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telain
Rohan
May 20 2013, 2:32am
Post #1 of 93
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Silmarillion, Chapter 14: Of Beleriand and its Realms
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With the cessation of open conflict following the Dagor Aglareb, the narrative of The Silmarillion also comes to rest. Here -- dare I say! -- we come to a more "grounded" chapter. As this chapter has a different narrative style and a different purpose within the story, I am trying a slightly different approach to the discussion. This first post will be "general" questions relating to the geography of Beleriand and the inclusion of a map illustrating the landscape. Subsequent posts as needed-- this group does not need much prodding to talk! -- will relate to more specific questions regarding the text and its context within the larger book.
"Of Beleriand and its Realms" is a geographical description of the region of Beleriand and the distribution of its inhabitants -- some newly arrived from Valinor and in exile. The author describes everything from landforms to climate and vegetation and significant structures built by those living there.
"I wisely started with a map": On Cartography
Maps, particularly those in fantasy or science fiction books, are often crucial to the building of new worlds in the minds of the readers. How well does Tolkien's map (maps, plural, if you include those at the back of the book) help you understand Middle-earth? Does it help you visualize the description of the landscape in the text?
How do you use the map? Do you refer to the map often, or do you give it a quick glance and move on? Do/Did you draw your own map while reading the chapter?
Does Beleriand feel more "real" or solid because of the map than, say, mapless Valinor? And might that have been Tolkien's cunning plan? In the parlance of cartographers, does the "space" of Beleriand become a meaningful "place" with the inclusion of a mapped image?
I found it odd that the lands held by Morgoth was the first area described in detail (for many reasons), yet it is not pictured on the map included in my version of the book (A fortress-like structure is included in "The Second Silmarillion Map" HoME v. 5, and a more detailed landscape is available in Karen Wynn Fonstead's "Atlas of Middle-earth, though I have some... reservations there...).
Because they weren't on the map, I found myself confusing Utumno, Angband, and the mysterious "second fortress": "Behind the walls of Ered Engrin in the west, where they bent back northwards, Melkor built another fortress, as a defense against assualt that might come from Valinor." Why exclude Morgoth's Territory from the map of Beleriand? I also found this line awkward: "...and Finrod became the overlord of all the Elves of Beleriand between Sirion and the sea, save only in the Falas." So, not all the way to the sea, then, or, what is the extent of "the Falas" exactly?
Building on that last thought, sometimes the mental image that the text creates is not the same that an image helps define. Was there any part of Tolkien's map that did not seem to fit Tolkien's description? Any part you were tempted to "correct"?
Nevrast as a "hollow" land seemed to have a rather "unusual" geography. Were there any places that seemed exceedingly unusual or unnatural to you?
Place Matters: On Geography
Tolkien is a boon for geographers -- especially those of us interested in the intersection of place and identity. To be clear, I am not referring to environmental determinism, but it is clear that the places in which we live have an affect on us and we have an affect on the places we live. In Beleriand, we have the Noldor, Sindar, and Moriquendi and, I might contend, the description of places they have chosen to inhabit as indicators of their identities/characters in some way; a blending of the physical landscape and the cultural "landscape".
But to start, some general thoughts and questions.
Which of the landscapes captured your imagination? What about them drew you in? Did some of them remind you of real world places you have experienced (or imagined)? What comparisons to real world places seem obvious to you?
Another obvious question, but which place seems like one you'd like to visit (or, conversely, test your mettle)? Perhaps another way to ask the question is, which place offers the physical and cultural landscape that is most appealing to you?
Relationships between place and identity -- Who seems to fit their surroundings well? Maedhros in his precarious position vis-a-vis Morgoth? Turgon hemmed in on all sides in Nevrast (and later Gondolin)? Fingon's vast lands in which he can wander? Thingol, the Hidden King, but hidden literally in the middle of Beleriand?
Who is better defined by their choice of settlement? Did you get a better sense of a particular character because of the landscape they settled in?
In what ways either explicitly described or in how you imagine do these people(s) modify the landscapes they inhabit?
In the last chapter we learn that the Noldor love the open hillsides, while the Sindar loved the woods and riversides, and these descriptions seem to bear out in the descriptions of Beleriand and its inhabitants. What is it about open hillsides that attract Noldor and forest/riversides that attract Sindar; why do these peoples choose these landscapes?
As always, all comments and questions are welcome! And, to reiterate, posts on more specific aspects of the chapter to follow later in the week!
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elaen32
Gondor
May 20 2013, 9:53am
Post #2 of 93
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They really help in imagining worlds IMO and I think ME would be v difficult to interpret without them. You have made a lot of points here Telain, so I will start with the first few How well does Tolkien's map help you understand Middle-earth? Does it help you visualize the description of the landscape in the text? Some of this I answered above- I think the maps are essential to understanding, although some of them are a bit limited. The ones in the book (which are the only ones I have at present) don't tell us too much about the terrain- the falls of Sirion appear to be in the middle of a plain etc. However, in terms of illustrating where everybody is and how these regions relate to each other, the maps are great. I have ordered some ME maps which should be delivered on Wednesday, so will report back!
How do you use the map? Do you refer to the map often, or do you give it a quick glance and move on? Do/Did you draw your own map while reading the chapter? I am always flicking backwards and forwards to the maps, both when I read this chapter and others. I have the rough lay out memorised, but I think it is some of the name similarities eg Dorthonion, Dorlomin, Doriath, which make me keep checking. Many names beginning mith- or hith- also. But then I like maps anyway- I was always good at geography at school and have a good sense of direction so I will use a map over a sat-nav any day. I can sit and have a look at maps for ages, just for sheer interest (weird, I know!) I haven't ever drawn my own map whilst reading- I suppose because the maps are pretty good in the book and I am just so involved in reading the text, that I don't stop to do anything else. Perhaps I should try it!
Does Beleriand feel more "real" or solid because of the map than, say, mapless Valinor? And might that have been Tolkien's cunning plan? In the parlance of cartographers, does the "space" of Beleriand become a meaningful "place" with the inclusion of a mapped image? I agree with all of these points. Whilst one can imagine the lands and the whole world, making a map is like taking a photograph, it makes it more real. One can read a description of the Taj Mahal and have beautiful vistas in one's mind, but seeing a photograph makes it seem more of a real place. Valinor, in that sense, is meant, I think, to be more "unknowable". The descriptions of places in Valinor give a rough idea, but it is not as clearly laid out as the lands of Middle Earth. There are, of course, maps of Aman, but they are all more vague in general
Why exclude Morgoth's Territory from the map of Beleriand? I agree with your thoughts here (again!), I have always found it very frustrating that Morgoth's territory was excluded. One can get a rough idea, but I want to know how close these strongholds are to the Elves' territories, by what route would Luthien and Beren got to Angband, how did Melkor manage to escape so quickly to Utumno after destroying the Lamps? My guess is that since Melkor/Morgoth's lands are "hell" to Valinor's "heaven", they too are "unknowable" and thus not so clearly depicted Have got to go to work now!- to be continued.....
"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"
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Maciliel
Valinor
May 20 2013, 11:06am
Post #3 of 93
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love your take, elaen, re morgoth's locations being more fuzzily depicted, as are the valar's because they are god-dwelling regions, heaven and hell, and thus less knowable.
probably also fewer surveys, as the orcs kept eating the assayers.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 20 2013, 11:46am
Post #4 of 93
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What map? Which map? Why a map?
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I guess that participants will be looking at this chapter assisted by various maps, or no maps at all. A thorough discussion about the virtues of different maps might, perhaps drag us way of our subject here, but I thought we should take notice here that we may not be all looking at the same bit of cartography! And perhaps make helpful suggestions for members of the Fellowship of the Room who have inadequate maps. That's a real possibility - the eBook edition of the Sil (which I got as a stopgap when CuriousG started this read-through up a bit sooner than I'd bargained for  ) has no map at all,  just the descriptive text (it also lacks the family trees). Moreover, rendering maps at any helpful size can be a real problem for anyone reading on a smartphone, or early e-reader (such as an early Kindle device). This is not a new problem, of course - in the 1970s I read LOTR from a cheap paperback omnibus edition, which had poor maps - the fold-out maps which I think some editions had were broken into paperback-sized pieces which could be reproduced (though not very well). I was forced to join General Patton in his lament that interesting stuff always happened at the edge of your map!
For people in a mapless fix right now, maps can be found online, but I can't comment on their accuracy, or "officialness". Also, the mapmaker has to decide whether to mark things which might be spoilers to the first-time reader (e.g. the location of battles, or the routes taken by characters). So some maps might contain stuff you don't want to see yet!
My personal maps situation re Sil maps is not now that bad: Shortly after we started, I was pleased to find a 1st-edition hardback Sil in a second hand bookshop.That's the same edition that I completely failed to get through when it was first published, but I'm doing better this time! So I do have an edition which has the original fold-out map. Other people will of course have one or more of the books of Tolkien-based maps which have been published since (out of interest, which ones do you feel are the best - so as not to get too far off subject, I mean which maps would you recommend for the purposes of the discussion of this chapter?)
I think maps, and the lack of them in fantasy stories are themselves a pretty interesting area. Possibly Tolkien pretty much started the idea of including a map with a fantasy story? In the King Arthur fantasy, for example, Camelot is "somewhere" (various British locations have tried to lay claim to it) and there's a free-wheeling middle section in which Camelot is the start and end points of quests which take knights of...well.somewhere else. Or, consider the Rime of the Ancient Mariner - hard to say which parts of that journey take place in the real world, and which in some kind of Faerie or world which exists only in the Ancient Mariner's mind. (Disclaimer - the Rime is fresh & interesting to me as I always found it unreadable on paper, but at Mrs N-W-M's suggestion found a good podcast of it yesterday. Bingo - see the point of it now. And enthusiasm for it, rather than knowledge of it is making me raise it here).
Tolkien though, found maps essential. Here's an interesting interview of George RR Marin in which he say the same:
"I tell him that in my teens I had a map of Middle Earth pinned to the wall, with the route of Frodo’s journey picked out with drawing pins. Maps are very important in fantasy, Martin says .... “When you are reading historical fiction and the character says, ‘I must go to Cornwall,’ you know where Cornwall is, you don’t need a map. But when a character in Westeros says, ‘I must go to Dorne’ – you don’t know where that is. So we had to include a map in the opening credits [of the TV series].” " From Lunch with the FT: George RR Martin
So I see how useful a map is as a kind of notes to the Author - if he or she says that this or that route is dangerous because of impassible marshes, and the only viable route is three days march down the road, some readers will immediately see the plot hole if that obstacle disappears later. As a topical example, in the last chapter we were discussing whether the Noldor's super-effective blitzkrieg on arrival in Middle-earth was credible. My doubts about it were not really about combat effectiveness (as I said, I remember Gildor routing the Black Riders at the Ford in LOTR, then imagine I've got an army of those). But presumably the Noldor don't know the terrain at all well (unless they have memories and maps from the earlier march West). That should be their weakness (and I suppose it does turn out that way in a sense in that Feanor gets ahead of his column & gets balrogged).
Should the reader be forced into looking at the map, or should the text be standalone? I prefer it if I'm not forced into doing that. Ideally, the text should be basically comprehensible without, I think. Or, I'd be happy with a helpful footnote suggesting I check the map (or even, a map designed to help me at this point!). Producing a map does carry with it the risk of lazy writing - don't explain stuff, because we assume the reader will think check the map. But that only occurs to me when I'm confused and so now a bit irritated with the story. However, I'd rather look at the map than read long "infodump" passages (in which information the audience needs is imparted in a rather clumsy manner - e.g. one character explains to another information which they would both be expected to know well already).
As with a lot else, tolerance depends upon whether you are enjoying the tale enough to be on the author's side - and that depends upon your belief that the author is continuing to be on your side. [I appear to be turning into Treebeard here. Hoom hoom.]
And as I tend to forget geography passages quickly anyway, a map is useful to refer back to. (It may be germane to declare that I have one of the worst senses of direction or memory for routes of anyone I know. Given a map and a compass, I'm fine, but otherwise its not the kind of information which readily sticks around in my head. Stop me for directions in my home town & watch my eyes glaze over.... )
So I guess that I usually should refer to the maps more than I generally do in early readings. Probably I'm going to resort to it only if confused by the text. If I like the story enough to have another go, I might be in the mood to, say, study the map to work out the troop movements of the siege of Minas Tirith. I haven't got to the point where "in my teens I had a map of Middle Earth pinned to the wall, with the route of Frodo’s journey picked out with drawing pins", but maybe I should give that a go sometime.
An oddity in this current book is that we have a chapter of geography. I see that as one of the many unusual things Tolkien does in the Silmarillion. It would be more normal to impart the geography we need as the story goes along. In The Lord of the Rings, say, he has to impart any geography in smaller chunks, so as not to bog down the story. The longest geography section I can think of is the Fellowship of the Ring debating their route options at the start of A Journey in the Dark. That rather cleverly avoids being an infodump by the way- several of the Fellowship know the different routes well, but there is genuine need for debate about the various risks and merits. That allows Tolkien to raise quite naturally the geography which we, the audience, need. Also (as in many other places) we benefit from having the comparatively ignorant hobbits as our proxies. Issues need to be explained to them, and that allows a discussion which would be very un-natural if it were only between the seasoned travelers of the Fellowship, but which can contain the information which the audience needs.
By contrast, in the Sil, all action can be interrupted for a chapter while we do a roll-call of the Valar (Ch 2), or have this geography lesson.
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
(This post was edited by noWizardme on May 20 2013, 11:47am)
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Maciliel
Valinor
May 20 2013, 1:16pm
Post #5 of 93
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various reasons for the maps, their detail, and their placement in the narrative.
reasons both exegetic and diegetic.
exegesis: tolkien loves land, love physical journeying. he imparts that to the tale. he probably got a taste for how valuable maps are (or how useless) during his world war i days. mapping his story, apart from adding to the universe, probably also helped him as a creator: making the world more real to the author, serving as a guide to plotting and time, etc.
diegesis: the elven loremasters are best recounting, for their elven audience in aman, lands that many of them may barely remember or not have seen (and are now lost). the epic history has to be put into context by the loremasters. plus, if we also take that the sil is then communicated by these elven loremasters to edainish ones, perhaps we have partially finished chapters, or the whole tome carried back to the mainland and transcribed by many mortal authors from bits and pieces of elvish lore, that may not have been part of a whole or complete narrative beforehand, but have now been cobbled together to function as such (hey! a lot like the exegetic origins of the sil, and how christopher had to wade through father's papers!).
a map is nice, but it's only really valuable if it aligns with the storytelling. if we have things in the map that don't make sense and look manufactured, that's as bad as the eagles ex machina (mirthful nod to telain : ) ) swooping in to save the day at the climax of every chapter.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
(This post was edited by Maciliel on May 20 2013, 1:18pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 20 2013, 1:19pm
Post #6 of 93
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Here be dragons (in the case of Morgoth's realm, quite literally!).
I suppose two more issues for the fantasy cartographer are
- Some regions might be unknown or poorly known to the characters (and that sense of mystery breaks down if you map them accurately)
- Geography itself might break down in the odder parts of a fantasy world, just like the normal conventions of time can.
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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telain
Rohan
May 20 2013, 1:53pm
Post #7 of 93
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your guess is a very good point!
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One can get a rough idea, but I want to know how close these strongholds are to the Elves' territories, by what route would Luthien and Beren got to Angband, how did Melkor manage to escape so quickly to Utumno after destroying the Lamps? My guess is that since Melkor/Morgoth's lands are "hell" to Valinor's "heaven", they too are "unknowable" and thus not so clearly depicted
Exactly. I am drawing a map while I read this chapter and I find I just don't know where to put some things. The tunnel goes through the Ered Engrin in the south, at the end of which is Thangorodrim -- OK. That's mappable. But where is the other end? What is the "other fortress" in the western side of the mountain chain? There have been several battles with Morgoth by this point, but it seems none get past Thangorodrim, which brings me to Maciliel's point about the Elvish surveyors not able to get the lay of the land (due to being dinner for a few hungry orcs...)
And your point about Morgoth's realms mapped as vague and nebulous as it is the hellish counterpoint to Valinor has lovely symmetry to it. I think it makes sense from both practical and metaphysical standpoints.
But it is rather frustrating! And to just end the map at the Ered Engrin instead of depicting a sort of vague territory of evil to the north feels unfinished .. and not at all in keeping with my impression of the thoroughness of Elvish loremasters and cartographers!
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telain
Rohan
May 20 2013, 3:07pm
Post #8 of 93
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hic sunt verbosity (here be "wordiness")
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No map! Hmmm. Methinks The Professor would not be terribly impressed in the aforementioned ebook.
I gave a detail of this famous quote earlier in my original post, and as I am both a cartographer and a geographer, I feel it mandatory to include the rest here (from Letter #144):
I am sorry about the Geography. It must have been dreadfully difficult without a map or maps. … I wisely started with a map, and made the story fir (generally with meticulous care for distances). The other way about lands one in confusions and impossibilities, and in any case it is weary work to compose a map form a story -- as I fear you have found.
Of course,Tolkien is writing from his experience creating the story from the map (in concert with the map). Readers, on the other hand, have many different experiences with maps. Some people find them impossible, or nearly impossible, to visualize; they depend far more on the mental images and imaginings created from the textual description. Others find the maps absolutely necessary and will gloss over the textual description until they see the mapped image and the visualization can more fully and accurately form. And then there is every possibility in between.
Some landscapes are easier to imagine for some people, others are just not possible, whether from lack of real world experience or lack of an ability to transform the text into a image -- and I don't think that is a deficiency in either the writing (unless the author is just a bad writer) or the particular reader's mind. We are all wired a bit differently, we all have different experiences both in fantastical and real world landscapes, and therefore the experience we have whilst reading a geography of (Beleriand, in this case) is different for everyone. The fact that a map(s) was included -- at least in the publishing "regular" books -- signifies Tolkien's understanding that geographical textual description may not be enough for all readers to get a firm enough grasp of the landscape.
What I think is important to understand here is that Tolkien wanted the readers to understand the geography; there is something vital about the physical and cultural landscape that is important for readers to internalize before progressing any further with the narrative. Which is why, incidentally, I think elean's and Maciliel's point about the vagueness of Valinor and Morgoth's realm is salient. Those places are not grounded in the same way Middle-earth is. And to understand the what and why and how of the rest of the story, we all need a decent grasp of the landscape.
All that in a vain attempt to answer your questions: "What map? Which map? Why a map? The why is above (though I obviously could go on and at length about it. The first two questions, though, are difficult to answer. If one has access to the map(s) in The Silmarillion, I think that is the best references for the purposes of our discussion (a bit like HoME, since we are not actually discussing HoME, it is not necessary to bring it in. Though it absolutely does help round out the discussion from time to time!)
I mentioned Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle-earth. As also mentioned, I have reservations. Generally speaking, I don't love the cartography. Easy for me to say. The atlas would have been an incredibly difficult and onerous undertaking and I commend her for it! (and am more than a little jealous!) And I understand, having been involved in publishing maps, that the printers have certain constraints that don't always allow for the best representations. Having said that, I still have reservations about some of the placement and "fixing" of some of the places. For instance, she does have maps of Morgoth's territory, and she does locate and give quite detailed maps of Thangorodrim and Angband. She does not place Utumno, which is I think wise; as soon as a map places a feature, it is very difficult to keep it vague (as discussed above, I think that is important for the overall impression of Morgoth's territory.) She also does not place the "other fortress" and that is a bit a problem for me, since Tolkien quite specifically locates it in the western side of the mountain chain as they curve back northwards. Because she did not include that, the Ered Engrin do not have the right "shape" as I imagine them to from the description -- they are not as curved (arc-shaped) as I think Tolkien intended them to be. Would I recommend the Atlas? If you love Tolkien and love maps, then absolutely. But I am circumspect about it. It is not perfect -- both in the sense that Tolkien's work is in part in our imaginations and no other person will faithfully reproduce or anticipate what we imagine, but also in the sense that some of Fonstad's decisions are debatable.
Some of the other maps made by non-Tolkien cartographers (I am thinking of the Howe and Denis Wood's rather scathing review of it) always leave me wanting. I always go back to the maps in the Tolkien's books and rely on my own cartographic skills and geographic awareness to fill in the gaps. Not because I think my skills are any better, but I feel it is what Tolkien intended -- for the reader to form their own imaginations based on some fixed geographical features. But, and here is a bit of one of my favourite quotes, so I may have to add it to the appropriate discussion thread, "…advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise,…" So, I think that if the particular Participant is curious about other maps found in other places, I say the more the merrier! And if a new post on cartography alone needs rekindling, I would be in full support.
And just one more thing (is this post really this long?) I have a thought about this idea:
But presumably the Noldor don't know the terrain at all well (unless they have memories and maps from the earlier march West). That should be their weakness (and I suppose it does turn out that way in a sense in that Feanor gets ahead of his column & gets balrogged).
First of all, "gets balrogged" is awesome and hilarious -- even though it is tragic.
Second, my thought is that the Noldor learned "geography" in Valinor -- not just the specific geography of a place, but how to read a landscape. I fear it is a skill few have in the modern world. For me, it would not take them long to know and understand the new terrain they inhabit, therefore knowledge of the land would be not be difficult or overlong for them to get, and certainly I think it would be better than the knowledge attained by Morgoth's orcs.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 20 2013, 3:54pm
Post #9 of 93
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Geographcal plausibility, orc-fiction, a surprised teen, and the unexplored Wild East
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Well I enjoyed your long answer, telain!
Tolkien is good at this isn't he - he does seem to have a sense that enables him to make a likely-looking map. His descriptions make places sound like he's been there: I suspect he must have had a keen eye for the scenery on his various travels.
But he does seem to have a tic for lands enclosed on 3 sides by mountains (Mordor and Hithlum) - I've not been able to think of any real Earth examples. (But this might not signify: in one of my posts I comment that I can't think of any Tolkien characters ending in -o; which was just my brain glitching, of course! A couple of minor hobbit characters in Tolkien's fiction end in -o, of course )
One thing that shows how a map -like made-up language - is hard to do is the many poor and unmemorable maps which appear in unmemorable "orc-fiction" (by which I mean fantasy works in imitation of the masters, without any real creative spark of their own).
Reading the chapter today (and marking up my map with pencil comments of whose land is whose) reminded me of my initial shock, 1977 or '78 of looking at this map and noticing it's all West of Ered Luin (whereas LOTR takes place to the East of that range, which is pretty much on the coast of the Third Age world. They and Himling/Himring are pretty much the only overlap between the maps in the 2 books). My cheapo omnibus LOTR edition lacking the appendices, I was clueless about where Beleriand had got to!
Tolkien is also thinking in a fairly military way about the land, and how the elves fortify weak points and investigate Islands as possible final refuges. Which makes me think it's odd that, in the final paragraph of the chapter we read:
...none of the Noldor went ever over Ered Lindon, while their realm lasted Plausibly, they lacked the numbers for settling the Wild East, but you might expect explorers and scouting parties. They are running cavalry patrols along their borders with Angband, searching for allies or enemies of Morgothian activity to their North-East would seem only sensible so as not to be caught out. Anyone got any theories?
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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telain
Rohan
May 20 2013, 4:39pm
Post #10 of 93
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orogeny, map symbolism, and statements made with stark finality
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But he does seem to have a tic for lands enclosed on 3 sides by mountains (Mordor and Hithlum) - I've not been able to think of any real Earth examples.
I've been looking for those, too, and I haven't been successful. Though, I also won't be surprised if someone comes along and reminds us all that _____ is bounded on three sides! Part of it resides in orogeny (mountain-building, for those reading this without physical geography/geology backgrounds).
Most big mountain chains are result of faulting (think Andes, Himalayas), which generally occurs in longer lines at or near existing or ancient tectonic plate boundaries. While you might get small faults coming together in triangular formations, it is not "usual" and anyway the smaller faults don't result in big mountains.
The other possibility is that the iconography/symbology of Tolkien's map(s) is deceptive. It looks like Ard-galen is a large, perfectly flat plain until whoosh! up rise the Ered Wethrin. What is more likely is that the land rises more subtly and steadily, then there are foothills, then the mountains. I say this, because Tolkien is clear about the north and south sides of Dorthonion: the north is a gentle slope, the south is sheer cliff faces. In this situation (attention! telain digressing into physical geography explanation once more!) the sheer cliffs are plausible given uplift in the southern part of Dorthonion relative to stationary (or downthrust) land of the northern part of Thingol's realm.
So, is it fantastical geography or faulty symbolism? Both? Neither?
I was going to comment on this, so I'm glad you did...
...none of the Noldor went ever over Ered Lindon, while their realm lasted
It is so final... so... definite. How could anyone be sure?
In my mind, an outtake from LOTR's "Many Meetings" chapter goes something like this:
Frodo asks Elrond: "Not one Noldo ever went over Ered Lindon? Not ever?"
Elrond responds: "No, my dear Frodo. Not one. Not ever."
(In the background, Lindir leans over to Erestor and says: "Well, actually, Gildor's second cousin went over Ered Lindon -- with a fine-toothed comb! He set up a charming place on the banks of the Gwathlo just south of the Swanfleet...")
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 20 2013, 5:13pm
Post #11 of 93
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So, would a place surrounded by mountains be "an orogeny zone"? //
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Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 20 2013, 5:35pm
Post #12 of 93
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On a more serious note- middle-earth geological reconstruction
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Have people seen this
As if J. R. R. Tolkien wasn’t brilliant enough with his creation of Middle-Earth, it appears that using his numerous maps and illustrations provided, supplemented by observations from within the texts themselves, a geological reconstruction can be achieved! I recently came across this old article from the Proceedings of the J. R. R. Tolkien Centenary Conference, Oxford, England, 1992, and figured it was worth sharing.
[goes on to give details...]
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
(This post was edited by Altaira on Jun 7 2013, 4:10am)
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Maciliel
Valinor
May 20 2013, 6:10pm
Post #13 of 93
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1. are these maps exegetic (author-provided) or diegetic (elf- or edain-derived)?
if author-provided/exegetic, the odd geography may look like a mistake (which to me it sometimes does).
if elf- or edain-derived/diegetic, they could...
a. represent the actual terrain (flat lands, then all of a sudden, mountains!)
b. some of the odd mountain groups (the three-sided ones) could be the result of morgoth and sauron manipulating natural geologic forces for their own purposes (this is how, many years ago, i made sense of the mountains around mordor). so, they are "artificial" in the sense that they were consciously made by ainur, but "natural" in the sense that they were made according to the rules of the tolkien universe.
either way, i've come to take the maps as suggestive ("here there be mountains!") rather than topographical. tolkien's mountains and rivers on his maps often seemed artificial-looking to me.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
May 20 2013, 6:14pm
Post #14 of 93
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.... tolkien himself commented in one of his letters that he had fumbled some of the distances when he wrote some of frodo's travels. he realized this when he looked at one of his maps for reference.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 20 2013, 7:05pm
Post #15 of 93
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Fun with Maps! (More to follow later)
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Maps, particularly those in fantasy or science fiction books, are often crucial to the building of new worlds in the minds of the readers. How well does Tolkien's map (maps, plural, if you include those at the back of the book) help you understand Middle-earth? Does it help you visualize the description of the landscape in the text? It does. I love the maps because I am a very visual person. I also like to picture where the sun is etc. when I am picturing scenes or mapping travels.
How do you use the map? Do you refer to the map often, or do you give it a quick glance and move on? Do/Did you draw your own map while reading the chapter? I flip back and forth a lot, have a look, read further and flip again.
Does Beleriand feel more "real" or solid because of the map than, say, mapless Valinor? And might that have been Tolkien's cunning plan? In the parlance of cartographers, does the "space" of Beleriand become a meaningful "place" with the inclusion of a mapped image? Excellent point on that being a plan. I think the substantial but very spiritual place of Valinor exists distantly 'in memory' of those in Arda, so having no pictures fits with that idea.
I found it odd that the lands held by Morgoth was the first area described in detail (for many reasons), yet it is not pictured on the map included in my version of the book (A fortress-like structure is included in "The Second Silmarillion Map" HoME v. 5, and a more detailed landscape is available in Karen Wynn Fonstead's "Atlas of Middle-earth, though I have some... reservations there...). Because they weren't on the map, I found myself confusing Utumno, Angband, and the mysterious "second fortress": "Behind the walls of Ered Engrin in the west, where they bent back northwards, Melkor built another fortress, as a defense against assualt that might come from Valinor." Why exclude Morgoth's Territory from the map of Beleriand? I also found this line awkward: "...and Finrod became the overlord of all the Elves of Beleriand between Sirion and the sea, save only in the Falas." So, not all the way to the sea, then, or, what is the extent of "the Falas" exactly? I have made that mistake many times, and had to reference Utumno and Angband! (I am bookless, at work, but I must admit I would have to look up the details of The Falas to answer that question...!) Leaving out Morgoth's territory - is it to obscure it, stressing it is a realm of shadow? Sort of mirror-image to (dreamlike) Valinor's lack of mapped substance in that it would be a (nightmarish) place one DIDN'T want to remember, and thus remains shadowy and undefined (?)
Can't wait to answer some more later on...!
Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."
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telain
Rohan
May 20 2013, 10:17pm
Post #16 of 93
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...divided (on whether the maps are exegetic or diegetic). As soon as I start to form an opinion one way, I find something that pulls me in the opposite direction. It might look something like this:
Pro-exegetic Counsel:
Telain, it seems likely from the various Letters that Tolkien very consciously put the maps in to illustrate what was going on in order to inform modern real world readers. The maps were clearly a way for him to tell the story and tell it consistently. The fact that he included a map was merely the publishers' insistence, and, well, Christopher made them anyway! Exegetic!
Pro-diegetic Counsel:
On the other, there is strong evidence from The Hobbit that the map included was very clearly intended to be a part of the story! Since The Hobbit was published first, would it not stand to reason that, even if the publishers demanded a map, that Christopher et al would follow that lead and include a map meant to be seen as Elven- or Edain- drawn? The map is diegetic!
And so on and so forth...
And I think that there is both a "fantastical" geography -- due to Morgoth, primarily (I mean, he did create the Grinding Ice, so I imagine a few weird mountain ranges is rather de rigueur for him) -- as well as ambiguous iconography/symbology. I do think that in some places the mountain ranges are meant to be imagined "springing up" off the flat plain (like the Grand Tetons, for one example), but in others, I think it is a "problem" of symbology.
In Dorthonion, the description clearly states that the northern edge is gentle, but the southern edge is steep, yet that is not how I would interpret that landscape if I was just looking at the map. In fact, it looks like Dorthonion is "hollow", like Nevrast, however:
By gentle slopes from the plain it rose to a bleak and lofty land, where lay many tarns at the feet of bare tors whose heads were higher than the peaks of Ered Wethrin, ...
That landform would be tricky to illustrate in a map like the one found in the published book, particularly when trying to include the more important "place and people" labels. Even so, if I just looked at the map and did not read the description, I would have a very different concept in mind of what Dorthonion looked like.
And I think you have the right attitude toward the map (as suggestive). The mountains and rivers do look "artificial"; in fact they very nearly resemble the "patterns" that real world historical cartographers would use when they knew that an area of land contained mountains (or vegetation, or whatever), but those areas were not surveyed accurately. Same might be said for modern video game designers...
Just stop me when I go on for too long...
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squire
Half-elven
May 21 2013, 1:28am
Post #17 of 93
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Maps in a fantasy story - whose idea was that?
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It's an interesting problem trying to figure out Tolkien's role in forming the now-almost-universal maxim that a fantasy world must be accompanied by a map. I never felt that Tolkien was the originator of the idea, and just a little research tonight has produced a few predecessors.
Humphrey Carpenter, in his biography of Tolkien, notes that young J. R. R. did not like Treasure Island by Stevenson, preferring tales of Red Indians. So clearly Tolkien read the 1881 book, which features Stevenson's own Treasure Map with the classic X marking the spot. (In fact, as it appears, Stevenson made the map before he even wrote the story, taking Tolkien's famous (but debatable) dictum "I started with a map" to its logical extreme.) Is this fantasy? No - but it's not reality either: the story takes place in the Days of Pirates (mid 1700s) but is fictionalized, so that the Treasure Map is of an imaginative, rather than a real place. That seems like a real precursor to Tolkien's instinct to produce his own "Treasure Map" of the Lonely Mountain in The Hobbit.
Another example I found was also in the realm of children's literature, in a book which Tolkien is on record as being a fan of: Ransome's Swallows and Amazons series. Although it's set in the Lake District of England, the location is a fictional amalgam rather than a specific place. So Ransome provided a map in his 1931 book (below), to allow his young readers to follow the adventures of the teenage protagonists.
Three other examples, one which came to mind and two that I researched: Winnie-The-Pooh (1926) has a map of the Hundred Acre Wood; Peter Pan in the Kensington Gardens (1906) has a map of the author's fairy version of Kensington Gardens; Tik-Tok of Oz (1914), one of Baum's Oz series, has a "Map of the Marvelous Land of Oz Drawn by Prof. Wogglebug T. E.".
What was the earliest example of a map being provided by the author of a book about a non-real place? I still don't know, but I suspect it occurs quite a while before Treasure Island. I also suspect that by the 1930s, when Tolkien wrote The Hobbit, the tradition of providing a map for an imaginative adventure story for young people was quite well established. When did that translate into the idea of a world-map for a fantasy universe, such as Tolkien provided for The Lord of the Rings and made for his own use while writing The Silmarillion? I'm not sure; all I can speculate is that in the 1940s and 1950s, "fantasy" was not yet its own genre, and authors of every stripe and persuasion were providing maps for their readers whenever the publisher agreed to cough up for the cost of the engraving. What I like about the Lord of the Rings map (the Silmarillion map existed before the LotR one, but had no chance of being published at the time) is its fold-out feature, so much bolder and committed than a simple end-paper or a plate inserted in the frontispiece or text.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd (and NOW the 4th too!) TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Maciliel
Valinor
May 21 2013, 1:50am
Post #18 of 93
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great finds --- thanks, squire. : )
with tolkien, perhaps a chicken and and egg conundrum... what can be considered the "start"? perhaps there is no definitive start.
when did his love of rambling walks and nature begin? walks of that sort might stimulate thoughts of the bigger picture / maps / histories / personalities. (simplifying here) did he imagine an elf walking in the wood, and a map of faerie? or did he (simplifying here) envision a map of real terrain, and started altering it in his head, populating it with personalities?
again, thanks for unearthing all these cartography gems.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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telain
Rohan
May 21 2013, 2:12am
Post #19 of 93
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Herman Moll was a cartographer and globe-maker in the late 1600s-early/mid 1700s. He apparently lent illustrations and maps to Daniel DeFoe's works and, more famously, to Jonathan Swift's Gulliver's Travels.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 21 2013, 12:39pm
Post #20 of 93
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More thoughts about maps, not to scale
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("Not to Scale" because this thread has stimulated many thoughts, and I'm a bit vague about where the roads run between them)
Really interesting pre-Tolkien examples Squire et al! I suppose that, up until pretty recent times, the production costs of producing maps would have been a significant consideration (lots of Tolkien letters touch on this, if I recall). So unless & until young Azog the fantasy potboiler writer is immediately asked "where's your map, then?", maps will only have been printed if someone cared enough to argue hard for them.
Also of course, making a map, especially if its a good one rather than a sketch map, is a significant and skilled labour- a further cost, unless the author (or his son in Tolkien's case) can do it.
Then again, cartography requires accuracy. Things which the author can leave vague in the text (intentionally or because he/she's not thought things through exactly) will have to be solved specifically as soon as one tries to draw a good map. Where's the border? Can you get through that pass? How far is it to Rivendell, compared with the distance to the Havens? Oh, it looks from the map like you could do ____________, so why didn't the characters just__________ ? Detail and vagueness are both tools the fantasy writer can use to effect - mapping things pushes you into detail. And editorial costs as you read the text against teh map to check for errors (then correct them).
It makes me wonder - what effect does creating a map have on the writing? Does it lead the story in directions that it wouldn't otherwise have found?
I was thinking about authors who do not provide maps (as far as I am aware - of course I may be basing this on the editions I happen to have read, or having not noticed a map, or having misremembered...). But my list has the following as very successful stories not providing maps much if at all:
- Harry Potter (by JK Rowling)
- Discworld novels by Terry Pratchett
- Narnia (by CS Lewis)
I think I know why.
Young Potter's adventures happen mostly in set locations (The Dursley's home, Hogwarts, Diagon Alley). I don't recall there being much interest in the geography of getting him from A to B. If the journey is remarked upon at all it is the mode of transport (something original & exciting - e.g. Hogwarts Express; Knight Bus; "Borrowed" Flying Car; rescued by a good-wizardly snatch team moments ahead of Voldemort's clutches). Or the "payload" is what happens on the way - characters introduced on the Express, or train stopped for searching by Dementors. The exception that may or may not prove the rule is the last book (which I don't know too well having only read it once, and with a mounting sense of it being like the final Star Wars film - its a bit disappointing, but I've gotta get to the end of the story. So maybe I'm missing stuff.). What I remember about that last book is a lot of Harry, Ron and Hermionie in a tent working out their relationships, struggling with being the responsible grownups, and generally not getting on very well with their quest until helped out by the mysterious stag. Its very psychological, as I remember it. The tent could be "scene: On a Moor, in Hermionie's tent." and it doesn't matter where they are camped. Keep Calm and Carry Ron, as usual.
I suspect Terry Pratchett has given some thought to where Ank-Morpok is with respect to the Ramtops and so on. I believe one can buy Discworld atlases. But again I recall his stories as taking place in set locations. Journeys between mostly take place either "off-camera" or as a series of episodes. From what I recall, the Narnia books are often very similar. The stories are often a series of episodes. If there is a journey (Witch in the Wardrobe, Dawn Treader, Silver Chair ) there is either no map , or - in my paperback of Dawn Trader a completely useless sketch one which conveys little more than a list of ports called at. Maybe ther eis also a sense, arising from these being Children's books that some "grown-up" (Beaver, Puddleglum) will do the navigating. Text descriptions wil be enough for the kids.
Somewhere (probably on this site!) I read the idea that the terrain of Middle-earth is a character in itself. I don't mean only in the Carhadras way with hints of bits of it being sentient. I mean that distances and physical barriers play a big part in the more mature tales. In LOT, for example, one recurring hazard is the distances the company has to cross without being caught. Conversely, its vital that, at the start of the tale, Sauron does not yet have much organization west of the Misty Mountains (too far from his base, Gondor in his way), or it would be very difficult to come up with plausible plots where he doesn't win too quickly!
Am i right in thinking this level of geographical maturity took Tolkien a while (I think I've read about him having trouble reconciling the length of the journey to Rivendell in the Hobbit, with the same journey in LOTR)? That wold square - The Hobbit is a linear series of episodes, so teh geography can be relaxed. The Fellowship of the Ring is a complete contrast - the difficulties of making the journey while being hunted by black riders has become serious plot stuff.
Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 21 2013, 1:02pm
Post #21 of 93
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Did someone say "maps"? Oh, this cartophile is all over them.
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Always great to read your posts, Telain! I hope my answers will do justice to the points you raise.
1. Overall, I love the Beleriand map because it gives identity to this land-as-a-character in the story. It's not just a big green country with some rivers, mountains, and the usual. It's a whole made up of distinct parts, almost like organs in a body, and they all work together and contribute something. It's significant that Morgoth slices them off one by one after the Elves have enriched them with their Elvishness. The Ruin of Beleriand is not just the ruin of the Elvish kingdoms, or Orcs butchering trees, it's the breaking of the spirit of an enchanted last, which isn't holy like Valinor, but is more exalted than the rest of Middle-earth. Which is why the Noldor never bother leaving it, and which is also why other Moriquendi are drawn to it and don't leave once they get there. (Even the discouraged Nandor don't depart after they lose their leader in a bad defeat; they become hidden Elves of Ossiriand, but not emigrants.) If you find Beleriand, you seem to fall in love with it.
2. On a practical level, the maps are necessary for me to sort out who's who and where they are, and what role their kingdoms play in the opposition to Morgoth.
3. If I were to criticize the map, I'd agree with Wiz and Mac that Beleriand seems a little too conveniently constructed and is military in nature. It seems like a giant fortress with layers of defense (Medieval castles were built that way) against a great external threat. Isn't it handy to have all these mountain ranges facing north with only a few strategic gaps in them? But it makes the story work.
4. I'll agree with others that Valinor and Morgoth's realm seem amorphous, and that's just as well, since they're Ainur-territories. On first read, I really wanted a map of Valinor, but decided that would diminish its fairy-tale feel.
5. "...and Finrod became the overlord of all the Elves of Beleriand between Sirion and the sea, save only in the Falas." So, not all the way to the sea, then, or, what is the extent of "the Falas" exactly?
I take that to mean his realm extends south to the Bay of Balar (Arvernien), at least in this chapter, but later it doesn't work, since Nargothrond is clearly a smaller realm located around its capital. But Thingol was accounted High King of Beleriand, and much of it was empty, so Finrod could equivalently be overlord of largely empty spaces outside the core of his realm.
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sador
Half-elven
May 21 2013, 1:06pm
Post #22 of 93
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From The Mirror of Galadriel:
"He [Celeborn] has dwelt in the West since the days of dawn, and I have dwelt with him years uncounted; for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and togather through the ages of the world we have fought the long defeat."
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 21 2013, 1:09pm
Post #23 of 93
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Nevrast seems a cool place to me just because it is surrounded by mountains on all sides (like Gondolin), and its geography suggests to me that had Turgon stayed there, maybe he could have absorbed the refugees from Hithlum and held out against Morgoth for awhile. Otherwise, it just seems to presage Gondolin.
I grew up in the mountains of Colorado, and our valley had the visual appearance of a triangular perimeter of 3 distinct mountain ranges: chalky white cliffs to the north, red sandstone to the southwest, and a large blue mountain and its foothills to the east. On a map, the triangle isn't so neat, but just living there and looking around, it felt like we were hemmed in on all 3 sides by these different ranges with different personalities. Hence Nevrast never seemed an anomaly to me, though Mordor always did: it's just too convenient that it's only open to the east. But I think it's said somewhere that Sauron was able to raise the mountains in that manner, or make them higher. (Not sure of the reference to that.)
Which of the landscapes captured your imagination? What about them drew you in? Did some of them remind you of real world places you have experienced (or imagined)? What comparisons to real world places seem obvious to you?
Honestly, I'd like to get on board Thorondor Charter Eagles and fly all over the place since each realm has its own identity. What I'd most like to see are the towers and cities. I wish there were more. What seems unrealistic is that the Elves in Hithlum just seemed to live there and only built a single tower in the mountain pass. I want more Gondolins, Menegroths, Minas Tiriths, and Nargothronds! I want to visit the Dwarf cities too. Falas had two walled havens plus a tower. Why didn't the other realms build more? The SoF seemed to build only on a small, dull scale. So I don't think people modify their landscapes enough to leave an imprint on it, though I also think Tolkien only tells us what he needs to for the sake of the story, and that there were probably far more interesting abodes that we never hear about.
The Taur-Im-Duinath huge forest to the south always seems creepy to me, like a Mirkwood; wouldn't want to go there.
Who is better defined by their choice of settlement? Did you get a better sense of a particular character because of the landscape they settled in?
I like Nargothrond and Gondolin for the splendor that matches their rulers, and Nevrast for having the best fusion of Noldor and Sindar--it speaks well of Turgon. It's also the only Noldor settlement by the Sea, which shows Turgon's affinity to Ulmo, and also makes it seem that of all of them, Turgon most wanted to look back to Valinor, all of which reflects well upon Turgon for me.
I'm surprised that Caranthir dwells by Lake Helevorn. For a dark character, I'd expect him to be perched on top of some windswept, uninviting hilltop. Dwelling by a lake sounds like a pleasant thing to do. Maybe he had his good moments.
What is it about open hillsides that attract Noldor and forest/riversides that attract Sindar; why do these peoples choose these landscapes?
The Sindar are the more wild of the races, less sophisticated, more in tune with nature, and less likely to alter it. The Noldor are more inclined to build on things like hills and alter the landscape as the more industrial race. Similar to Hollin, where Legolas seems surprised that the trees don't remember the Noldor, only the stones: "...deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone."
Did anyone else like the character comparison of the rivers Gelion and Sirion? I like how they are given personal pronouns and contrasted in strength. They're not just rivers but additional characters (if passive ones) in the saga of Beleriand's rise and fall.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 21 2013, 1:12pm
Post #24 of 93
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But I'd say she's the exception to the rule.
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Maciliel
Valinor
May 21 2013, 1:20pm
Post #25 of 93
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maps of harry potter and narnia
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(gently and respectfully points to some maps...)
actually, in harry potter, a map plays a +hugely+ important plot role in several books, as well as being a wonderful and imaginative device:
the marauder's map.
in the chronicles of narnia, there are less detailed maps than those of middle-earth, but they are delightful, nonetheless (courtesy of pauline baynes). they are not merely decorative, but give a sense of what natural defenses aslan has given narnia.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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