily confusible to many.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


(This post was edited by entmaiden on May 22 2013, 7:38pm)


Kaede
Rivendell


May 21 2013, 12:27pm

Post #10 of 45 (469 views)
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The relationship reveals at Esgaroth in the book [In reply to] Can't Post

As many folks here have reminded us. And Tolkien actually never uses the term "uncle" in relation to dwarf culture... So the films are being true to canon about the relationship so far...and we'll see how the reveal goes in DoS! In the book, the relationship is only mentioned twice: when Thorin introduces them as his father's daughter's sons...and when we learn that they die defending Thorin, who was their mother's elder brother. I think you're right about building a closer connection in DoS.


Kaede
Rivendell


May 21 2013, 12:50pm

Post #11 of 45 (466 views)
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Thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

Appreciate the curated Pinterest page (and nice artwork! Love your recycle images...t-shirt time for those!). I have to admit to being extremely wary of fan art--some is astoundingly wonderful, but then there's the dark side. On the other hand, I don't believe in censorship--so it's my job to not participate past my comfort zone Blush. Sorry for the rant. I do appreciate the work you've posted! Thanks for sharing...and thumbs up!


Subaruman
Bree


May 21 2013, 1:34pm

Post #12 of 45 (464 views)
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I always liked how the cartoon version had even more of them *spoilers* [In reply to] Can't Post

die. 6 or 7 of the dwarfs if I remember correctly. I actually wouldn't mind if PJ did the same (keeping the ones alive who are essential to story lines in LOTR).

"Here is a book very unsuitable for dramatic or semi-dramatic representation. If that is attempted, it needs more space, a lot of space."

- J.R.R. Tolkien, 1956

(This post was edited by entmaiden on May 22 2013, 7:39pm)


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


May 21 2013, 3:17pm

Post #13 of 45 (410 views)
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BOFA [In reply to] Can't Post

The levity of their character portrayals: we're only in film one... wait, there's more. I have no doubt they'll deepen and darken.

The BOFA in the book is always portrayed as dense and vicious. Beleg Cuthalion, in Children of Hurin, asks for a sword "because the orcs come too swift and close for a bow only." No doubt Kili has other options as well.

There's a lot of film left for character development. Look at Boromir, he had half of film one and there are still fans telling his story and moved by his fate.

Go outside and play...


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


May 21 2013, 3:19pm

Post #14 of 45 (423 views)
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pinterboard [In reply to] Can't Post

I kept seeing this fantastic art and wanted to put this subject in one place, Pinterest seems the easiest place to collect it and share it, while keeping links to the original artists. Some of the boards show my stuff as well.

Go outside and play...


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


May 21 2013, 3:26pm

Post #15 of 45 (413 views)
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tossed off in one sentence... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Hobbit is a style very different from modern film. It is a classic read-aloud tale, and the tougher stuff, the more adult stuff, is tossed off in one-liners, leaving it to the kids' limited imagination to deal with.

A film leaves little to the imagination. So far we've had many scenes expanded from how they appeared in the book. No doubt this will be as well.

Interesting to know that that one small sentence was still rather shocking to a kid. Another kid told me once (of her reading of Inkheart) that reading (or listening to) the book is different from seeing the film. She could imagine as far as her experience (and safety zone) allowed in the book. Not so much with a film.

I think Fili and Kili will definitely add weight to the battle. One reason for their character design is to show their youth, and to connect them with the younger audience, I think.

Go outside and play...


The Mitch King
Rohan


May 21 2013, 6:17pm

Post #16 of 45 (411 views)
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Thinking of the actual *spoilers* [In reply to] Can't Post

deaths. Large Gundabad orcs cutting through and stabbing them with rusty, ragged weapons! haha oh man that is a brutal death. There is no pretty way to show two young dwarves being cut down next to their already dying Uncle. Evil


(This post was edited by entmaiden on May 22 2013, 7:40pm)


Kaede
Rivendell


May 21 2013, 6:43pm

Post #17 of 45 (383 views)
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Oh, man is right! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeeeesh...that is palpable even in an email! (Shudder!). Crazy. I fear you are right, however. It has to be the kind of moment that drives a stake through the heart of Thorin's madness (and the audience's hearts), provided Thorin sees it. Then, I think, we not only believe but genuinely feel Thorin's 180 transition on his deathbed. You, sir, have a Shakespearean wicked streak.


(This post was edited by Kaede on May 21 2013, 6:44pm)


The Mitch King
Rohan


May 21 2013, 6:54pm

Post #18 of 45 (361 views)
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Good point about Thorin. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Yeeeesh...that is palpable even in an email! (Shudder!). Crazy. I fear you are right, however. It has to be the kind of moment that drives a stake through the heart of Thorin's madness (and the audience's hearts), provided Thorin sees it. Then, I think, we not only believe but genuinely feel Thorin's 180 transition on his deathbed. You, sir, have a Shakespearean wicked streak.


Sly


Elizabeth
Valinor


May 21 2013, 8:27pm

Post #19 of 45 (328 views)
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Hardly "unnoticed"! [In reply to] Can't Post

Millions of fans are already in love with our hottest dwarves! There will be floods of tears at their passing, I'm sure!








sycorax82
Rohan

May 21 2013, 10:27pm

Post #20 of 45 (312 views)
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I think more characters *spoilers* [In reply to] Can't Post

will die, not less! Despite it being canon that Bombur is alive during LOTR I wouldn't put it past Peter to kill the big guy off, using his death as a catalyst to rile up the other Dwarves.


(This post was edited by entmaiden on May 22 2013, 7:41pm)


painjoiker
Grey Havens


May 21 2013, 11:34pm

Post #21 of 45 (292 views)
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What if, [In reply to] Can't Post

What if Balin dies, and is resurrected by the Necromancer and turned "good" by Gandalf and then dies again in Moria Wink

Vocalist in the progressive metal band Renamed.

(This post was edited by painjoiker on May 21 2013, 11:34pm)


marillaraina
Rohan


May 22 2013, 12:29am

Post #22 of 45 (283 views)
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Hmmm.... [In reply to] Can't Post

For what it's worth, I think we already have the answer to whether they die or not because Aidan Turner mentioned it in an interview. Don't have a link but I think he's mentioned in two interviews a pretty sure statement of how they end up.


Guess it could change with re-shoots but I don't think so.


Kaede
Rivendell


May 22 2013, 2:05am

Post #23 of 45 (293 views)
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I've seen those.... [In reply to] Can't Post

And I think both AT and RA have been very careful to speak about the *book's* ending in interviews...not the film's. Kinda cagey of them. Wink I think they're contractually barred from discussing the film ending. I also think the ending hasn't yet been filmed...


(This post was edited by Kaede on May 22 2013, 2:06am)


marillaraina
Rohan


May 22 2013, 3:22am

Post #24 of 45 (262 views)
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Whoops [In reply to] Can't Post

I wish there was a way to put something in spoilers. :)


(This post was edited by marillaraina on May 22 2013, 3:27am)


Súlimë
Rivendell


May 22 2013, 6:03am

Post #25 of 45 (232 views)
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:D [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I collected a few here...
http://pinterest.com/swordwhale/oakenshields-a-celebration-of-fictional-life/

Oh, God, I can't stop giggling at all the Oakentoon. They're brilliant!

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