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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Mysterious Absence of Celeborn

Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


May 7 2013, 5:11pm

Post #1 of 23 (1385 views)
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The Mysterious Absence of Celeborn Can't Post

I wonder why he is missing. Is it to avoid having too many characters in the film? Is it so that Gandalf and Galadriel can share their tender moment? Is it because somebody had to stay behind to rule Lorien? Or is it because the actor, Marton Csokas, didn't want to reprise the role? (I believe he was among those who filed the lawsuit over LotR all those years ago).

It would have made sense for Celeborn to have accompanied his wife to Rivendell, as he would have certainly have been a member of the White Council given Galadriel's involvement.

Why do you think he is absent? And do you think other characters whom we have already seen in The Hobbit (e.g. Saruman) could be absent at the Battle of Dol Guldur?

"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."


dormouse
Half-elven


May 7 2013, 5:30pm

Post #2 of 23 (753 views)
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Because they didn't need him, perhaps.... [In reply to] Can't Post

... and as he isn't actually in The Hobbit they didn't feel any reason to add him to the cast if they didn't have a role for him to play. Tolkien never said that he was a member of the White Council; people just assume that he was because Galadriel was.

As for Dol Guldur, we don't actually know that there's going to be a battle there - not in the sense of army pitched against army. If an army rides out from Lorien it would make absolute sense for him to be at its head, as Tolkien gave him that role later, after the destruction of the Ring. But maybe there won't be an army from Lorien. Maybe there won't be armies at all.


Darkstone
Immortal


May 7 2013, 5:46pm

Post #3 of 23 (683 views)
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"Why has nothing of this been told to me before?" [In reply to] Can't Post

Probably wasn't the first time Celeborn ever asked that question.

Celeborn seems to have been constantly left out of the loop, which is about what you'd expect of the grandson of someone named Elmo.

Cirdan is the only member of the council actually named by Tolkien who is missing, and that is easily explained by his words to Gandalf in Appendix B: "But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you.'

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


May 7 2013, 6:04pm

Post #4 of 23 (657 views)
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True that [In reply to] Can't Post

Celeborn was never blatantly called a member: only Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel, Elrond and Cirdan were definite members. But Tolkien said that "other Lords among the Eldar" were also members, and that does suggest that Celeborn would have had some involvement in the Council, especially likely given his wife's involvement.

"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."


Elizabeth
Valinor


May 7 2013, 6:21pm

Post #5 of 23 (639 views)
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Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Galadriel is a powerful Elf in her own right. Celeborn is her consort, but there is no indication that he was in any sense her equal. Dennis Thatcher didn't participate in meetings with world leaders just because his wife was Prime Minister of England.








Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


May 7 2013, 6:30pm

Post #6 of 23 (595 views)
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Something about the fact that Galadriel herself called Celeborn "wise". Nevertheless I see your point// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."


Eruonen
Tol Eressea


May 7 2013, 8:35pm

Post #7 of 23 (547 views)
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No, but HRC did! [In reply to] Can't Post

Or Eleanor of Aquitaine, Margaret of Anjou or Isabella of France....


(This post was edited by Eruonen on May 7 2013, 8:41pm)


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 7 2013, 9:24pm

Post #8 of 23 (473 views)
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She was Prime Minister of Britain, not just England. [In reply to] Can't Post

So England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.


In Reply To
Galadriel is a powerful Elf in her own right. Celeborn is her consort, but there is no indication that he was in any sense her equal. Dennis Thatcher didn't participate in meetings with world leaders just because his wife was Prime Minister of England.



DanielLB
Immortal


May 7 2013, 9:30pm

Post #9 of 23 (477 views)
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Since we're being pernickety .... ;-) [In reply to] Can't Post

She was actually Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

Britain (or Great Britain) doesn't include Northern Ireland.

WinkSly


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 7 2013, 9:33pm

Post #10 of 23 (466 views)
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Yes, I was going to change it to United Kingdom, but got diverted. [In reply to] Can't Post

So there!

Tongue


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 8 2013, 12:01am

Post #11 of 23 (453 views)
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I never considered Celeborn's absence to be particularly mysterious. [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien never specified whether or not Lord Celeborn was counted among the members of the White Council. It may be that he was content to remain in Lothlorien when Lady Galadriel had Council business to see to. Actually, his apparent absence from Council meetings tends to support that point of view.

Similarly, Elladan and Elrohir, the sons of Elrond, appear not to be members of the Council. Perhaps their vendetta against Orcs demonstrated that they were too hot-headed to be included.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea


May 8 2013, 2:15am

Post #12 of 23 (413 views)
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too many others at the white council would have made the scene dull [In reply to] Can't Post

if you had others just sitting there listening to Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond and Saruman the scene would have lost its intimacy. What made the scene great was you had "the elite" discussing the big problems of that time period. In fellowship you had all these people just sitting there saying nothing, not that the scene didn't work, it did but i'm glad PJ took a smaller group approach with the white council. Plus, the audience was very familiar with these four characters from LOTR's. Celeborn was seen for about 5 minutes in the previous films and Radagast? come on, no need.


take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!

(This post was edited by MouthofSauron on May 8 2013, 2:20am)


trqn13
Bree


May 8 2013, 9:18am

Post #13 of 23 (384 views)
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lawsuit you say? [In reply to] Can't Post

which one would that be? did not know that

"Give me your name, Horse Master, and I shall give you mine"


Fredeghar Wayfarer
Lorien


May 8 2013, 9:25am

Post #14 of 23 (350 views)
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I vote for "Someone had to rule Lorien" [In reply to] Can't Post

Aside from the answers already given, I would lean towards someone staying behind to rule Lorien. The Galadhrim would need someone to manage affairs and run the government. Plus, it doesn't make sense to send your king and queen off to another land at the same time unless there's someone to rule in their stead and/or a clear line of succession. As morbid as it may be, if one of them was killed, you'd still have the other to take over.


Arannir
Valinor


May 8 2013, 9:35am

Post #15 of 23 (331 views)
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The mind is a powerful and weird thing... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I know somehow have to imagine Galadriel with Maggie's hairdo Crazy



“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


DwellerInDale
Rohan


May 8 2013, 12:35pm

Post #16 of 23 (324 views)
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Very, very relieved [In reply to] Can't Post

that Celeborn is not in the Hobbit films-- at least, if his role was again played by Marton Csokas. Nothing against him personally or as an actor, but he was just dreadfully miscast. In the whole 3 hours of FOTR, there was only one moment when I felt the illusion of being in Middle Earth was shattered: when this ancient high elf appeared, played by the same guy who had recently been the villain in that silly Vin Diesel movie, "XXX". Same evil eyes, five o'clock shadow, etc., but dressed up as an elf. To this day I cover my eyes for those 5 seconds when he appears and speaks his one line.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.



MaeBeth
Bree


May 8 2013, 5:24pm

Post #17 of 23 (327 views)
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Stupid question [In reply to] Can't Post

There was a lawsuit? Help me out people!Crazy

For you & I, there's a new land (Angels that fly)
Sanctuary, my sanctuary yeah
Where fears & lies melt away (Musical tide)
What's left of me, what's left of me now


Darkstone
Immortal


May 8 2013, 5:43pm

Post #18 of 23 (311 views)
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Csokas wasn't involved. [In reply to] Can't Post

From TORn's own "Other Cast" archives:

"October 8, 2008 at 11:48 am by MrCere -
Good friend, good actor and good man Bruce Hopkins has checked in with some news regarding a financial settlement with New Line. In an exclusive he gives us the lowdown. Here it in his own words:


“Gidday,

I trust you are well amidst the heady brew of global financial markets and looming elections!

I wish to inform you that 16 mths after a lawsuit was filed in the Superior Court of Los Angeles, against New Line Cinema, on behalf of 15 NZ actors who played various featured roles in the Lord Of The Rings Trilogy, the action has been settled out of court.

The action related to a contract clause concerning a residual share of net revenues earned from merchandise bearing the likeness of each actors character in the films. As you will be aware these films and their associated merchandise achieved record levels of earnings both at the box office and in merchandising.

I personally began this action over 4 years ago and was advised by an LA entertainment lawyer I had met, Phillip Rosen, to enlist as many NZ actors as I could to take part in the initial approach to New Line.

However after a lack of satisfactory response and then being informed that all of the characters merchandising had achieved significant financial losses to the company, Phillip Rosen enlisted the aid of one of LA’s most respected litigators, attorney Henry Gradstein. At this point the decision was taken to file suit in the Superior Court of LA. The suit was lodged mid 2007 and approximately 2 months ago on advice from Phillip Rosen, and in consultation with our agents, we agreed on a mutually acceptable settlement out of court.

As part of the settlement, details cannot be discussed. I will however put my neck on the line and say that the final settlement amounts are more in keeping with what was in the petty cash drawer at head office when the decision to settle was made!

A couple of actors may be able to have a decent holiday this year, while most will simply be able to buy some new board shorts, a couple of bottles of nice wine and maybe get a haircut in anticipation of their next role in a record breaking global blockbuster!

The fact that a couple of other actors chose to not be involved, fearing it could damage their names in the Hollywood scene is testament to the reality that coming on board to take this action took courage. The actors involved in the case were; Noel Appleby, Jed Brophy, Mark Ferguson, Ray Henwood, Bruce Hopkins, William Johnson, Nathaniel Lees, Sarah McLeod, Ian Mune, Paul Norell, Craig Parker, Robert Pollock, Martyn Sanderson, Peter Tait and Stephan Ure.

It should be noted that he settlement has come a little late for the wonderful Noel Appleby, who played the role of hobbit, Everard Proudfoot in the first film of the trilogy. Toward the end of 2007, Noel passed on after weathering a battle with cancer.

cheers,.. ahhh the joys of spring

Bruce Hopkins
R.B. Hopkins"



And BTW, there's no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid answers, which I have in abundance.

Cool

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


May 8 2013, 6:22pm

Post #19 of 23 (288 views)
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Well bless me, I got it completely wrong! [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry about that, for some reason I could have sworn Csokas had been one of them: how stupid of me not to do my research! Blush

"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


May 8 2013, 11:48pm

Post #20 of 23 (293 views)
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It is odd, especially as Marton Csokas has become a fairly prolific working actor since... [In reply to] Can't Post

so he's another of the old cast they could crowe about stuffing in there. Wink Though in their defense, he was barely in the theatrical edition of LotR was well, which going by the prologue of AUJ, is what TH is a prequel to (and not the EE, where Bilbo starts his book in a totally different way). The mass audience is certainly not going to remember Celeborn or care that he isn't present in the new films.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Kimtc
Rohan


May 9 2013, 4:04am

Post #21 of 23 (233 views)
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True that. [In reply to] Can't Post

As in LOTR, we can just say he got "edited out" of these films.


In Reply To
Though in their defense, he was barely in the theatrical edition of LotR was well, which going by the prologue of AUJ, is what TH is a prequel to (and not the EE, where Bilbo starts his book in a totally different way). The mass audience is certainly not going to remember Celeborn or care that he isn't present in the new films.



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 10 2013, 7:28am

Post #22 of 23 (163 views)
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Well, half the Blessed Council is absentee, so, hey [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I wonder why he is missing. Is it to avoid having too many characters in the film? Is it so that Gandalf and Galadriel can share their tender moment? Is it because somebody had to stay behind to rule Lorien? Or is it because the actor, Marton Csokas, didn't want to reprise the role? (I believe he was among those who filed the lawsuit over LotR all those years ago).

It would have made sense for Celeborn to have accompanied his wife to Rivendell, as he would have certainly have been a member of the White Council given Galadriel's involvement.

Why do you think he is absent? And do you think other characters whom we have already seen in The Hobbit (e.g. Saruman) could be absent at the Battle of Dol Guldur?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


dik-dik
Lorien


May 13 2013, 3:15pm

Post #23 of 23 (116 views)
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Exactly. That, and the fact that... [In reply to] Can't Post

... he's of an ancient and noble line -whichever line of descent we go by-, just as capable of the 'Valinorean mind-talking' as Galadriel and Elrond, portrayed as fully equal to Galadriel in LotR, and lastly, Tolkien himself in the Last Writings puts Celeborn into the 'select few' group of the most far- and deep-seeing beings in Middle-earth, along with only the Istari, Elrond, Galadriel and Cirdan. If that's not proof enough of Celeborn's worthiness of being a member of the White Council short of that being said explicitly, I don't know what is.

"A journalist once asked me what I would like my epitaph to be and I said I think I would like it to be 'He did very little harm'. And that's not easy. Most people seem to me to do a great deal of harm. If I could be remembered as having done very little, that would suit me." ~ Paul Eddington

 
 

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