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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Errrrr. . . what men were EVER on The Council of The Wise??! WHAT The ANGBAND!??
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AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 13 2013, 5:18am

Post #1 of 159 (21182 views)
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Errrrr. . . what men were EVER on The Council of The Wise??! WHAT The ANGBAND!?? Can't Post

Love some of the new Hobbit Icons, by the way.


But, allright. . . I love Galadriel, God knows I do, and she is one of the most awesome and mighty people in Middle-Earth. . . but I am all but waiting for Phillipa Boyens to tell us that she was responsible for the formation of Arda. The details keep getting more and more sketch.


Elves, Wizards and MEN???? What Men were ever on The Council? You have to watch those clips from the Japanese site an earlier poster added, but Ms. Boyens talks about Galadriel having gathered Men along with the Elves and Wizards of The Council. . . can someone please tell me what version of the lore she is getting her information from, because I have NEVER heard such things.

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


emre43
Lorien

May 13 2013, 7:21am

Post #2 of 159 (800 views)
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Tolkien wrote something along the lines of [In reply to] Can't Post

Galadriel, Celeborn, Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman, Cirdan were all members of the White Council as well as other of the wise in Middle Earth. Can anybody think of a human that could be considered wise at the time of the White Council?


boldog
Rohan


May 13 2013, 7:30am

Post #3 of 159 (704 views)
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hhhmmmmm [In reply to] Can't Post

beorn perhaps? he was a man shape shifter?
Elrond is half elven, you didn't mention him.
not a man , but I have a feeling that they might somehow add thranduil to the white council, which explains the speculation of his woodland elves in dol guldur...

"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 13 2013, 7:56am

Post #4 of 159 (688 views)
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Whomever was current Chief of the Northern Rangers? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Galadriel, Celeborn, Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman, Cirdan were all members of the White Council as well as other of the wise in Middle Earth. Can anybody think of a human that could be considered wise at the time of the White Council?



I doubt that the Chieftain of the Dunedain was ever considered an official member of the White Council. However, it is possible that the then current leader was occasionally consulted or his aid requested on Council business. Really, no other possibilities come to mind.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


DeadRabbits
Lorien


May 13 2013, 8:03am

Post #5 of 159 (685 views)
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The Dunedain chieftains? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was almost certain that some of the Dunedain chieftains were members of the WC during periods of the third age, but now I can't find any info to back my thesis. Is this completely out of the blue, or has Tolkien actually written something along those lines?

Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought


Bombadil
Half-elven


May 13 2013, 8:20am

Post #6 of 159 (639 views)
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Bomby agrees..Dunedain...YES!/// [In reply to] Can't Post

 


dormouse
Half-elven


May 13 2013, 8:26am

Post #7 of 159 (639 views)
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Well, it could just be a slip of the tongue.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... it's a relaxed interview, Philippa Boyens is listing Middle Earth races and 'men' just slips out, along with Elves, wizards - and in answer to other questions they would be part of the story. It is very easily done in interview.

You're absolutely right that Tolkien doesn't say that men were involved in the Council. But he isn't very specific about who was, either - people keep naming Radagast but Tolkien never did. He isn't specific about when the Council met; a few individual meetings are mentioned but that's not to say that those were all the meetings. The Council covered too long a time period for any one man to have been a member, but I'd say that it isn't beyond the realms of possibility that men were brought in if the occasion demanded.

So far the films have not shown men on the Council. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Either PB made a mistake in the interview, or the version of the lore she's getting her information from is the version they've devised for the films - which may not be as readers have imagined it, but on this point at least it doesn't contradict Tolkien.


Arannir
Valinor


May 13 2013, 10:13am

Post #8 of 159 (620 views)
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I do not find it un-reasonable... [In reply to] Can't Post

... that also men were considered to be wise enough to get on the council, although not as permanently as the elves and wizards.

Similar to the Security Council - permanent and non-permanent members, with non-permanent members often chosen because of recent importance or developments.

During a time of Gondor at war, the Wise would certainly be, well, wise, to call a Stewart of Gondor to the Council, at least for a while, and even if only to influence him a little in case he acts foolish.

It was a shame, really, for the Free Peoples that the WC wasn't active anymore at the time of the outbreak of the War of the Ring. Especially with high ranking Men there, the stand against Sauron could have been organized much more effectively instead of the chaos that happened, especially when Saruman opened a second front.



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.

(This post was edited by Arannir on May 13 2013, 10:17am)


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


May 13 2013, 2:50pm

Post #9 of 159 (521 views)
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Reference [In reply to] Can't Post

Reference, please? I gather there is a new interview somewhere. I'd like to see/view it so I can look for Boyens' usual sexist agenda. Claiming "men" (and I imagine that's not meant as a woman representing the race of Men) were there doesn't fit that agenda unless Galadriel raised them to life herself from the dirt of Middle-earth because Eru had a schedule conflict.


Arannir
Valinor


May 13 2013, 2:56pm

Post #10 of 159 (514 views)
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here [In reply to] Can't Post

http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=604019;sb=post_time;so=DESC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread


Not sure you will find evidence for your hallucinations there, though. CrazyWink



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


dik-dik
Lorien


May 13 2013, 3:00pm

Post #11 of 159 (525 views)
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Re: men at councils [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Elves, Wizards and MEN???? What Men were ever on The Council? You have to watch those clips from the Japanese site an earlier poster added, but Ms. Boyens talks about Galadriel having gathered Men along with the Elves and Wizards of The Council. . . can someone please tell me what version of the lore she is getting her information from, because I have NEVER heard such things.


Okay, I haven't listened to that interview, but the wording you use -the part I bolded- could also suggest that Galadriel gathered 'Elves and Wizards of the Council', and recruited also some Men to tag along? Could that be it?

Granted the top-secrecy Council of Elrond had quite a bunch of anonymous characters sitting around including Men, I was actually surprised at the White Council in TH consisting of four persons only. The Men would make more sense to be there (as some mentioned - to answer questions and provide specialized advice/descriptions, rather than make decisions) than their presence does at the LotR council, where much more was at stake, security-wise, and any information leak from any of the attendees (Mirkwood Elves, those Dwarves, the unnamed Men) would lead to the ultimate disaster.

I'm much less grumpy about the potential prospect of a few trusty humans attending a select White Council meeting, than about the absence of Celeborn and Glorfindel from said meeting, given how far their wisdom and knowledge must have surpassed those of Men. They could have at least sat there silently in the background... the non-fans wouldn't care, and the fans would recognize them correctly. Smile

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


May 13 2013, 3:07pm

Post #12 of 159 (508 views)
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Gah [In reply to] Can't Post

For crying out loud, a little common sense help with the Japanese to find the right video without having to watch everything? Would be appreciated.


(This post was edited by JWPlatt on May 13 2013, 3:09pm)


Arannir
Valinor


May 13 2013, 3:13pm

Post #13 of 159 (496 views)
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How lovely. [In reply to] Can't Post

You must have a great day.

I do not remember... I think it is one of those on the left side. You can see within seconds whether it is the one about the WC.

CrazyCrazyCrazy



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


DanielLB
Immortal


May 13 2013, 3:18pm

Post #14 of 159 (481 views)
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No direct link [In reply to] Can't Post

Click the second button on the left.


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


May 13 2013, 3:48pm

Post #15 of 159 (466 views)
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Alliance Versus White Council [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, with Arannir and DanielLB's help I was able to click directly on the correct video, not knowing where the video was and not being able to read Japanese.

In her defense, I note with emphasis that Boyens refers to an "alliance." That is an important and essential grammatical distinction from the White Council proper. While the White Council consists of specific characters, Boyen's words do not directly mean that Men attended the Council. You could perceive it as an implication, but it might not have been intended that way. I do not see it was a slip of the tongue because such things do not make it through the process of a polished production video like this. Rather, I would see her words about Men as deliberately spoken to mean the Council is making decisions which influence how alliances are forged, much like governments determine the issues of The People without those people in physical attendance.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 13 2013, 3:56pm

Post #16 of 159 (442 views)
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Radagast [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
... it's a relaxed interview, Philippa Boyens is listing Middle Earth races and 'men' just slips out, along with Elves, wizards - and in answer to other questions they would be part of the story. It is very easily done in interview.

You're absolutely right that Tolkien doesn't say that men were involved in the Council. But he isn't very specific about who was, either - people keep naming Radagast but Tolkien never did.



Please, don't be offended that I am singleing out this one, particular point. Galadriel inviited the Istari to join the Councils of the Wise. We can infer that Radagast was included in that invitation even if he seldom took part or even appeared for meetings. The two Blue Wizards had arrived and moved on long before this, but we can also guess that they would have been accepted into the White Council if they had re-appeared.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


May 13 2013, 4:07pm

Post #17 of 159 (425 views)
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Relaxed [In reply to] Can't Post

This a formal, polished and prepared production video. There is no chance for slips of the tongue making it through that process. Boyens' words are deliberate. That said, see my other post.


Darkstone
Immortal


May 13 2013, 4:21pm

Post #18 of 159 (458 views)
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Hobbits too. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's just no one noticed them.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


May 14 2013, 1:37am

Post #19 of 159 (338 views)
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I forgot that Cirdan was part of the council [In reply to] Can't Post

I wish I could see him. There's Azog, who's was only mentioned, why can't Cirdan be at the White Council too? He's another fave elf of mine.


JWPlatt
Grey Havens


May 14 2013, 2:38am

Post #20 of 159 (337 views)
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Cirdan [In reply to] Can't Post

They boyenscotted Cirdan in The Lord of the Rings, so I think they're stuck with that now because then how do you explain his sudden absence later if he is in The Hobbit?


emre43
Lorien

May 14 2013, 7:46am

Post #21 of 159 (298 views)
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Whoops, forgot about Elrond, Tolkien also mentioned him as a member [In reply to] Can't Post

 


emre43
Lorien

May 14 2013, 7:50am

Post #22 of 159 (298 views)
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Technically speaking, [In reply to] Can't Post

Aragorn was Chieftain of the Dunedain at the time of the Hobbit, at just ten years old. Not sure he has enough life experience to be considered wise yet. Halbarad perhaps?


Slim
Rivendell


May 14 2013, 8:42am

Post #23 of 159 (314 views)
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Sexist agenda? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Boyens' usual sexist agenda


Could you perhaps clue me in a bit on this please? I didn't know she had one.

Shocked


Arannir
Valinor


May 14 2013, 9:35am

Post #24 of 159 (306 views)
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Huh? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why the hell would he have been needed in a bigger role in LotR other than standing in the background at the Havens?

Sorry, but your sexist agenda thing really seems like a major hyperbole to me. Especially if only blamed on Boyens... they are three in the team.

Yes, she has stated for both trilogies that they wanted to bring some female power to the game. And did so with Arwen and now with Galadriel. But especially with the former I would argue that "female power" was not the only purpose, it also served their characterization of Aragorn, as well as the cutting of minor roles such as Glorfindel for better movie-storytelling.

As for Galadriel - I do not want to start the whole Ainur/Elf debate again, but as of now Galadriel has not done anything, yet, that would go against the way she and her role as a female is portrayed by Tolkien.

I cannot follow you where the sexism comes in.



A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 14 2013, 12:35pm

Post #25 of 159 (284 views)
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Tolkien never placed Cirdan at the Council of Elrond either... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
They boyenscotted Cirdan in The Lord of the Rings, so I think they're stuck with that now because then how do you explain his sudden absence later if he is in The Hobbit?



Cirdan the Shipwright did not attend the Council of Elrond. He was represented by his messenger, Galdor of the Grey Havens. Cirdan's absence does not need a further explanation.

Was one of the Elves at Jackson's Council of Elrond identified as Galdor? If not, could one of the unnamed Elves have been him?

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

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