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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
the arkenstone is a sphere
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jimmyfenn
Rohan


May 18 2013, 2:16pm

Post #1 of 28 (1348 views)
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the arkenstone is a sphere Can't Post

reading the hobbit the other day it mentions the arkenstone is a sphere/globe cant remember which!

so the film got it wrong? have i missed some further explanation...would it look to much like a palantir, could the arkenstone have been one of the lost palantirs? would reason why all the dwarf kings get corrupted!

"You Tolkien to me?!" - Hobbit de Niro


Barrow-Wight
Rohan


May 18 2013, 2:29pm

Post #2 of 28 (780 views)
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I Always Assumed [In reply to] Can't Post

Some fans think it's a silmaril there's not much info but here's a few links

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Arkenstone

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Silmaril

http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Palant%C3%ADri


Ardamírë
Valinor


May 18 2013, 2:30pm

Post #3 of 28 (792 views)
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Arkenstone [In reply to] Can't Post

No, it can't be anything already made, because it's mentioned that the dwarves fashioned it themselves. Honestly, if it weren't for that one description, I'd be convinced that it was a silmaril. As it is, though, it can't be. And I don't think anyone would find a palantir and reshape it either.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




DanielLB
Immortal


May 18 2013, 2:33pm

Post #4 of 28 (679 views)
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Agreed - and I Smaug certainly couldn't have sat on it for so long without suffering some torment! / [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ardamírë
Valinor


May 18 2013, 2:37pm

Post #5 of 28 (697 views)
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It could have been buried. [In reply to] Can't Post

But ultimately, no, it wasn't a silmaril. It's too bad though, because I think it would have been a great way to tie the two stories together.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Grey Havens


May 18 2013, 6:16pm

Post #6 of 28 (567 views)
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in movie lore noone states that it couldn´t be a Silmaril [In reply to] Can't Post

So when PJ make the Silmarilion movies it coulb be awesome to tie it allXD

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!


malickfan
Gondor

May 18 2013, 8:08pm

Post #7 of 28 (568 views)
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John Rateliff goes into lengthy detail answering this very question in The History of The Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

And he conclues that it could very well be a silmaril-in the books original context-The Elvenking (i.e Thingol) The Necromancer, the lands of Faere to the east are were all supposedly lifted from the book of lost tales/'26 Quenta Silmaril, and if you accept his theories there is nothing to say Tolkien didn't intend the Arkenstone to be a renamned Silmaril in the hobbit.

I like to view it as a possibilty, since one of the Silmail's was thrown into a dark cavern in the earth, you never know (Though I am completely opposed to PJ 'adapting' The Silmarillion)...

‘As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said ‘All is now ready.’

Perhaps the most fascinating Individual in Middle Earth



Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 18 2013, 8:08pm

Post #8 of 28 (531 views)
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The Arkenstone is very like a Silmaril [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien's description of the Arkenstone makes it seem very much like a Silmaril:


Quote

"The Arkenstone! The Arkenstone!" murmured Thorin in the dark, half dreaming with his chin upon his knees. "It was like a globe with a thousand facets; it shone like silver in the firelight, like water in the sun, like snow under the stars, like rain upon the Moon!"



And, when Bilbo finds the gem:

Quote

The great jewel shone before his feet of its own inner light, and yet, cut and fashioned by the dwarves, who had dug it from the heart of the mountain long ago, it took all light that fell upon it and changed it into ten thousand sparks of white radiance shot with glints of the rainbow.



No wonder that there has been so much speculation on this topic.

Btw, Globe, sphere, orb are all pretty much interchangeable.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


boldog
Rohan


May 18 2013, 8:56pm

Post #9 of 28 (512 views)
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even though it was chucked in a chasm....... [In reply to] Can't Post

How the hell did it end up in the far east where erebor is? I always supposed that maedhros threw it in a chasm all the way in beleriand that was hence formed by the war of wrath. When beleriand fell it too was lost underground, under the ocean. There is no evidence of volcanic movement under erebor so I can't see how it could have travelled that far.
Besides, I don't like the concept of dwarves having a silmaril, it is far too important and powerful for dwarves to have a hold of. It belongs in the first age and no where else!

"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"


Ardamírë
Valinor


May 18 2013, 10:18pm

Post #10 of 28 (481 views)
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Well I suppose that's true. [In reply to] Can't Post

Well sure, the movies can do whatever the heck they want (i.e. - Azog, Nazgul tombs). But that doesn't make it canonical. The fact of the matter is that the Arkenstone is not a Silmaril. Here are the particular quotes:

First regarding the Silmarils...

Quote
...not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. Like the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.


Then about the Arkenstone (as Otaku quoted earlier)...

Quote
The great jewel shone before his feet of its own inner light, and yet, cut and fashioned by the dwarves, who had dug it from the heart of the mountain long ago, it took all light that fell upon it and changed it into ten thousand sparks of white radiance shot with glints of the rainbow.


As malickfan says above, the idea was basically lifted from Tolkien's version of The Silmarillion at the time. But as it is now, the Arkenstone cannot be a Silmaril.

And please, no Silmarillion movies by Jackson.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 18 2013, 10:41pm

Post #11 of 28 (465 views)
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Hold on there, Baba-Louie! [In reply to] Can't Post

I never stated that the Arkenstone was a Silmaril! I only noted a strong (possibliy intentional) resemblance. Tolkien might have considered making the Arkenstone a Silmaril, just as he might have once considered making the Elvenking be Thingol Greycloak rather than a later cousin.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


painjoiker
Grey Havens


May 19 2013, 12:43am

Post #12 of 28 (410 views)
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You may consider that, [In reply to] Can't Post

this detail could be a small "mistake" by Tolkien?
Even Tolkien wasn't perfect (even though he was closer to perfection than anyone before or after), and some small details may have slipped from his mind

Vocalist in the progressive metal band Renamed.


Brethil
Half-elven


May 19 2013, 1:05am

Post #13 of 28 (389 views)
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Agreed Ardamire [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But as it is now, the Arkenstone cannot be a Silmaril.




Would agree with the other quotes used from Ch 13, but would also add that as it sits alone it is seen by Bilbo as a "little globe of pallid light". Nothing pallid about a Silmaril! Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Ardamírë
Valinor


May 19 2013, 1:08am

Post #14 of 28 (390 views)
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Of course it's possible [In reply to] Can't Post

But I find that to be a huge stretch. It's much easier to just take the text as what it says rather than flippantly disregarding one or the other as a mistake. You could then do that with anything you felt like. Besides that, there are other reasons it's probably not a silmaril. For instance, why would everyone be willing to bury it with Thorin. There were wars and kin-slayings over the silmarils in the First Age. I can't imagine everyone in the Third Age just deciding to leave it lie buried in Erebor.

No, it's much easier to just take the texts as face value.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


May 19 2013, 1:10am

Post #15 of 28 (387 views)
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Another excellent reason [In reply to] Can't Post

The Silmarils were made from the light of the Two Trees. The sun and moon are just lesser lights, so if the Arkenstone is even less, it can't be a Silmaril.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Grey Havens


May 19 2013, 8:41am

Post #16 of 28 (334 views)
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easy way [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that if they make the Silmarilion movies show the silmarils alike to the arkenstone so is the audience who decides. They woulnt need to explain or state nothing and perhaps the silmaril loses power with time(ages)

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true!


painjoiker
Grey Havens


May 19 2013, 12:13pm

Post #17 of 28 (298 views)
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Its power/light could have diminished over time [In reply to] Can't Post

We don't know what have happened to it!
And I don't think it is a stretch to think that detail was a slip, because he wrote The Hobbit first and after that he wrote about the silmarils and put in similarities to the arkenstone and "forgot" about the cutting and shaping Smile

Or, if we consider the possibility about diminishing power then it may have been possible to shape it Wink

One other possible explanation is that the equipment have become much better, and that they could not shape the silmarils in The First Age due to bad equipment, but during the late Second Age the equipment had become much better and made it possible to shape them? The comment about "yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda." could be more symbolic as a reference to the equipment rather than the silmaril itself

Vocalist in the progressive metal band Renamed.


Bombadil
Half-elven


May 19 2013, 3:35pm

Post #18 of 28 (300 views)
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The Arkenstone? Bomby BOT... over 2 years ago [In reply to] Can't Post

Is bigger than a Golf Ball
but a little smaller than a
Tennis Ball...
So was quite SurPrized
when the Movie came out?

Well, Bomby will just HAVE
to buy a "Theatrical"....
Arkenstone!!

Cool,
Bomby Needs TWO!


Ardamírë
Valinor


May 20 2013, 3:03am

Post #19 of 28 (238 views)
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The Silmarillion isn't getting made [In reply to] Can't Post

so all of this is really just idle chit-chat. Personally, I wouldn't want any insinuation that the Arkenstone is a Silmaril simply because it isn't. If someone wants to go against the text and believe that it is, that's their prerogative. But really, it shouldn't be up to the audience to decide when the author has already determined that it isn't.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Ardamírë
Valinor


May 20 2013, 3:09am

Post #20 of 28 (230 views)
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The Silmarillion's progression [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien actually started working on what became The Silmarillion somewhere around 1916 - over 20 years before The Hobbit was ever published. So no, I don't think it was a slip.

Honestly, I like the idea of a Silmaril turning up again after about 6000 years, but I have to go with what Tolkien actually wrote here, and the fact remains that the two texts are contradictory. Also, thinking about it, I kind of like it that the dwarves try to recreate their own version of the Silmarils. It's just that it ended up as a lesser work. I think it's poetic and symbolic of a deeper sense of the diminishing of the ancient world by the time of the end of the Third Age.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




malickfan
Gondor

May 20 2013, 9:27am

Post #21 of 28 (223 views)
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I sincerely hope a Silmarillion film never sees the light of day [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd much rather see Roverrandom or Farmer Giles of Ham adapated as TV Films

‘As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said ‘All is now ready.’

Perhaps the most fascinating Individual in Middle Earth



Ardamírë
Valinor


May 20 2013, 2:23pm

Post #22 of 28 (180 views)
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Roverrandom [In reply to] Can't Post

I would love to see that! I've only read it once a very long time ago, but I remember loving it. I think i'll have to give it another quick read sometime this summer.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel




Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


May 20 2013, 6:05pm

Post #23 of 28 (171 views)
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I won't lie [In reply to] Can't Post

For me the Arkenstone was one of the biggest let-downs in terms of design in the films, along with Radagast's bird-crap and Azog's general look. It just didn't convince me that it was worthy of being treasured to that degree by the Dwarves: I would have preferred a more globe-like look. I initially disliked the version created by Badali Jewellery but I've grown to like that interpretation more and more since its release.

"A single dream is more powerful than a thousand realities."-J.R.R.Tolkien

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."-Gandalf

(This post was edited by Radagast-Aiwendil on May 20 2013, 6:05pm)


Na Vedui
Rohan

May 20 2013, 11:01pm

Post #24 of 28 (162 views)
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Arkenstone [In reply to] Can't Post

On balance, I don't think the Arkenstone is one of the Silmarils (or a Palantir), but it has a kinship with the Silmarils in the way people react to it. One of the threads running through Tolkien's work seems to be a tension or danger surrounding craftsmanship - the skill to transform parts of the physical world into something else.
It's an essential part of life for people who are inclined that way (the Noldorin Elves like Feanor; the Dwarves) yet carries with it the peril of getting too attached to what you've made - and if what you make is beautiful and splendid, other people want it too. Feanor won't break his Silmarils to restore the light of the two Trees after the Trees are destroyed, and wages terrible war on anyone who tries to take them; Thorin goes off the rails because he wants the heirloom of his people too much.
Saruman is, I think, part of this complex too - he is the "crafty" wizard who goes a stage further again - instead of working with the grain of the world to create beauty, he is lured by the power that such practical craft-skills give and no longer cares what he destroys in the process; he has "a mind of metal and wheels". (Apparently the "Saru-" element of his name is an Old English word relating to cunning in making.)
Perhaps also this tension around creativity relates somewhat to Tolkien's own tensions about the place of his "sub-creation" Middle-earth in the life of a devout Catholic.


Ardamírë
Valinor


May 21 2013, 2:37am

Post #25 of 28 (136 views)
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Sub-creation [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you think that Aule is an alternative to this time of sub-creation story? When confronted by Eru, he is willing to destroy the dwarves. I think it shows his ability to let go which is absent from the others that you mention.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall.
As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last.
For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men,
it is bitter to receive." -Arwen Undómiel



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