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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Why didn't they state in the credits The Movie was partly based/'inspired' by addtional material taken from LOTR and its appendices?

malickfan
Gondor

May 17 2013, 6:09pm

Post #1 of 15 (878 views)
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Why didn't they state in the credits The Movie was partly based/'inspired' by addtional material taken from LOTR and its appendices? Can't Post

Correct me if I'm wrong (I've only seen the film twice so I quite possibly am!) but I can't remember AUJ crediting LOTR as an addtional point of reference, its not particularly important but with all the time Pj and Co spent banging on about the '125' pages of appendices you would have thought they'd have the time/decency to credit it in the film-heck some of the dialogue seemed to be lifted directly from Fellowship (and UFT...), personally I think it was a little bit of a stretch to call the Film just The Hobbit, and given that a large number of people will be introduced to The book through the film, I would have preffered if they explained in The credits that the film was not a pure adaption of the book (on another forum one poster claimed his nephew read the book after seeing the film and was annoyed that it din't go into more detail about Azog and The White Council...).

Lets be honest alot of people skip the appendices anyway when they read LOTR,given the liberties the film took with the material, it would have been nice to have a pointer in the right direction for new readers...

Very few of my friends have read anything by Tolkien (That's another story...), and of those who have its mainly been The Hobbit- I wasn't surprised to find out, but rather annoyed that several were under the impression PJ improved the story by 'inventing' backstory for The Dwarves and bringing in old favourites from LOTR-it was infact only after I pointed out the appendices that they were aware the rights/and/or material actually existed! (Unlike myself they weren't eaglry follwing every news story related to The Hobbit).

Thoughts?

‘As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said ‘All is now ready.’

Perhaps the most fascinating Individual in Middle Earth



Darkstone
Immortal


May 17 2013, 6:45pm

Post #2 of 15 (553 views)
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Short answer... [In reply to] Can't Post

...that's how the Writers Guild of America (WGA) approved it, and they're sticklers for giving the correct credit.

Long answer, as I understand from the movie credit guide for the WGA:

First, story credit is given to the book that most closely resembles the final film. In this case, it is The Hobbit.

Second, the WGA doesn't like to use more names and credits than necessary. They feel too many degrades the value of all credits and lessens the dignity of all writers.

Third, if PJ did want to acknowledge LOTR he would have to get a waver from the WGA, which if they follow the guidelines above, they'd probably say no anyway.

******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.

(This post was edited by Darkstone on May 17 2013, 6:50pm)


malickfan
Gondor

May 17 2013, 7:11pm

Post #3 of 15 (427 views)
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Fair enough I guess that makes sense... [In reply to] Can't Post

Though I'm hoping PJ goes in to a lengthy confirmation in the EE's special features that it was not just The Hobbit he was adapting, I'm getting a little tired of seeing 'wow 3 films based on the children's book?' comments on IMDB...

‘As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said ‘All is now ready.’

Perhaps the most fascinating Individual in Middle Earth



jimmyfenn
Rohan


May 17 2013, 7:19pm

Post #4 of 15 (427 views)
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er? [In reply to] Can't Post

i think he has pretty well covered the fact he has expanded these films from the appendices. unless youre stuck down a mineshaft or hang out soley on the imdb forums, a simple google search/reading will back me up.

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro


Eleniel
Grey Havens


May 17 2013, 9:56pm

Post #5 of 15 (369 views)
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Even Cate Blanchett describes the movies as "The Hobbit...and something else" [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh yes, Jackson bangs on about the125 pages of Appendices that were apparently "Tolkien's notes for the extended version of The Hobbit" that he began in the 50's...

Did you also know, according to PJ, that "The Hobbit was almost a lifetime's work for Tolkien?" Funny, I could have sworn that was his Legendarium which was eventually published posthumously as The Silmarillion...

I jest not...see for your selves in the A Hobbit's Tale video, around the 16:30 mark.

http://youtu.be/3Jshdw8TxRU



"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


Dwarvenfury
Lorien

May 18 2013, 1:43am

Post #6 of 15 (317 views)
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interesting interviews [In reply to] Can't Post

It's interesting that you mention this, because I've heard PJ say something similar about
the appendices in a separate interview. If I interpreted it correctly, he spoke as though
it was Tolkien's intention to include this appendices content into the Hobbit narrative,
but he just didn't get around to it. Is it exactly known that Tolkien did not
get around to a final edit, or did he write merely to give context to some of the events
taking place around the Hobbit and deliberately refrained from incorporating the
content into the Hobbit itself? I found that part interesting and was wondering
if someone might clarify.

But i've been listening to more interviews from the direction and writing, and it's real
entertaining and insightful. Yet I gather from them a particular vision for these films
that I had not entirely conceived and it seems that the trilogy is on an inexorable path
down that road. I'd imagine nobody shows up to a promotion and trashes their own film lol, but
sometimes it seems that the direction speaks one language in these interviews and the film itself
possibly speaks its diametrical opposite. Why might this be?


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


May 18 2013, 2:01am

Post #7 of 15 (318 views)
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The sad part is... [In reply to] Can't Post

only 11 or 12 pages of those appendices have anything to do with the Hobbit.Wink THAT is the sad part of Jackson's statement, he keeps on hammering on about using the appendices material. And then the material they DID use they totally changed, to not resemble what was in the actual appendices. Hmmmmmm makes sense to me. Crazy

Well Never mind it makes completely NO sense whatsoeverTongue

11 or 12 pages is a far cry from 125, or at least I think it is.

That "something else" is a bunch of fan fiction made up by Jackson, Walsh, and Boyens. Unsure


(This post was edited by sinister71 on May 18 2013, 2:04am)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


May 18 2013, 2:13am

Post #8 of 15 (307 views)
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Tolkien rewrote a couple chapters [In reply to] Can't Post

from what I understand not a complete rewrite like Jackson keeps trying to tell everyone.Crazy Tolkien mainly rewrote Riddles in the dark to have Gollum's character fit better from the Hobbit to LOTR. As far as I know NO other rewrites have been published in the Hobbit or were ever going to be published. Tolkien realized once he tried changing the Hobbit more towards the style of LOTR it didn't feel like the Hobbit any longer. So he abandoned any total rewrite of it.

Some of the events from UT and the appendices (which there are very few pages about the Hobbit in) were written to flesh out the Hobbit but were never meant to be part of the story proper of the Hobbit. From my understanding they were written just to satisfy Tolkien in fleshing out the characters he created, and not to be part of the story of the Hobbit. Hence the reason they are unfinished tales IMO Wink


Dwarvenfury
Lorien

May 18 2013, 2:50am

Post #9 of 15 (317 views)
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well that's curious. [In reply to] Can't Post

I kind of suspected this much but wasn't sure. They said that this was the appendices
material but not sure why try to create the impression that the appendices content was
supposed to be part of the final, official Hobbit canon. Could this be a hint that the appendices
content plays a significant role in the upcoming films, to a point in which that material take
a whole personality of its own alongside the main narrative?

Though, this interview stuff about the appendices and the original canon have me wondering whether this will
add anything to the Hobbit narrative. It's conceded that's it's the Hobbit + the appendices, but not to worry because
the appendices material was originally supposed to be a part of the Hobbit. So we have two disparate narratives that will
form an awkward narrative dichotomy, but it is justified in that supposedly Tolkien wanted this all along, hence three films is
appropriate and will generate more promotional opportunities. this Tolkien story has become the means rather than the end, seemingly.
this does not bode well for DoS or TaBa Frown


malickfan
Gondor

May 18 2013, 7:28pm

Post #10 of 15 (197 views)
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The 2 Chapters from the 1960's rewrite is defintitely worth reading (The History of The Hobbit is more than equal to the HOME)... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but it is in no way tthe massive departure PJ and Co's comments give the impression of-The dialague and description is much more detailed and in line with LOTR, much of the narrators voice is toned down, and Gandalf and Thorin come across as much closer to their portrayls in the LOTR/Appendices (There are also a few surprises I won't spoil)...but it is still totally recognisable as being The Hobbit, and to be honest I never got the feeling from reading it that Tolkien ever intended to finish the rewrite- he did after all leave it til his late 60's (when he was immersed once more in The Sil) and only lent the results it to ONE unamed individual apparently unconected to his pubslishers, abandoing it after their critism, It is my firm believe if he ever intended to rewrite the book he would have done so (he did after all update the appendices in 1966) or sought more noteworthy approval.

As I understand it the rewrite was unknown even to Christopher Tolkien till the mid 1980's.

‘As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said ‘All is now ready.’

Perhaps the most fascinating Individual in Middle Earth



malickfan
Gondor

May 18 2013, 7:57pm

Post #11 of 15 (193 views)
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I swear just as much of the additional materil was actually taken from sources other than the appendices. [In reply to] Can't Post

For example:

The fact that Thorin carries an Oakensheild is not mentioned in the appendices, but is in the earlier versions of the appendices-publsihed in The Peoples of Middle Earth (something the writers have no rights to use)

Almost everything about Radagast is included in Unfinished Tales and Of The Rings of Power and The Third Age (The Sil)-again something they have no right to use, but since PJ and Co reffered to the writings about Radagst being intriguing one can only assume that was what they were refering to-Radagast isn't mentioned in the appendices at all. Though Radagast warning Gandallf on the Road was actually in the Fellowship book, and as far as I can remeber he was never suggested to have played a major part in the doings of the white council.

Bolg being the Torturer of Dol Goldur is totally made up, but according to the entry on him in The History of The Hobbit, Bolg roughly translates as 'Torture-Torment' or soldier of toment (from memory My copy isn;t to hand at the mo) in the Language lexicon's of the Book of Lost Tales (again something they don't have the rights to), it also suggests that Bolg was inspired by the 'Boldog' mentioned in the Lay of Leithian-the Boldog Tolkien suggested in a late essay were reincarnated fallen Maia spirits in the Service of Morgoth...I wonder possible inspiration for Azog?

Gandalf's fears about Smaug being utilsed by The Necromancer, and him noticing the change in Bilbo's character are again taken from Unfinsihed Tales.

Some of the dialogue 'You know I once caught her making off with my silver spoons?' 'Radagast that Fool' is lifted directly from, or reffering to, events taking place within the book of LOTR.

Gandalf noting that the trolls were moving down from the mountains and his feelings of increasing evl on the move seem to be inspired by the strange rumours and troubling tales the hobbits increasingily hear during Frodo's thirties in the beggining of the FOTR book

Whilst i won't deny it was kinda cool to see some of this stuff I agree about PJ and Co's comments- my biggest problem with the film isn't really with the film-it's the way they are using vague notes written decades after The book's publcation as justification for the way they are rewriting the story, and not being totally honest about it, especially since there is little evidence Tolkien ever intened the notes in the appendices and elsewhere as being anything more than notes standing apart from the book.

As I said above if he felt it was that important to include such references he could have done it, or at least issued instructions/permission to his literay exicutors.

‘As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said ‘All is now ready.’

Perhaps the most fascinating Individual in Middle Earth



Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 18 2013, 8:30pm

Post #12 of 15 (187 views)
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Minor corrections [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Gandalf's fears about Smaug being utilsed by The Necromancer, and him noticing the change in Bilbo's character are again taken from Unfinsihed Tales.



Gandalf's fears about Smaug are touched upon in LotR, Appendix A.


Quote

Gandalf noting that the trolls were moving down from the mountains and his feelings of increasing evl on the move seem to be inspired by the strange rumours and troubling tales the hobbits increasingily hear during Frodo's thirties in the beggining of the FOTR book.



Gandalf was told about the trolls in The Hobbit by the pair of Rivendell folk that he met on the road. "As I was saying I met two of Elrond's people. They were hurrying along for fear of the trolls. It was they who told me that three of them had come down from the mountains and settled in the woods not far from the road..."

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


DwellerInDale
Rohan


May 19 2013, 6:34am

Post #13 of 15 (168 views)
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And major correction [In reply to] Can't Post

 
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The fact that Thorin carries an Oakensheild is not mentioned in the appendices, but is in the earlier versions of the appendices-publsihed in The Peoples of Middle Earth (something the writers have no rights to use)

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Appendix A, footnote, p.438 of Harper Collins paperback:

"It is said that Thorin's shield was cloven and he cast it away and he hewed off with his axe a branch of an oak and held it in his left hand to ward off the strokes of his foes, or to wield as a club. In this way he got his name."


Don't mess with my favorite female elf.



Yngwulff
Gondor


May 19 2013, 8:08am

Post #14 of 15 (147 views)
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Bolg [In reply to] Can't Post

Bolg was referred to as Bolg of the North if I am not mistaken and rounded up all the Misty Mountain Goblins from their "capital" at Mount Gundabad not from Dol Guldur.
Fro what i've read there's no correlation at all between Bolg and Dol Guldur in Tolkiens writings.


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!


malickfan
Gondor

May 20 2013, 8:39am

Post #15 of 15 (138 views)
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Yes but Compare that to the version in Peoples: [In reply to] Can't Post

'Thorin's shield was cloven and he cast it away, and hewing with an axe a branch of an oak tree he held it in his lef5 hand to ward off the strokes of his foes or to weild as a club.Thus he got his name, or also because in memory of this he bore ever after at his back a shield made of oak wood without colour or device, and vowed to do so untl he was hailed as king'

(The Peoples of Middle Earth, The Making of Appendix A, Page 281)

As Christopher Tolkien note on page 287 'The Story that Thorin carried an unpainted shield of wood dissapeared'-it isn't in the appendices, and I distinctly remember Richard Armitage giving the impression in an interview that he came up with the idea of carrying around a wooden shield.

‘As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said ‘All is now ready.’

Perhaps the most fascinating Individual in Middle Earth


 
 

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