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Why were to "Sons of Elrond" so popular?

Dis15
Bree

May 6 2013, 9:26pm

Post #1 of 24 (555 views)
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Why were to "Sons of Elrond" so popular? Can't Post

I have read at least three times of elves who left their homes to go and spend time with the Sons of Elrond? Why? I know nothing about them except from references in ancestry logs. Did they go just to hang out with them, sing, hunt orcs?


IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

May 6 2013, 9:58pm

Post #2 of 24 (380 views)
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Aragorn [In reply to] Can't Post

rode with them to hunt orcs. They were probably like brothers to him. The Sons of Elrond are intriguing. They rescued their mother from the orcs -- must have been some fight.


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


May 7 2013, 12:22am

Post #3 of 24 (349 views)
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They are intriguing [In reply to] Can't Post

I wish to know more about Elros and Elrohir.


MomoftheShire
Rivendell

May 7 2013, 3:33am

Post #4 of 24 (325 views)
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It's Elladan [In reply to] Can't Post

and Elrohir. I find it interesting that they do not sail west with their father after LOTR. Oh, the fanfics to be written!


dik-dik
Lorien


May 7 2013, 9:23am

Post #5 of 24 (298 views)
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I'm not sure I understand your question... [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you talking about fanfiction, or about the canon Elves who go and spend their time with the sons of Elrond? (I only recall Celeborn at the moment, which due to their kinship obviously isn't what you meant...)

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


Patty
Immortal


May 7 2013, 12:03pm

Post #6 of 24 (301 views)
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Have you seen this, Dis15....? [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G6ixwyTUdk

Permanent address: Into the West






Dis15
Bree

May 7 2013, 10:12pm

Post #7 of 24 (235 views)
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I am pretty sure (but not positive) I read that there were at least two elves [In reply to] Can't Post

who left home to hang out with these Sons of Elrond. I was just curious to hear if anyone knew what the appeal was. Idril noted that Aragorn also visited with them to hunt orc, and after the losing their mother to orcs, maybe they became famous for these hunts and had great success and many Elves wanted to participate? I was just curious, I don't remember reading any specifics about them.


[Aule has just told his wife, Yavanna, about his children, the Dwarves, and that they will have dominion over the things she has made, trees & forests, flowers etc. She is quite upset and goes to Manwe. Manwe tells her of the Guardians of her Forests, the Ents. She feels very much better and her heart rejoices!]:

... Yavanna said "Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril."
"Nonetheless they will have need of wood," said Aule, and he went on with his smith-work.
The Silmarillion, Chapter 2


Dis15
Bree

May 7 2013, 10:16pm

Post #8 of 24 (238 views)
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YouTube [In reply to] Can't Post

Can not access YouTube from this computer. Will see if I can check it out sometime. What is it?


[Aule has just told his wife, Yavanna, about his children, the Dwarves, and that they will have dominion over the things she has made, trees & forests, flowers etc. She is quite upset and goes to Manwe. Manwe tells her of the Guardians of her Forests, the Ents. She feels very much better and her heart rejoices!]:

... Yavanna said "Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power in the forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril."
"Nonetheless they will have need of wood," said Aule, and he went on with his smith-work.
The Silmarillion, Chapter 2


Patty
Immortal


May 7 2013, 10:28pm

Post #9 of 24 (220 views)
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It is an animated short about the sons of Elrond./ [In reply to] Can't Post

Done by twins who are big Tolkien fans.

Permanent address: Into the West






Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 7 2013, 11:37pm

Post #10 of 24 (233 views)
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The Sons of Elrond are a fascinating pair [In reply to] Can't Post

Elladan and Elrohir were probably two of the most powerful warriors among the Elves and Half-elves born in the Third Age; they were every bit as heroic and proficient as Legolas of the Woodland Realm. They seemingly always had something of an adventureous streeak. They rescued their mother Celebrķan from Orcs only to see that she never fully recovered. They had to watch her sail into the West only a year later. Afterward, they rode out and fought Orcs whenever the opportunity presented itself and became good friends with many of the Rangers of the North.

After their exile to the North, the Heirs of Isildur were fostered for a time in the House of Elrond, especially Aragorn II after the death of his father. Aragorn was proabably seen much as a little brother by the twins, who in knowledge, training and ability could probably have been considered veteran Rangers in their own right. I think it was likely that they represented their father at the White Council's attack of Dol Guldur, or at least that they accompanied him there.

The pair remained in Middle-earth in the Fourth Age, presumably (although Tolkien never confirmed it) choosing the Fate of Men over their elven heritage. We know nothing of their deaths or if either of them ever married or sired children.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 7 2013, 11:38pm)


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


May 8 2013, 12:18am

Post #11 of 24 (252 views)
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Thanks for the correction [In reply to] Can't Post

That is interesting that they did not sail to the west.


Dis15
Bree

May 8 2013, 9:14pm

Post #12 of 24 (175 views)
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They are intriging! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks everyone! I appreciate everyone's input, and Otaku-sempai's description helps me to get a feel of who they were. After these last few weeks, I wish I could go hang out with them tonight!

Dis, Aule's Child

... Yavanna said "Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power [the Ents] in the [my] forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril."
"Nonetheless they will have need of wood," said Aule, and he went on with his smith-work.
The Silmarillion, Chapter 2


dik-dik
Lorien


May 8 2013, 10:21pm

Post #13 of 24 (167 views)
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If you could point me towards where the Elves are mentioned, [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd be grateful. I did a small research, but cannot find a mention anywhere of Elves seeking them out, with the exception of their grandfather Celeborn. Although there's no doubt they were people of great authority, despite their half-elven status, as seen e.g. from their position as leaders of the entire household of Elrond when they arrive at Minas Tirith.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington


Hamfast Gamgee
Gondor

May 8 2013, 11:22pm

Post #14 of 24 (175 views)
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One rare thing about the sons of Elrond [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that they were Elves born in the 3rd age. There weren't that many of them!


JohnsS29
The Shire


May 8 2013, 11:43pm

Post #15 of 24 (171 views)
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Tolkien Never Says They Didn't [In reply to] Can't Post

I find it interesting that some fans think that it was probable they didn't sail West and chose the Fate of Man.

Ever since my first reading of LOTR I always thought that they sailed to the West at a later time because:
  1. No reason is given why they would want to choose the Fate of Man.
  2. Since their whole lives were centered around their mother, I believe there in no way they would choose not to see her again and spend eternity with her.
  3. The way to the West remained open long after Elrond departed as evidenced by what Aragorn tells Arwen before his death and by what Legolas and Gimli actually do after his death.
  4. Tolkien never says they didn't. What Tolkien says is that there is no historical record of what happened to them.
So to me there is no reason to think that they didn't sail to the Undying Lands to join both their father and mother for all eternity at a later time..

JOHNS29

(This post was edited by JohnsS29 on May 8 2013, 11:47pm)


MomoftheShire
Rivendell

May 9 2013, 10:47am

Post #16 of 24 (142 views)
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JohnS [In reply to] Can't Post

You are right. I only meant to say, that, as of the close of LOTR (and the appendices), the sons of Elrond had not sailed west.

Just like Dis, in the appendices, does not have a death date, leading me to believe she was still alive at the close of LOTR.


Elthir
Gondor

May 9 2013, 1:54pm

Post #17 of 24 (140 views)
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I think it's at least somewhat implied that they didn't... [In reply to] Can't Post

... as Robert Foster appears to note in his guide. Robert Foster writes: '... and since they did not accompany Elrond over Sea they seem to have chosen to become mortal'

I think that Foster's entry is not simply based on the sons not sailing with Elrond however, but arguably Elrond's and Aragorn's words from the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen: 'That so long as I abide here, she shall live with the youth of the Eldar (...) And when I depart, she shall go with me, if she so chooses.' Aragorn responds that the years of Elrond's abiding run short at last, '... and the choice must soon be laid on your children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth'. Elrond answers 'Truly' but notes 'soon as we account the years'.

Earlier in the N. Kings [Appendices] section it is noted that the children of Elrond had the choice to pass '...with him from the Circles of the World; or if they remained to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.'

Of course the option remains that 'with him' means 'as he did' or similar, but especially the conversation with Aragorn seems very much about timing to my mind. There's an interesting draft text called T4 in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, which according to Christopher Tolkien: '...was and remained for a long time the form of the Tale of Years that my father thought appropriate, and was indeed proposed to the publishers in 1954.' It reads in part (concerning Elrond's children):

2300 '(...) These children were three parts Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind.'

Again, I realize one can work around this, but taken all together (not that Foster had this last bit to work with) Tolkien has (IMO) at least left the impression that to stay in Middle-earth when Elrond departed reflects the choice of mortality.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 9 2013, 2:17pm

Post #18 of 24 (126 views)
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Nice find [In reply to] Can't Post

It certainly looks like it was Tolkien's intent that the sons of Elrond would become Mortal if they remained in Middle-earth past their father's departure.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


CuriousG
Valinor


May 9 2013, 5:30pm

Post #19 of 24 (119 views)
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Doesn't that seem arbitrary? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for listing all of those references, Elthir, and it's from reading them in the past that I've always assumed the boys became mortal, so that even though Celeborn dwelt with them for awhile, he later passed over the Sea and they did not.

But what seems arbitrary to me is that they had to go when Elrond did. Why? Legolas and other Elves went later. I understand that Arwen chose to be mortal to be with Aragorn, but Elladan and Elrohir didn't marry any mortal women that we know of. Just never seems clear to me why leaving when Elrond did is so decisive in their fate.

With Arwen it seems clear. And when she says to Aragorn on his deathbed that no ship would take her across the Sea, I don't interpret that as there aren't any, just that no ship with her aboard would be allowed to reach Valinor. Why the 3/4-Elven boys have less choice than their 1/2-Elven father remains murky.


JohnsS29
The Shire


May 9 2013, 6:20pm

Post #20 of 24 (114 views)
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What really is implied? [In reply to] Can't Post

In the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen the last thing implied, after Aragorn and Elrond's conversation, is that the way was not really closed at the exact time of Elrond's departure. And that implication comes from Aragorn* himself as noted in my point #3 above. It's almost a deathbed statement on his part.

As to the draft statement in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, it being left out of the final draft seems to imply that Tolkien decided to leave the question open. That appears to be why when directly commenting on the fate of Elrond's Sons in the LOTR** it basically says 'we don't know there's no record'.


*Aragorn would be more knowledgeable about this matter than Tolkien who only translated what was in the Red Book.Smile
**W
hich is what I was referring to when I spoke about what Tolkien wrote in my point #4 above.

JOHNS29


Dis15
Bree

May 9 2013, 8:05pm

Post #21 of 24 (101 views)
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Reference Points? [In reply to] Can't Post

It may have been in the Sil or the appendices - I will look over the next few days. I know it was fairly recent, and these are the two things I've been reading lately.

Dis, Aule's Child

... Yavanna said "Now let thy children beware! For there shall walk a power [the Ents] in the [my] forests whose wrath they will arouse at their peril."
"Nonetheless they will have need of wood," said Aule, and he went on with his smith-work.
The Silmarillion, Chapter 2


Elthir
Gondor

May 9 2013, 8:42pm

Post #22 of 24 (120 views)
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What's implied... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
In the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen the last thing implied, after Aragorn and Elrond's conversation, is that the way was not really closed at the exact time of Elrond's departure. And that implication comes from Aragorn* himself as noted in my point #3 above. It's almost a deathbed statement on his part.




... [in my opinion] is that whether or not the way for Elves is closed, the choice for the Half-elven Elladan and Elrohir and Arwen is: to remain behind when Elrond sailed means mortality. I've little doubt that the way was still open in general, but Elrond's sons and daughter appear to have been special cases.



Quote
As to the draft statement in The Peoples of Middle-Earth, it being left out of the final draft seems to imply that Tolkien decided to leave the question open. That appears to be why when directly commenting on the fate of Elrond's Sons in the LOTR** it basically says 'we don't know there's no record'.



Actually, and generally speaking now, the long form of the Tale of Years is the one Tolkien wanted in print, but his publisher told him to reduce it -- and he did -- I note the footnote about it being given in reduced form in The Lord of the Rings too, which reflects the actual external scenario as well as the internal scenario.


And if I recall correctly it's said about Celeborn that there's no record of the day when at last he sought the West Oversea. Nothing at all was said about Elladan and Elrohir in the first edition of The Lord of the Rings [due to the Epilogue being taken out] -- but in the revised edition of the 1960s, Tolkien actually added two references that note that the Sons of Elrond did not sail with Elrond.

Also, I'm aware of the famed letter about the brothers 'delaying' their choice...

... but I say to anyone who might bring this letter up, first check the date Smile


(This post was edited by Elthir on May 9 2013, 8:48pm)


CuriousG
Valinor


May 10 2013, 2:31pm

Post #23 of 24 (69 views)
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Thanks for keeping yet another timeline straight for us, Elthir [In reply to] Can't Post

You did that recently for the origin of orcs, and it was helpful. I think we all have morsels of Tolkien references in our heads, but it's not easy to keep straight what was written first and what was meant to supersede something else (and even with Tolkien's own timeline/Tale of Years, what was meant to replace what or take priority).


Elthir
Gondor

May 12 2013, 3:26pm

Post #24 of 24 (52 views)
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thanks CuriousG... [In reply to] Can't Post

... although I should add that I'm not wholly positive that there are no [none whatsoever] references, in the First Edition, to Elladan and Elrohir remaining in Middle-earth after Elrond sailed. I only think this is the case because the two that exist [that I recall anyway] come from additional description added to the Second Edition of the 1960s.

So the problem is that I'm really assuming there isn't a 'third' reference from the 1950s in print. But I warn myself that I only recently realized that there was another reference to Elladan and Elrohir [again, a reference that revealed that the Sons remained after Elrond sailed] intended for the First Edition, but it existed in the ultimately abandoned Epilogue -- which factor changed my argument slightly about the famed letter, in any case.

So corrections welcome on that account [a reference to this in print from the 1950s]... but so far I don't remember one.

Smile


(This post was edited by Elthir on May 12 2013, 3:27pm)

 
 

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