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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Silmarillion Chapter 13: Of the Return of the Noldor
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noWizardme
Tol Eressea


May 16 2013, 6:24pm

Post #101 of 133 (578 views)
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"The Huorns" sounds like a French jazz ensemble [In reply to] Can't Post

...which idea led me to start this game on Main
http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=605281#605281

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


telain
Rohan

May 17 2013, 1:35pm

Post #102 of 133 (573 views)
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late is the hour in which Telain responds [In reply to] Can't Post

For a race that has lived in the peace of Valinor, these Elves seem to know how to wage war! Should we be surprised by this?

For some reason, as yet lodged in my subconscious, it does not surprise me. It should, though, and the many responses to this very interesting question attest to that. Perhaps it is the build up surrounding Feanor that is enough for me to not be surprised. I keep thinking that we really don't have a good idea of how much time passes in Valinor. Perhaps from the time they first learned how to make weapons to the time of the Dagor-nuin-Giliath is more than enough to learn and perfect military tactics and strategy.

Another possibility is that Morgoth's hosts are simply too easily quelled; they have nothing to fight for, being not much more than slaves. And the Noldor still have the Light of Valinor upon them, which presumably would have further weakened the resolve of Morgoth's host.

Feanor Dies in the Darkness Before the Dawn

I think that Feanor's fiery spirit and the Sun could not metaphorically coexist. That is why he (narratively speaking) must die before the Sun rises. I also think it is a (quite beautiful) literary device because the Sun rising signals a dawn of a New Age and Feanor was so clearly of the Old Age -- in fact, he might be considered one of the defining characters of said Old Age -- that he simply could not be present for the new one, lest it also be tainted by his. er…, greatness.

So now his Sons must figure out how to deal with their father's last "request". I find it very interesting that the very next paragraph following his death is the meeting of the Noldor and the Moriquendi. This meeting signals to me the path the Elves must now follow -- instead of sundering, they must start coming together. They have a common foe; regardless of Feanor, Melkor/Morgoth detests all Elves and is creating armies to rid the world of them. War is upon them, whether they wish it or not.

On the Kinslaying
I think there is so much regret here. Feanor is gone. The thought that they could abandon their father's last request must have flitted through their minds -- and I would say flitted and found fertile ground in Maedhros' mind -- and now they are meeting the closer kin to those (some of) them slaughtered at Alqualonde. But there is a bigger problem (Morgoth) to contend with, and the hosts of the Noldor are not even in perfect accord. It is a rather angst-ridden time for the Noldor and the Moriquendi have no knowledge of the Kinslaying as yet (that I am aware of anyway). I think they still see the Noldor as the emissaries of the Valar.

Epic Heroism of Fingon

I do think it is believable that Manwe sends the Eagles. The Noldor have lived with the Valar, again for really how long I can't say, but I think the Valar do see the Noldor as (rather badly behaved) children and they feel a responsibility for their Fall. If the pain Feanor has caused is to be healed, then his Sons have to start that healing and Maedhros is probably the best candidate to start the process.

Two of Feanor's sons
Oh, Caranthir, honestly. I suppose if Carathir can't get along with other Elves, he could try to get along with a people the Elves have always had a bit of a problem with.

I get the sense that a bit of Feanor is present in all of his sons. While there is isn't enough to speak for all of them it appears that Caranthir gets the Balrog's share of the negativity and harshness, while Maedhros gets some of the passion and daring evidenced by putting himself (and his host) directly in harm's way. And Maedhros I believe gets a bit of his father's way with words, but in a more positive sense; his response to Thingol is truly inspired.

The Oath Never Sleeps
I don't believe the Oath ever really sleeps (and not just because I have read ahead…). But I do think Feanor's death and the banding together against a common foe begin the healing. I believe there is a period of time where the Noldor want Feanor's shadow to be lifted, but that does not mean it has vanished like the smoke of his fea. Wanting peace and a coming together of all Firstborn is an important step, but have they learned nothing from the Valar in responding to Melkor/Morgoth? I think that is why Ulmo appears to Finrod and Turgon, they do not want the Noldor -- or Middle-earth -- to suffer the same devastation as (the Trees of) Valinor. That, and the fact that Ulmo is always more invested in Middle-earth...

Testing the Waters
I think the time after the Dagor-Argaleb and the sortie at Hithlum is where we see that the Elves (and Morgoth) are still learning how to wage war -- and learning how each other responds to certain tactics.

My final thought on this chapter -- and this very excellent post! -- is that we start to see the nobility and greatness of the Noldor has described earlier in the Silmarilion. The difference here is that the Noldor are tested on Middle-earth grounds, not on Valinoran grounds. What I mean is, perhaps the Valar were wrong to lure the Elves to Valinor and to expect all of them to live forever merrily in the company of much Higher Powers. Feanor's biggest mistake (in my opinion, at this very moment as I write) is that he tried to work with the (Reflected?) Light Imperishable -- that is not for Children of Eru to do. Once the Elves go back to Middle-earth, and work with the things wrought for them by the Valar, then they become truly great. Tolkien, as always, makes "place" a very important aspect of identity and it seems to me that the Noldor returning to their birth-home is where they find their true selves.

Thank you, Brethil, for an amazing discussion!


CuriousG
Valinor


May 17 2013, 5:57pm

Post #103 of 133 (543 views)
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Elves, war, and flying the coop [In reply to] Can't Post

1. RE: Elves becoming master tacticians, it never surprised me either after multiple readings, only when Brethil brought it up. When I reread the section about Melkor spreading discontent among the Noldor, it's said that they make weapons but keep them hidden, and only wear defensive gear (shields only, I think) in public with emblems of their house (accessorizing). That's why Feanor pulling his sword out and menacing Fingolfin was such a big shock, since swords hadn't been seen in public before. Which means the Noldor couldn't have had regular military maneuvers to learn the art of war.

But I go back to Celegorm being a follower of Orome, who never tired of hunting and fighting Melkor's minions, so he would have learned from those forays and could have instructed his family about tactics.

2.

In Reply To
I think that Feanor's fiery spirit and the Sun could not metaphorically coexist.

That would help explain what seems to me his premature departure from the story, and it seems Tolkien definitely wanted him gone for thematic reasons. Just plot-wise, it seems odd to me.

7.

In Reply To
My final thought on this chapter -- and this very excellent post! -- is that we start to see the nobility and greatness of the Noldor has described earlier in the Silmarilion.

I like how you phrase that. There's a certain lassitude to life in Valinor in spite of some of the Elvish accomplishments there. It's when they set foot in Middle-earth that they seem to come alive and take on a whole new energy and heroism they never had before. Maybe they never needed it, so it testifies to their latent nobility. And explains why so many were willing to follow Feanor, including Galadriel, not because they wanted the Silmarils back, but because they had grown up with the Valar-parents and were ready to head out into the world to make their own fame and fortune. Which they did for several centuries. I wouldn't take their success in creating new kingdoms for granted; they could have failed. And they could have devolved into more kinslayings between themselves and to dislodge Thingol, but didn't.

I suppose this could all be due to the narrative, which gives us very little information about individuals in Valinor aside from Feanor, Finwe, and Miriel. The others are just placeholders in the genealogy. Maybe Finrod, Fingon, Turgon, and Maedhros did heroic and admirable things in Valinor that we don't get to read about. Or maybe they didn't.
For the most part, the early common cause against Morgoth brings out the best in them.


Brethil
Half-elven


May 17 2013, 6:23pm

Post #104 of 133 (552 views)
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Teldaquent I name thee - the last word is a welcome guest! [In reply to] Can't Post


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Feanor Dies in the Darkness Before the Dawn
I think that Feanor's fiery spirit and the Sun could not metaphorically coexist. That is why he (narratively speaking) must die before the Sun rises. I also think it is a (quite beautiful) literary device because the Sun rising signals a dawn of a New Age and Feanor was so clearly of the Old Age -- in fact, he might be considered one of the defining characters of said Old Age -- that he simply could not be present for the new one, lest it also be tainted by his. er…, greatness. I see I am perhaps the lone holdout for redemption via the Sun for Feanor! This is a great metaphor you've used, the lynchpin of the changing Ages represented by the death of the blazing Feanor, replaced by another blaze. I just have this sneaking sort of desire to see Feanor saved somehow. Sigh. Not gonna happen. On the Kinslaying
I think there is so much regret here. Feanor is gone. The thought that they could abandon their father's last request must have flitted through their minds -- and I would say flitted and found fertile ground in Maedhros' mind -- and now they are meeting the closer kin to those (some of) them slaughtered at Alqualonde. But there is a bigger problem (Morgoth) to contend with, and the hosts of the Noldor are not even in perfect accord. It is a rather angst-ridden time for the Noldor and the Moriquendi have no knowledge of the Kinslaying as yet (that I am aware of anyway). ***I think they still see the Noldor as the emissaries of the Valar. ***
Yes, that seems to be the understanding, and whether it is spoken (don't think so) or if tacitly the Noldor just sort of say Yeah, let's go with that...it is certainly a lie of omission. What's sort of uncomfortable about it is that they get all this esteem from the Moriquendi based on that 'lie' and personally it would make my skin crawl a bit. Some Moriqendi would say "good morning" and I would probably just crack and spit the whole story out.

Two of Feanor's sons
Oh, Caranthir, honestly. I suppose if Carathir can't get along with other Elves, he could try to get along with a people the Elves have always had a bit of a problem with. I get the sense that a bit of Feanor is present in all of his sons. While there is isn't enough to speak for all of them it appears that Caranthir gets the Balrog's share of the negativity and harshness, while Maedhros gets some of the passion and daring evidenced by putting himself (and his host) directly in harm's way. And Maedhros I believe gets a bit of his father's way with words, but in a more positive sense; his response to Thingol is truly inspired. Wonder if we see a bit of Nerdanal in Maehdros (once Feanor is gone?) Yes, I agree, Caranthir is all Feanor without the brilliance, just the itchy, scratchy abrasiveness.

The Oath Never Sleeps
I think that is why Ulmo appears to Finrod and Turgon, they do not want the Noldor -- or Middle-earth -- to suffer the same devastation as (the Trees of) Valinor. That, and the fact that Ulmo is always more invested in Middle-earth... More invested, and more in the know. He clearly has a long-term plan here, and is looking far ahead.

My final thought on this chapter -- and this very excellent post! -- is that we start to see the nobility and greatness of the Noldor has described earlier in the Silmarilion. The difference here is that the Noldor are tested on Middle-earth grounds, not on Valinoran grounds. What I mean is, perhaps the Valar were wrong to lure the Elves to Valinor and to expect all of them to live forever merrily in the company of much Higher Powers. Feanor's biggest mistake (in my opinion, at this very moment as I write) is that he tried to work with the (Reflected?) Light Imperishable -- that is not for Children of Eru to do. Once the Elves go back to Middle-earth, and work with the things wrought for them by the Valar, then they become truly great. Tolkien, as always, makes "place" a very important aspect of identity and it seems to me that the Noldor returning to their birth-home is where they find their true selves. So true, and going back to his titling the rebellion chapter as "Flight" of the Noldor. The chicks left the roost! I think their true greatness is indeed to be found in Arda, and the mistake was both Feanor's and the Valar's in falling so in love with the Silmarils.

Thank you, Brethil, for an amazing discussion! (Thanks back Telain!)


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


May 17 2013, 6:29pm

Post #105 of 133 (569 views)
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Elves behaving as Elves [In reply to] Can't Post


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Which they did for several centuries. I wouldn't take their success in creating new kingdoms for granted; they could have failed. And they could have devolved into more kinslayings between themselves and to dislodge Thingol, but didn't.




Yes they are using their natural skills finally, and that sense of stewardship over Arda must be very 'right' to them somehow. They are finally doing what they are meant to do - develop and love Arda! So exactly as you say CG they behave must closer to their truer ideals, and handle conflict in a much better way than the way the unnatural scenarios prompted them to do.

Its a shame that for the Noldor that sense of longing and loss never really seems to leave them.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 17 2013, 7:18pm

Post #106 of 133 (570 views)
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noldor longing and sense of loss not leaving them [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i know we've spoken at length about the elves' belonging on the mainland, and not in valinor... but even though they can physically coexist with the valar on the blessed isle, it doesn't appear to have been good for them. perhaps living with the valar in that way is just as perilous for the eldar as it is for the edain, just in a different way.

if they had just stayed in middle earth, under the guidance of the valar, they could have been happy builders and shepherds and nurturers. the valar still could have visited them, helped them with visions and such.

perhaps what they wound up creating on the mainland, as a reflection of aman, was really not as good as good or valuable as what they could have created on their own, without the ironic taint of the memory of the blessed realm.


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 17 2013, 7:22pm

Post #107 of 133 (566 views)
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nernandel as a decisive influence on maedhros.. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
[brethil]
Wonder if we see a bit of Nerdanal in Maehdros (once Feanor is gone?) Yes, I agree, Caranthir is all Feanor without the brilliance, just the itchy, scratchy abrasiveness.

[/brethil]



i'm thinking nernandel had great influence over maedhros ( see my take upthread ).

i think, in maedhros, we see nernandel's legacy of wisdom, and a bit of what feanor and his house could have been.


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


May 17 2013, 8:21pm

Post #108 of 133 (544 views)
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Indeed, I agree here Telpemairo [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To
[brethil]
Wonder if we see a bit of Nerdanal in Maehdros (once Feanor is gone?) Yes, I agree, Caranthir is all Feanor without the brilliance, just the itchy, scratchy abrasiveness.



i'm thinking nernandel had great influence over maedhros ( see my take upthread ).
i think, in maedhros, we see nernandel's legacy of wisdom, and a bit of what feanor and his house could have been.




And similar to your scenario (extremely well expressed BTW), Maehdros feels bound to Feanor (perhaps something also of good in him - that loyalty) and thus follows him ... but when the influence of Feanor is removed more of that sense can kick in. I wonder if Maehdros was the last surviving SoF (without any brotherly influence) if the Oath could have just slipped away.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


telain
Rohan

May 17 2013, 10:50pm

Post #109 of 133 (516 views)
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thrilled... [In reply to] Can't Post

to have been Brethil-named! Telain Teldaquent!


Quote
I see I am perhaps the lone holdout for redemption via the Sun for Feanor! ... I just have this sneaking sort of desire to see Feanor saved somehow.


I would say that the Sun is, in a way, for Feanor, but perhaps more redemption for his sons. You aren't the only one that wishes Feanor could have (will be somehow?) saved. He is an amazing, tragic figure. If we didn't feel any sympathy for him, his passing would have gone unnoticed. Perhaps he finds peace in the Halls of Mandos, ... making bright shiny objects ...

And I think this same feeling is why his sons react the way they do. They still hold to the Oath (even as it slumbers) because Feanor -- for all his faults (and they are many) -- was also an attractive, charismatic figure. They feel compelled to follow his dying wish just as some of us hope for some salvation for him.

I mean, it wasn't entirely his fault, right? Crazy


telain
Rohan

May 17 2013, 10:57pm

Post #110 of 133 (545 views)
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and that is interesting... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
perhaps what they wound up creating on the mainland, as a reflection of aman, was really not as good as good or valuable as what they could have created on their own, without the ironic taint of the memory of the blessed realm.


My imagination wheels are starting to churn... I think this idea is particularly poignant given that we don't know much about what the Moriquendi create in Middle-earth -- apart from Thingall. But wait! His great accomplishment is also Higher-Power inspired. And while I won't say anything about what may or may not happen to said accomplishment, methinks it may have a tragic conclusion.

Perhaps this is the message -- and why later Gandalf is so insistent that he not get over-involved in Middle-earth (just a little nudge out the door...). When the Powers That Be start meddling in the affairs of Middle-earth, things are apt to take a left turn.


telain
Rohan

May 17 2013, 11:11pm

Post #111 of 133 (534 views)
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Did we turn the oven off before we left for Valinor? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
And explains why so many were willing to follow Feanor, including Galadriel, not because they wanted the Silmarils back, but because they had grown up with the Valar-parents and were ready to head out into the world to make their own fame and fortune. Which they did for several centuries. I wouldn't take their success in creating new kingdoms for granted; they could have failed. And they could have devolved into more kinslayings between themselves and to dislodge Thingol, but didn't.


Once more our thought-ships sail in parallel directions! They do very well on their own in the big wide Middle-world. I especially like your pointing out that they could have knocked Thingol down a peg or two, but instead we just have Maedhros' fabulous rejoinder. I think many of them did follow Feanor because they wanted to stretch their legs a bit. And maybe some of them felt that Valinor wasn't quite the home it was supposed to be; maybe some of them felt they were supposed to do something else first...

I had forgotten about Celegorm. Probably because I have trouble with his name. I always think of "gormless," which isn't bad, (it is also, apparently a line of Swedish storage furniture ...) but also "corm". And the digression continues... Back to your point, I think Orome would have been an excellent teacher of said martial arts.


Brethil
Half-elven


May 17 2013, 11:26pm

Post #112 of 133 (545 views)
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The Wizards as a late bit of wisdom [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote

My imagination wheels are starting to churn... I think this idea is particularly poignant given that we don't know much about what the Moriquendi create in Middle-earth -- apart from Thingall. But wait! His great accomplishment is also Higher-Power inspired. And while I won't say anything about what may or may not happen to said accomplishment, methinks it may have a tragic conclusion.
Perhaps this is the message -- and why later Gandalf is so insistent that he not get over-involved in Middle-earth (just a little nudge out the door...). When the Powers That Be start meddling in the affairs of Middle-earth, things are apt to take a left turn.


So true, and the Wizards are sent with the proscription against showing their power openly or using force or fear (Saruman, getting his nails done, missed that meeting) against Men or Elves, only to guide and offer wisdom, except in extreme need.

(I'm open to Letter #156 for another post - inspired by Maciliel Telpemairo - so here is a tasty bit from JRRT:) "At this point in the fabulous history the purpose was precisely to limit and hinder their exhibition of 'power' on the physical plane, and that they should do what they were primarily sent for: train, advise, instruct, arouse the hearts and minds of those threatened by Sauron to a resistance with their own strengths: and not just to do the job for them."

Sounds like the Valar have done a lot of learning, haven't they ('bout time, eh?). Later in the same letter it is clear that Eru himself had a hand in the rebodying of Gandalf - so that makes me wonder: how much 'inspiration' might have come from Eru in the sending of the wizards, and on their mandate? Since he is quite aware of Gandalf's death and takes steps to return him to task.

A little dream given to some of the Valar? Did they all wake up and say hey, I had this cool dream of what we could do for Arda last night...

And yes, I think Thingol's weak point is his complacency because of his Maiar bride-queen. Yet some good comes of it: Idril, and Earandil. Is that why the paring was allowed? (And BTW glad you like the name!)

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on May 17 2013, 11:27pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


May 17 2013, 11:30pm

Post #113 of 133 (527 views)
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Okay Telian, ROFL now! [In reply to] Can't Post

"Did we turn the oven off before we left for Valinor?"

SmileSmileCoolCool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 18 2013, 3:04am

Post #114 of 133 (532 views)
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simpatico [In reply to] Can't Post

 
telain, i've expressed on other threads that what was driving the noldor back to the mainland was that they were being drawn back, because that's where they belonged.

feanor provided the spark (fittingly), but they weren't following him, per se, they were following their natures. the teleri and the vanyar didn't follow because they were in a sort of blissful dream. if they had feanors of their own, perhaps a featel and a feavan, they might have woken up, and bestirred themselves to travel back to the mainland.

the vanyar seem to have lost the most, despite the fact that they are depicted as the wisest and most elevated. all of them went to aman, and none of them went back. all of the potential they had to bring their gifts to bear on the making and the healing of middle earth came to naught. some of them returned for the war of wrath, but then they went back to aman, and that was it.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


elaen32
Gondor


May 18 2013, 5:23am

Post #115 of 133 (538 views)
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I totally agree, Maciliel [In reply to] Can't Post

Feanor provided the impetus, but essentially, the Noldor were returning "home" to where they should have been all along. I have often wondered what the Vanyar actually DID- they have infinite time and a "blissful" life, but do not seem to achieve much. The Noldor have their creations and the Teleri their ships (presumably they rebuilt some after the Kinslaying), but what do the Vanyar have, apart from singing? I love singing, but wouldn't want it to be the only thing I did for all eternity! Their existence almost seems to be a positive light version of the Nazgul "neither living nor dead"- while the Nazgul have a living hell, the Vanyar have a living heaven. Maybe, as mere mortals, we just cannot comprehend what the life in Aman must have been like, just as Tolkien, the devout Catholic might have felt that we could not comprehend the Kingdom of Heaven.
Just some musings....

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 18 2013, 10:56am

Post #116 of 133 (537 views)
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the ironic vanyar [In reply to] Can't Post

 
elaen, yes (!) just what did the vanyar +do+? in some ways, they seem remote and cold (yet golden), just as the valar are.

i find it ironic, given that the purpose of the eldar was to preserve and heal middle-earth, that the vanyar -- supposedly the most elevated of the bunch -- did not bring healing so much as destruction.

a host of them returned as warriors for the war of wrath. much destruction there. yet, totally arguable that the destruction was necessary to get rid of morgoth so middle-earth could be preserved, but nonetheless, the mission of the vanyarian elves was turned on its head -- their main role was as destroyers. presumably, as they made their way through the lands, some of their crew would have been tending to the wounded and things like that, but that would have been ancillary to the main mission (destruction, war).

i guess the war songs that they sang must have enriched the culture, and they probably wrote great poems about battles and such.

i get the feeling that tolkien didn't see them this way (but i do).


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Brethil
Half-elven


May 18 2013, 1:47pm

Post #117 of 133 (515 views)
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Excellent depiction of the Vanyar here [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Feanor provided the impetus, but essentially, the Noldor were returning "home" to where they should have been all along. I have often wondered what the Vanyar actually DID- they have infinite time and a "blissful" life, but do not seem to achieve much. The Noldor have their creations and the Teleri their ships (presumably they rebuilt some after the Kinslaying), but what do the Vanyar have, apart from singing? I love singing, but wouldn't want it to be the only thing I did for all eternity! Their existence almost seems to be a positive light version of the Nazgul "neither living nor dead"- while the Nazgul have a living hell, the Vanyar have a living heaven. Maybe, as mere mortals, we just cannot comprehend what the life in Aman must have been like, just as Tolkien, the devout Catholic might have felt that we could not comprehend the Kingdom of Heaven.
Just some musings....




Well stated point. And I agree with the idea that you and Maciliel Telpemairo have arrived at, that because of that circumstance their gifts - which are many - will be ungifted to Arda as well as undeveloped. Even recording deeds on Songs, if you aren't actually part of that world, is so removed from Life. So although JRRT refers to them as blessed and wise, they are sort of sterile in a way. Their skills are turned inward, and maybe though the singing and art please the Valar it isn't what they were created for.

Its almost a parallel to some of the ideas we have been touching on re: the Silmarils. That despite all the beauty and light, there is a deeper peril inherent (for all incarnate beings) living with 'too much' heavenly goodness.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


telain
Rohan

May 18 2013, 1:53pm

Post #118 of 133 (508 views)
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credit where it is due! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
telain, i've expressed on other threads that what was driving the noldor back to the mainland was that they were being drawn back, because that's where they belonged.


My apologies, Maciliel! I do try to remember who has posted what, but I often don't remember; and sometimes if I miss a day (or an hour, this board is so active at the moment!), I miss some (rather big) things. I hope you'll see it as a compliment... Many thought-ships moving in parallel directions...

Your further points about the Vanyar and Teleri having their own "Feanors": how disastrous would that have been (from one perspective!) Perhaps the Vanyar were the wisest because they 1)chose to stay in Valinor and 2)decided not to get too curious about RLIs... The Teleri are still a bit of a mystery to me in many ways.



Brethil
Half-elven


May 18 2013, 2:11pm

Post #119 of 133 (535 views)
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Teleri [In reply to] Can't Post


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Quote
The Teleri are still a bit of a mystery to me in many ways.




Yes they are a bit obscured. I find that JRRT refers to them as the chief silversmiths of Valinor, because they found gold and silver in their lands. We know about their ship-building as a skill, but of course ship-building itself is a huge clue as to their natures. One builds ships to travel in...were they gazing already towards Arda perhaps, before Feanor arrived? Thinking about relatives left behind?
Only a small number I think actually made the crossing; so many, including Thingol, stopped along the way instead. So I wonder if they clung to the shore and built their ships thinking about heading back to Arda some day, and maybe would have naturally done so without the Kinslaying.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 18 2013, 5:57pm

Post #120 of 133 (522 views)
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telain, telain, telain! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
telain, i've expressed on other threads that what was driving the noldor back to the mainland was that they were being drawn back, because that's where they belonged.


My apologies, Maciliel! I do try to remember who has posted what, but I often don't remember; and sometimes if I miss a day (or an hour, this board is so active at the moment!), I miss some (rather big) things. I hope you'll see it as a compliment... Many thought-ships moving in parallel directions...

Your further points about the Vanyar and Teleri having their own "Feanors": how disastrous would that have been (from one perspective!) Perhaps the Vanyar were the wisest because they 1)chose to stay in Valinor and 2)decided not to get too curious about RLIs... The Teleri are still a bit of a mystery to me in many ways.



telain, telain, telain! omigosh, omigosh, omigosh!

i +so+ did +not+ intend for my posting tone to be read as "corrective," or grumpy or what have you. i'm +so sorry+ i didn't realize my post might have come across that way! please forgive me, most sincerely.

this is what i was more aiming for...

telain: I think many of them did follow Feanor because they wanted to stretch their legs a bit. And maybe some of them felt that Valinor wasn't quite the home it was supposed to be; maybe some of them felt they were supposed to do something else first...

maciliel: (sees telain walking down a thought path that she is also on, is delighted to find a kindred thought-spirit, and pours telain a tall cup of miruvor) really?! me too! (prattles on about the thought)

i am +so+ sorry! i feel like we were unexpectedly waltzing together and i accidentally stepped on your feet, and you are apologizing to +me+ for +my+ clumsiness. +so sorry!+

yes, it would have been disastrous for the vanyar and the teleri to have their own feanors, but i meant more (again, looks like i was not precise enough) that if the vanyar and the teleri had their own someones with feanorian powers of oration (without the fiery self-destructiveness, perhaps they would have been bestirred to leave and head back, and that (imo) would have been a good thing, 'tho it probably would have also involved loss and pain and hardship.


cheers (and, again, apologies) --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


telain
Rohan

May 18 2013, 9:46pm

Post #121 of 133 (481 views)
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allow me to pour you a cup of miruvor... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and to thank you for the clarification! I didn't think it was meant to be grumpy, but I reread that one line and thought "oh, no! what if?!"

And so we continue waltzing, prattling, and thinking thoughts along the same elanor-strewn path! Excellent!

Who knows? Maybe a few solitary wanderlust-y Vanyar and/or Teleri made their way back to Middle-earth and did amazing things. The reason we don't know about it? Probably didn't involve tragedy, death, hardship, or iron-clad Oaths...

cheers, and agreeing to agree!


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 18 2013, 11:00pm

Post #122 of 133 (502 views)
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thanks, telain! : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
+love+ your thought re an independent vanya or teleri (not sure what the singular of teleri is) making her/his way back to the mainland... and doing good work without all the noldorian fuss (!).

i loved this thought of brethil tengwadil's....

[brethil tengwadil]
Yes they are a bit obscured. I find that JRRT refers to them as the chief silversmiths of Valinor, because they found gold and silver in their lands. We know about their ship-building as a skill, but of course ship-building itself is a huge clue as to their natures. One builds ships to travel in...were they gazing already towards Arda perhaps, before Feanor arrived? Thinking about relatives left behind?
[/brethil tengwadil]

...fascinating thought... did they build the ships to take them to the isle before it was dragged by ulmo (was it ulmo, or one of his assistants?) across the sea, or did they build their ships once the island was anchored and became tol eressea? it would be most odd to pour their souls into shipbuilding and not use them. perhaps they fished a lot, and their exploits seen on the reality series, "the most beautiful, most skilled, most immortal catch."

i'm so terribly interested in the folk we don't get much on... the vanyar, the teleri, the nandor, the numenoreans, the northern kingdoms, the haradrim (i always wonder... gods! you're fighting on the same side as +orcs+! doesn't that squick you out? make you want to switch sides?).

here's what i found in morgoth's ring today...


Quote

"Other names in song and tale are given to these peoples. The Vanyar are the Blessed Elves, and the Spear-elves, the Elves of the Air, the friends of the Gods, the Holy elves and the Immortal, and the Children of Ingwe; they are the Fair Folk and the White.

The Noldor are the Wise, and the Golden, the Valiant, the Sword-elves, the elves of the Earth, the Foes of Melkor, the Skilled of Hand, the Jewel-wrights, the Companions of Men, the Followers of Finwe.

The Teleri are the Foam-riders, the Singers of the Shore, the Free, and the Swift, and the Arrow-elves; they are the Elves of the Sea, the Ship-wrights, the Swanherds, the Gatherers of Pearl, the Blue Elves, the people of Olwe.

The Nandor are the Host of Dan, the Wood-elves, the Wandereres, the Axe-elves, the Green Elves and the Brown, the Hidden People; and those that came at last to Ossiriand are the Elves of the Seven Rivers, the Singers Unseen, the Kingless, the Weaponless, and the Lost Folk, for they are now no more.

The Sindar are the Lemberi, the Lingerers; they are the Friends of Osse, the Elves of the Twilight, the Silvern, the Enchanters, the Wards of Melian, the Kindred of Luthien, the people of Elwe."



this was not his final word on the elves, but part of their genesis through his writing. but it's still interesting to look at his earlier writings to get a feel for how he conceptualized them. note the different weapons for the different kindreds.

also, not sure if green elves are different from brown elves. i definitely think he's talking about more than one kind of elf in that paragraph, because he writes of the nandor as the "axe-elves," and then later in the paragraph he's writing about elves that he calls "the weaponless."

(note: don't take the fact that some elven kindreds get their own paragraph to help determine how many elf kinds he was describing; i broke the passage into paragraphs, to make it more readable here. he has some elves in their own paragraphs -- like the vanyar and the noldor -- and some elves all lumped together... nandor, sindar, etc.)


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on May 18 2013, 11:04pm)


elaen32
Gondor


May 18 2013, 11:26pm

Post #123 of 133 (473 views)
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Thanks for this Maciliel [In reply to] Can't Post

-really interesting and it sets out the Elven races in a way that had not occurred to me before. I was obviously a bit slow off the mark, but had not considered them related to the respective elements of Arda etcBlush I was asking Brethil yesterday about the HOME series and which ones to buy and read first. It sounds as though Morgoth's Ring is pretty interesting!

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Brethil
Half-elven


May 19 2013, 1:11am

Post #124 of 133 (496 views)
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Excellent post Telpemairo! [In reply to] Can't Post

This is great descriptions of the Elven societies as he was visualizing them. I like their differences a lot, and the character it gives all of them.

Good question on the Teleri: were the ships built of old, and they clung to their tradition as the Isle was pulled away? Or did they look across the water and thus begin building their ships, perhaps to sail close and return 'home', but some day to travel further, and maybe back to Arda? Fascinating question.

Thank you Telain for mentioning it and thank you Mac for posting more thoughts about it.

I have yet to replace Morgoth's Ring...I can't find too much else anywhere. Will keep reading.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 19 2013, 1:32am

Post #125 of 133 (486 views)
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my pleasure, elaen! : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i don't know if anyone else is noticing, but he assigns weapons and colors to each elf kindred...

vanyar -- spears, white
noldor -- swords, gold
teleri -- arrows, blue (like the wizards!)
nandor -- axes, green (and brown?)
sindar -- no weapons mentioned (interestingly, does not mention grey)
general moriquendi / alternate name? -- specifically weaponless

perhaps tolkien was trying to assign not only personalities, but capabilities: ability to defend themselves, offensive capability, ability to defend a realm.


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

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