Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Silmarilion Discussion: Chapter 12 -- "Of Men," Part 2: The Biosphere of Arda
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 Next page Last page  View All

Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 9 2013, 10:21pm

Post #51 of 110 (206 views)
Shortcut
elves as witnesses to death [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i'm not sure about legolas in particular, but there's a chance in his (at least) 500 years he's seen some folks die... if he winds up at the battle of five armies in pjackson's th:bo5a, he surely has.

i think what may be different for him (re gandalf's death and boromir's death) is the permanence of death... (none of the company had any inkling that gandalf +could+ come back, let alone would). being personally invested in someone who is not going to hang out in mandos for a while and rebody.

when i see (film reference) the elven bodies pile up in the two towers, at helm's deep, it is horrible, but it's not like they can't come back.

which brings me to another thing i've been thinking on....

re rebodying... in morgoth's ring tolkien writes that when elves are rebodied they are born among their families. he makes it seem like they usually +wouldn't+ be reborn to their parents, but to other elves within their family.

additionally, if the rebodied elf had a spouse, because elves bond for life and that is part of the normalcy/stability of their presence in arda, they are rebodied in such a time and place so that they will most certainly meet their spouse again, and have the opportunity to remarry.

so when i'm thinking of all these elves that are slain or die... from the wars of beleriand to those like the teleri in aman... i wonder... if a teleri on tol eressea slips on the dock, hits his head, falls into the bay and drowns, will he be rebodied somewhere in ossiriand or beleriand, because that's where is family are or that's where his wife is?

i have this picture of elves popping up in both aman and the mainland, swishing back and forth, because of all the complexities due to sundered kindreds and marriages.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


elaen32
Gondor

May 9 2013, 10:28pm

Post #52 of 110 (204 views)
Shortcut
What a difference one letter makes..... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To

what exactly do the valar and eldar fear.... morality must be accompanied by decay. that was probably quite disturbing to them, and threatening


Must have been worrying for such moral beings!WinkCrazy Usually I could make some sort of comment as to the relationship between decay and morality, but I'm half asleep- it being 23:25 here!! Any thoughts, Brethil?Evil Sorry, couldn't resistLaugh

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 9 2013, 10:35pm

Post #53 of 110 (199 views)
Shortcut
lmdao! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
so.... perhaps this whole thing with the valar and the eldar being skeeved out by us is because of a typo?

i suppose it doesn't help that "mor" means "dark" and is the first part of "morgoth" and the first part of "mortal."

it's all rumil's fault. he didn't proofread carefully.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


May 9 2013, 10:56pm

Post #54 of 110 (196 views)
Shortcut
**lots of giggling here** [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To

In Reply To

what exactly do the valar and eldar fear.... morality must be accompanied by decay. that was probably quite disturbing to them, and threatening


Must have been worrying for such moral beings!WinkCrazy Usually I could make some sort of comment as to the relationship between decay and morality, but I'm half asleep- it being 23:25 here!! Any thoughts, Brethil?Evil Sorry, couldn't resistLaugh




So those rampant bubble baths I have planned for Thorin will for the best! Now I'm obligated, MORALLY. Really.

Thanks Elaen!!! (This thread just gets better and better Mac!)Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 9 2013, 10:58pm

Post #55 of 110 (196 views)
Shortcut
they're [In reply to] Can't Post

 
they're never going to let us into valinor now.

but if thorin's not going there, what's the point, anyway?


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


May 9 2013, 11:26pm

Post #56 of 110 (199 views)
Shortcut
I'll keep immorality over immortality any day... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
they're never going to let us into valinor now. (**haha!**)

but if thorin's not going there, what's the point, anyway?





Mac you crack me up!!! Smile
All the cool kids hang out in Arda anyway. Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


May 10 2013, 1:40am

Post #57 of 110 (194 views)
Shortcut
Grass being greener [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Whichever of these gifts you have, you want the other, and each has its blessings and drawbacks, and you see the blessings of the one you don't have. Arwen would feel the rewards after death, but leading up to her lonely death in Lorien, she seems beset only by the bitter aspects of mortality.




THAT is a simply timeless, universal statement that you've arrived at CG. No matter if one is deathless or at death's door - its just the nature of living, sentient, curious beings to seek 'the other thing' that they don't have.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 10 2013, 1:41am

Post #58 of 110 (195 views)
Shortcut
sufferin' succotash [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
[sador] As several thinikers (both westren and oriental) put it, true suffering is of the mind.

Is suffering equivalent to mortality?
No; an eternal life of regret is also a great suffering - and the reason so many of the Eldar end up feeling weary of the world.
Our imagination might not easily encompass this type of eternal loss - but as a deeply religious man, Tolkien thought he could.

If so, because the Edain are mortal, is it their lot to suffer?
According to your definition, of course!

If so, because the Eldar are immortal, is it unnatural that they suffer?

No. As Legolas says in The Great River, all things under the sun wear down in the end.
However, in Farewell to Lorien, Gimli states that in the Elves's eyes, memory is akin to the living world, rather than just a mirror; in that case, perhaps they should not grieve so?


As a side point - Gimli's words firmly establish Dwarves as mortals, which we've dibated earlier this week.


cheers -- [/sador]


well, in the way i described it in the originating post.... much suffering deals with loss.... physical suffering.... loss of health, loss of a normal state of an absence of pain. emotional suffering.... loss of a feeling of safety, loss of love and/or a feeling of being loved, loss of a loved one, loss of an opportunity that could be life-sustaining or life-changing. so, i think suffering has a lot to do with loss.

you might find this interesting (or not! : ) ), but when i think of the edain -- us edain -- i don't immediately think "suffering!" i think of growth, opportunity, diversity, richness.... when i reflect some more, of course i think it would be very unusual for any of us to leave arda without experiencing great loss. ideally, as a member of the edain, we will experience being loved by others and loving others. it is very likely, if one is experiencing that love over time, that some people who love us and whom we love will die before us; thus, we will -- ideally -- experience this sort of loss.

hopefully, that's the only kind of loss we'll experience, that kind of loss that, by its definition, means that we meant something to someone, and others were equally significant to us.

other kinds of loss i'm sure we could all do without and still be good, wonderful people. some of the other suffering i've described.

i ardently disagree with the sages who deem that true suffering is of the mind. i +think+ you may mean to be describing a philosophy that says, roughly, "it's all in our heads, and we can just rethink ourselves to a place where nothing distresses us" (if this is not the case, please and absolutely, do clarify).

while i absolutely have in my understanding the the mind has powerful influence over the body, and have in my understanding that things like learned optimism and having a positive attitude can make critical differences in how we can lead better lives, i think equating all suffering to a "less enlightened state of thinking" does great disservice to edainity.

re elves, memory, and the living world.... interesting... my first impression was that this may have the opposite effect.

one of the reasons that the edain can balance their grief better over time is that it gets incorporated into a larger framework, and may even get moved to the back row.

if an elf experiences loss not as a past thing, but a present and very real thing, present reality, how can that elf move forward? it's almost as if that elf has pstd, in which (for the edain), traumatic experiences of the past feel as if they are actually happening in the present.




cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on May 10 2013, 1:43am)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 10 2013, 2:03am

Post #59 of 110 (182 views)
Shortcut
elucidating upon the two trees, two races metaphor [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
[sador] Could you please elucidate it further?

but do you actually buy this argument? That Middle-Earth got a lot better when the Edain appeared, and got a lot worse as the Elves left en masse for Aman?
Well yes, in a way - it appears that the world is better with the Children on it. Although seeing that the Children belong to the Third Theme, there seems to be no good reason for it.
Perhaps it is just coincidental - the world works better with light.

Again, if you buy this argument, and the biosphere approach, has Middle-Earth sickened with the departure of the Elves?

You mean at the end of the Third Age?
Well, it changed. It became "disenchanted". Is that good or bad? Would you rather live in the Middle-ages?

Are the Edain like vigorous white cells, scrubbing away old tissue so new tissue can grow?

That's a nice take on Man's interference with the eco-system!
I mostly hear and read people complaining about it.

Are the Eldar like anti-oxidant features of the body?
Hmm... I always imagined the last fruit of Laurelin to be something like a citrus; but it is Men who are associated with the Sun...
[/sador]



sure. : ) (re the elucidation.)

as i saw it, in my tree/races revelation, was that this rendition of arda was at its noontide when both children of iluvatar were plentiful and growing and exchanging.

each race has a purpose in arda. one is preserving, the other changing. yin and yang. when the bulk of elves are in aman and not contributing to the greater good of middle-earth (somewhere in the third age/fourth age) an imbalance begins. the elves are not present to preserve and heal the hurts of middle-earth. when they leave and as the few that remain fade, that special healing, and the spiritual healing, is stripped from middle-earth, and the forces of the edain (change, often without heed to preserving and healing) grow apace, with their natural checks removed.

likewise, there was imbalance when the eldar moved about aman and middle-earth while the edain were not yet born. much of middle-earth was still in the sleep of yavanna. promises that were yet to be kept, wonders that had yet to awaken.

during this brief time, when both races were in balance and contributing equally, middle-earth flourished, and was it its best state to combat the evils of morgoth and sauron. no, they could not win an ultimate victory over a vala, but that war belongs to arda marred. the music always orchestrated a time for both the eldar and the edain to stand tall and share their gifts equally. this was the balance, and the noontide.


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


telain
Rohan

May 10 2013, 2:15am

Post #60 of 110 (180 views)
Shortcut
agreed. and no bubble bath can help Maedhros... [In reply to] Can't Post

Great example (Maedhros). I especially like "shadow on your soul"; an action so significantly wrong that the pureness of the Silmarils would burn the bearer. Am I wrong in thinking there was some discussion a few chapters ago regarding whether Feanor would be able to touch the Silmarils? I think I am falling on the side of "not without third degree burns."

And someone asked about whether the Dwarves would be considered mortal (and hence unable to touch ye hallowed Silmarils.) I think that they would be mortal, since they do have a life-span, and hence "no touching". And great point about the hallowing coming from Varda not Eru. I think that is very important since I don't think Eru would have done so -- it is strange enough that the Edain seem sundered from the Valar; Eru disallowing the Edain to touch the Silmarils seems a bridge too far for Eru...

...unless there is something in that action (i.e., the hallowing) that I'm missing...


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 10 2013, 2:28am

Post #61 of 110 (181 views)
Shortcut
who can touch a silmaril [In reply to] Can't Post

 
it was brethil who voiced that on a chapter thread.

i, too, from the first time i read the silmarilion as a kid also thought there was no way, after the kinslaying, that feanor could have held one without it burning him to a crisp. seeing as he was rather fiery himself, it probably wouldn't have taken much to spark the blaze.

i have a hard time envisioning the dwarves creating the nauglimir without touching it, but if they touched it, presumably it would have burned them? weird visions of dwarves handling the silmaril with scraps of cloth and metal tongs.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


telain
Rohan

May 10 2013, 2:31am

Post #62 of 110 (177 views)
Shortcut
excellent point about death [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe Morgoth simply makes death seem "unclean", or "evil". I am thinking along these lines since death is becoming even more strongly linked with disease with the Dawn of the Edain. Perhaps "predatory" death (for want of a more poetic term) was simply part of the kelvar/olvar cycle -- as you mentioned above -- but now that things can die of disease, it puts a rather different spin on things. Now death can be unclean. It can entail great suffering and death can really seem to have no purpose.

Comparing Edain to Eldar there exists a very strange situation: they are Children of Eru and therefore absolutely natural ("natural" here meaning Part of the Song), but they are so different from the Firstborn that the Firstborn see them as unnatural (as you mention.) To think that the two ever found common ground, I think, is actually quite a coup -- and perhaps that is one of the messages Tolkien is trying to tell us -- if these two groups can get along with each other (even only if from time to time), then why not people with so much more in common? (i.e., different modern nationalities, ethnicities, religions, etc.) I would be the first to admit it is a bit of a stretch, but perhaps not...


telain
Rohan

May 10 2013, 2:37am

Post #63 of 110 (179 views)
Shortcut
well, when the Men of Bree are your closest examples of Edain-kind... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I can't imagine Sam would be too thrilled to see more of them!


telain
Rohan

May 10 2013, 2:39am

Post #64 of 110 (174 views)
Shortcut
still laughing... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
... but it seems the mortals would dilute the blessedness of the place by being so tacky that they die in it. And really, would you want your neighbors dying in your living room?


especially the tacky part.



Brethil
Half-elven


May 10 2013, 2:41am

Post #65 of 110 (183 views)
Shortcut
That hallowing is tricky...and I think there is something important in there. [In reply to] Can't Post

And I almost think he is playing sleight-of-hand with us, similar to how he has Treebeard give misleading info about the creation of the Orcs - because Treebeard ISN'T the narrator or the Wise and doesn't know the right answer. But that is only stated in Letters, never in canon. Tricksy.... and realistic.

We have Varda including mortals in the hallowing: but we have the Dwarves, in all stages of the telling (including BoLT) making the Nauglamir. At no point is the difficulty raised of them not being able to touch it. And the hallowing seems not to be a CT edit - looks like what JRRT wrote. In addition Earandil was unable to return to the shores of ME because he was part mortal - yet he wears a Silmaril on his brow without ill effect. Beren touched it, and Elwing, and Dior - we never read about it burning them, despite the one being mortal and the other two being fractions.

So what I wonder is if that although Varda desired it, her power ultimately comes from Eru - and maybe he didn't. I feel like its a bit of a logic puzzle there; but if correct, it means that JRRT via Eru was giving mortality a different and higher valuation than Varda, who groups it rather distastefully (as Mac points out) wth uncleanliness and evil.

Does this make sense? I hope so.

Ah yes - Feanor. I can picture a powerful scene post-Kinslaying and Oath had he recovered a beloved Silmaril, work of his hands and heart - and it burned him. Tragic.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on May 10 2013, 2:46am)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 10 2013, 2:46am

Post #66 of 110 (178 views)
Shortcut
visions of the edain [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
... I can't imagine Sam would be too thrilled to see more of them!


(frodo, hearing the drunken, guttural cursing and unintelligible rumbling of drunken men tottering home from the prancing pony): sam! listen! men!

{the two scramble up a bramble-y slope to peer at the shaggy hulks careening back and forth along the road.)

(frodo): they're going to the yard, behind the stables. to relieve themselves in the trough.

(sam): they're leaving without paying their bill.

(frodo): never to return. until their hangovers are done.

(sam): i don't know why... it makes me sad.




cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


May 10 2013, 2:48am

Post #67 of 110 (172 views)
Shortcut
...And that guy belching with the carrot! gasp! [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 10 2013, 2:50am

Post #68 of 110 (175 views)
Shortcut
i was thinking [In reply to] Can't Post

 
.... of giving that guy special mention.

but he's eating a carrot, which is a healthy choice, so we shouldn't be too hard on him. carrots and ale! carrots are the legendary food of drunkards.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


telain
Rohan

May 10 2013, 2:52am

Post #69 of 110 (163 views)
Shortcut
I still have questions about the Moriquendi... [In reply to] Can't Post

...and I think from some of your answers, sador, it brings to my mind just how left behind they really were. They were the first Elves to come in contact with the Edain and teach them about the Valar -- one might think that there would be a bit more written about them. But if the Silmarilion is meant to be written from the perspective of Eldar, then it highlights a particular gulf between Moriquendi and Calaquendi -- maybe more so than I originally envisioned.

So then, I wonder, just what are the differences between the Calaquendi and Moriquendi? Do any/all/most of the characteristics of Calaquendi apply to Moriquendi? Is it a question of degree?

Maciliel, you and I had posted something similar a while back, but I can no longer see those posts from afar...


Brethil
Half-elven


May 10 2013, 2:52am

Post #70 of 110 (171 views)
Shortcut
**Bofur - laughing** [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
.... of giving that guy special mention.

but he's eating a carrot, which is a healthy choice, so we shouldn't be too hard on him. carrots and ale! carrots are the legendary food of drunkards.




Perfect Mac!!!! Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


elaen32
Gondor

May 10 2013, 5:36am

Post #71 of 110 (175 views)
Shortcut
Maybe... [In reply to] Can't Post

He was an elf undercover- given away by the vegetarian snack choice! (PJ an elf?!!! I think notCrazy!)

Sorry, I'm not contributing to this excellent discussion in a very intelligent manner, am I ? My excuse is that I'm just too tired to think beyond the ridiculous at the moment!Wink

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Elizabeth
Valinor


May 10 2013, 6:53am

Post #72 of 110 (166 views)
Shortcut
Fearing the decline [In reply to] Can't Post

The problem is, Men get old, and much quicker than they're ready for. Physical and mental decline (maybe the latter is worse, in some respects) place a burden on the beloved survivors. I don't have the quote handy, but Tolkien did address the problem when Men (Numenorians) became obsessed with not dying.

So, Aragorn senses his time is coming, and wants to spare Arwen having to watch the less attractive aspects of his decline. I understand that this was horrible for her, but also that it was not "callous" from his POV.








Brethil
Half-elven


May 10 2013, 11:27am

Post #73 of 110 (148 views)
Shortcut
Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

As JRRT says "A good Numenorean died of free will when he felt it was time to do so." I think Aragorn is fulfilling his destiny, with acceptance, but it is Arwen's nature which causes her so much grief, not Aragorn himself.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 10 2013, 12:11pm

Post #74 of 110 (162 views)
Shortcut
speaking of decline [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i'm in the middle of reading morgoth's ring, and came across some passages relating to miriel.

the valar are truly stumped as to why miriel has died. some state that it is the result of their fear being born into hroar into a world that has already been diseased by melkor (arda marred).

it got me to thinking.... previously, i had thought of only traditional bodily pains and such that plauged miriel enough for her to want to die. but tolkien also states that a fea being housed in a hroa is bound to it, and influenced by it.

we know there is the mind, but the mind is also mightily influenced by the physical matrix in which it is housed. things (for the edain) like seretonin uptake, synapses firing, how much thyroid hormone is floating around the system and getting into the cells (depression is a symptom of hypothyrodism).

so it got me to thinking that miriel's hroa might have been damaged or impaired in such a way that psychological issues developed. i'm not reducing it into a neat package of postpartum depression, but i think i'm getting the general gist of it across.

with the edain and such a shorter lifespan +and+ with a hroa more susceptible to decay and injury, our judgement and critical thinking are at even greater risk. so much harder to be wise when the body can assail the mind. but the mind can help heal the body, so it works the other way as well ('tho i think that other way is harder for most to muster).

re arwen... her dna is a mix of eldar, edain, and maiar. i'm not sure there is such a thing as maiar physical dna, as the maiar took forms upon themselves like raiment, and presumably melian took the form of an elf, so the hroa she inhabited would have been full of elvish dna.

so, how does arwen's physical nature impact her life? yes, she chooses mortality, but what does that mean? does her elvish dna ensure she will look beautiful and young up until the time she dies? when she chooses mortality, does her clock start aging as one of the edain? she does have edain dna as well, and there are physical rules for the bodies of the edain.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 10 2013, 12:34pm

Post #75 of 110 (148 views)
Shortcut
thank you, sador!!! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
[sador] You see, I've remembered. Smile
Have some - it's good! It's July 2008 vintage, by the way - just the right thing for finishing one's first_chapter_discussion!

To your questions:

If the Eldar and the Edain are operating, natural forces within Arda, and part of its balance, so must too be the Ainur.
I actually challange this premise. The Ainur were before Arda, and will always be in a way external to it. Elves and Men are being Iluvatar created especially for Arda, and are different.

Would a member of the Edain achieve immortality by living there? Bilbo, Frodo (and presumably Sam and Gimli) travel there to live for an extended period of time. But they are not of immortal race, but mortal.

In the Akallabeth, the messengers of Manwe tell Tar-Atanamir they would not; Sauron, however, tells Ar-Pharazon he would.
It's your choice who to believe - but Manwe has at least one advantage - he actually lives in Aman. Sauron doesn't.

Is Aman preserved through the high concentration of Valar and Eldar?

In the Ambarkanta (which squire will discuss next year), it was stated that the atmosphere in Valinor is physically different. So as far as that concept was preserved - no.

Is this why Aman can extend the life of mortals?
I don't think it really can.

Would the preserved status of Aman be in danger if a high enough concentration of the Edain settled there? Middle-Earth responded to their awakening with rapid change and aging. Aman is part of Arda, and we know the land itself does not impart mortality. Could the Edain physically disrupt the eternity of Aman, just by their presence?

Well, the Great Fleet aparantly did disrupt Aman. It is not quite clear why the Valar took such a radical action against it - or actually, why they were frightened enough to lay down their mandate and call upon the One.

Is the mortality of the Edain powerful enough to disrupt the immortality of the Ainu, even though the Ainu themselves are the most powerful beings in Arda?

No. But the Gift of Iluvatar is - as they have the power to change the fate as expressed in the Music.

Thank you Maciliel! [/sador]



thank you, sweet sador, for remembering! : ) i've had a bit of a bumpy week, job-wise, and this really made me smile... thank you so much! : )

yes, yes, by all means fair and just and indulgent, break out that miruvor! it will water our eloquence.


interesting, re the ainur.... yes, the originated before arda and stepped into it willingly... but similar things may be said of the fear of the edain and of the elves ('tho we don't know about the conscious choice part). aren't they all --- edain, eldar, ainur -- created especially for arda? the elves and the ainur who chose to enter are bound by it, so that's an additional rule.

i rather think not that a mortal could achieve immortality by living in aman. i think tolkien explicitly states no. so then what happens to the mortals that journey there (bilbo, frodo, and, presumably, sam and gimli)? the hobbits go to be healed, and it's implied / i infer that the healing will take a long time (seems it would take longer than the natural lifespan left to bilbo). but if aman / being among all the valar would hasten the physical decline of mortals, how does this balance out? they need more time for healing, but at the same time their decay is hastened, just by being in aman? seems like valarian intervention would be needed, which is an interesting thought --- the valar being able to extend the life / health of a mortal (perhaps with prior permission from eru).

so, is it the valar's presence, or aman's physicality, or the special, healing powers of certain valar (nienna, este, lorien) that are supposed to do the healing with these mortals? what are we to make of the fact that there's both healing and destroying being done in aman?

and this gift thing -- we've been discussing the gift a lot regarding its impact on the body (mortality), but we have hardly discussed the fate aspect. let's break open that cask.

(thank +you+ sador! great responses and counter-questions!)



many sunny cheers : )


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.