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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
From the DOS preview: concerns about Tauriel-Share them here!
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Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


May 6 2013, 9:22pm

Post #1 of 34 (1049 views)
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From the DOS preview: concerns about Tauriel-Share them here! Can't Post

Now, I will be fair here: when I first heard about the inclusion of a non-canon Elf character in The Hobbit I was fairly relaxed and open-minded about it, because a lot of PJ's invented characters, such as Lurtz, Haleth and Madril, worked quite well in Lord of the Rings.

However, after seeing the footage showing Tauriel in the DOS preview, my mind has become less complacent. The dialogue ("You like death, Orc? Then let me give it to you!") was badly written (I'm sure several amateur dramatic societies I know of could have done ten times better), and the words felt terribly wrong coming from the mouth of an Elf, who should not be coming out with rash remarks like that. Now obviously the Wood-Elves of Mirkwood are less wise than their Rivendell or Lothlorien kin, but they should not be acting like that unless it is a trait of theirs to have serious anger issues (possibly plausible, given how Thranduil is clearly seen losing it with Thorin and reveling in his authority).

Then there was the voice. Dear me, it sounded like one of those terrible tones that you hear in some LotR video games (think of some of the voice-acting in War in the North, for example). Somehow too modern and almost too American somehow (which is fine anywhere but Middle-earth).

Please share positive things about Tauriel as well as any concerns if you wish, but this has me slightly worried. The Radagast/Azog plots at least had purpose whatever else people thought about them, but an Elf who doesn't exist in the book, is completely unnecessary to the story and supposedly has something going on with Kili (or even Thranduil as some have suggested?) Beyond giving the piece a feminine touch (more than capable of being achieved by the inclusion of Galadriel alone), what does it achieve save yet more tinkering with our beloved book?

I just hope she doesn't have much screen time-though I suspect she'll have plenty.

"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."

(This post was edited by Radagast-Aiwendil on May 6 2013, 9:23pm)


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 6 2013, 10:16pm

Post #2 of 34 (509 views)
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The whole inclusion of 'Tauriel' has me worried. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that if this made-up character has to be included, at least her part will be very small. Unimpressed


Kaede
Rivendell


May 6 2013, 10:29pm

Post #3 of 34 (500 views)
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Not worried at all [In reply to] Can't Post

...I mean, there aren't any wargs outside Rivendell in the book, either and the world has not yet come to an end as a result of them showing up in the film... After enjoying 4 films by these filmmakers set in Middle Earth, I'm pretty much good with their decisions. I do respect your concerns, however--just prefer to see the ale glass as half full.Wink


(This post was edited by Kaede on May 6 2013, 10:33pm)


ArdamŪrŽ
Valinor


May 6 2013, 10:38pm

Post #4 of 34 (472 views)
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Oddly enough... [In reply to] Can't Post

the inclusion of Tauriel is one of the things I'm most looking forward to Crazy

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Galasriniel
Registered User

May 6 2013, 11:10pm

Post #5 of 34 (439 views)
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It could work - wait to see the movie before making all of these judgements. [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with Ardamire. I do not understand why so many people have a problem with the inclusion of Tauriel, or with her personality. Humans have a variety of personalities, so why do all Elves have to be calm and serene at all times? It seems to me that, when pressed, it is perfectly logical that they could become very angry as well! I think the inclusion of a female warrior Elf will add an interesting aspect to the film - most of the changes made, in my opinion, work well within the context of the movie. I am not saying this as someone who has only seen the movies - I have read almost all of Tolkien's works (including his earlier versions). PJ always does a great job translating the world of Middle-earth to the screen, and I firmly believe that whatever he and the production team does will work.


demnation
Rohan


May 6 2013, 11:26pm

Post #6 of 34 (420 views)
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Not too worried [In reply to] Can't Post

I like TH quite a bit, but not as much as I love LOTR or even The Sil. Therefore, I feel a little more accepting of the changes they make. As a matter of fact, I'm kind of looking forward to her character.

On the other hand, I will agree the dialogue is poorly written, but that is true of most of PJ, Fran and Phillipa's made up material.

Use Well the Days


There&ThereAgain
Rohan


May 6 2013, 11:39pm

Post #7 of 34 (426 views)
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to be fair [In reply to] Can't Post

who knows if that dialogue is going to be final. A lot of lines are rewritten in ADR sessions on Lord of the Rings!

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


May 7 2013, 12:38am

Post #8 of 34 (402 views)
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Basically everything you said [In reply to] Can't Post

And as for having a feminine figure in the movies, Galadriel carries that out well. She is beautiful, wise, and the most powerful. Tauriel just seems like some silly girl who is trying to show off to the big boys. That, and I agree, her dialogue is very un-elf-like. That sounds more like something an orc would say. And anyway, I'm not to crazy about these new characters, Alfrid and Braga included.
The ones in the Lord of the Rings were fine, because the parts were very small, and they also added morale. I loved Aragorn's speech to Haleth.


VoronwŽ_the_Faithful
Valinor

May 7 2013, 12:38am

Post #9 of 34 (436 views)
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Hmmmm [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

the words felt terribly wrong coming from the
mouth of an Elf, who should not be coming out with rash remarks like that.




I guess Tolkien really blew it with characters like Saeros, Eol, most of the sons of Feanor (not to mention Feanor himself) and many others, eh?

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire

(This post was edited by VoronwŽ_the_Faithful on May 7 2013, 12:42am)


Lio
Lorien


May 7 2013, 1:21am

Post #10 of 34 (381 views)
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Was concerned at first, now I'm somewhat optimistic [In reply to] Can't Post

Initially Tauriel brought to my mind the Xena-ization of Arwen in FotR, which I'm not such a big fan of. So I was worried that we might be getting a rehash of that, with a different character. But now, the more I see of Tauriel, the less concerned I am. I'm not really sure what it is, but she seems to be shaping up as a character in her own right rather than a token "girl power" inclusion.

Anyway, it's a bit hard to make judgments based on just the Orc scene, especially since we don't know the context. Maybe the Orc had just made some remark which enraged her? And I think Tauriel is meant to be a Dark Elf or one of the lesser kindreds so perhaps it makes sense for her to be a bit rough around the edges. The overall impression I get of her is a tough, no-nonsense captain.

As for her line, was it really that bad? Every once in a while there's some dialogue in the movie adaptations which seems a bit too "modern" or otherwise out of place, and maybe Tauriel's is too. But it's not the worst of the lot. Tongue

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!


Bombadil
Half-elven


May 7 2013, 1:41am

Post #11 of 34 (373 views)
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Up to this Moment in Cinema History? [In reply to] Can't Post

Say or Mention the the Word..Elf?
Orly, then Liv, then..Hugo.

Mirkwood Elves
...are going
"BlowUS.. Down Rivers in Barrels"..

JUSTyouWait..
Wha?ever, PJ&CO have "in Store"
... (story...)

for us
izz His TREAT

(His TREATMENT?)
fur US
w/DOS

Bomby
(Goldberry Channeled this?)


(This post was edited by Bombadil on May 7 2013, 1:43am)


Brethil
Half-elven


May 7 2013, 2:05am

Post #12 of 34 (354 views)
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Very good Voronwe! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
I guess Tolkien really blew it with characters like Saeros, Eol, most of the sons of Feanor (not to mention Feanor himself) and many others, eh?




We just were discussing in the RR (Of Men) how Feanor could have been potentially the best smack-talker of the First age....!!! Cool

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Lissuin
Tol Eressea


May 7 2013, 2:07am

Post #13 of 34 (364 views)
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The movie elves are beautiful and reserved, and Tauriel is that, [In reply to] Can't Post

and I think she will fit into the world we've already seen very well. Everyone will have a different opinion about whether she is needed or not. I'm looking forward to her.

Tolkien wrote of sad, mad, bad and glad elves. We've had precious little glad on the films, mostly sad and mad. I imagine the Captain of the Elven Guard is both of those things when it comes to orcs. As others have said, Tolkien's elves are not written as Vulcans, so I've adapted by imagining them in the films as also controlling their emotions so as not to become overwhelmed by them. If they once let themselves express those, they might behave as we saw Tauriel in this (pre-edited) scene.

I did not at all like the scene of Gollum being beaten by the Gondorian Rangers in LOTR while Faramir looked on. I don't want the good-guys and gals to practice physical or mental torture on prisoners. When emotions run high in war, there has to be an authority that says, "That line will not be crossed." Thranduil does that in this clip. Let's have no bad elves in The Hobbit.


Quote
However, after seeing the footage showing Tauriel in the DOS preview, my mind has become less complacent. The dialogue ("You like death, Orc? Then let me give it to you!") was badly written (I'm sure several amateur dramatic societies I know of could have done ten times better), and the words felt terribly wrong coming from the mouth of an Elf, who should not be coming out with rash remarks like that. Now obviously the Wood-Elves of Mirkwood are less wise than their Rivendell or Lothlorien kin, but they should not be acting like that unless it is a trait of theirs to have serious anger issues (possibly plausible, given how Thranduil is clearly seen losing it with Thorin and reveling in his authority).


(And I'm one of those who thinks the Kili thing was a joke.)


(This post was edited by Lissuin on May 7 2013, 2:08am)


Old Toby
Gondor


May 7 2013, 3:17am

Post #14 of 34 (357 views)
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This again? [In reply to] Can't Post

I honestly don't understand why people get themselves all worked up, worrying about things that might or might not happen in a film that hasn't even been completed yet. I'm sure there will be a deluge of criticism after the film is released, as there are those already prepared to hate it no matter what, but I think it's pointless to fret about possibilities. There will always be plenty of things to worry about in this life, and somehow Tauriel's inclusion or exclusion in PJ's films doesn't make it to my list.

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)

(This post was edited by Old Toby on May 7 2013, 3:19am)


The Mitch King
Rohan


May 7 2013, 4:00am

Post #15 of 34 (303 views)
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Well.... [In reply to] Can't Post

At least us fellas have something to look at now... Evil


Dwarvenfury
Lorien

May 7 2013, 5:01am

Post #16 of 34 (299 views)
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There seem to be reservations. [In reply to] Can't Post

That Tauriel line, while detached from its context, does seem a bit soporific. What might this character
be trying to prove? Perhaps the plan is to flesh out some sort of inferiority-complex backstory for character 'depth.'
Yet, why exactly should the audience care one way or the other, or more importanty, where is Bilbo and the Dwarves throughout this drama?
In prison? lol
I think this character potentially could be an exciting addition, but not if it's done weird.

An additional hypothetical is whether or not Tauriel, and Legolas, appear at the final battle.
I guess it is premature to have a real good idea of the matter, but this idea, admittedly facile, is laughable.
After the family reunion, they'll all be together to have a nice funeral for the fallen. I guess it's efficient.
It just feels wrong though. Who knows though...funny is good too.


DwellerInDale
Rohan


May 7 2013, 5:39am

Post #17 of 34 (302 views)
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As a long-time supporter of Tauriel, [In reply to] Can't Post

...I suppose I should step in and defend her a bit...

First, the line in the interrogation scene, as has been discussed before, comes from B-roll footage without context, ADR, or post production. You could imagine hearing other lines of dialog from the films without all that-- for example, "Oh! It'th not a thought at all! It'th a thilly old thtick inthect!" And listen to her voice when she speaks Elvish outside the dungeon cells; she sounds quite lovely.

The "Orc attack in Mirkwood / Orc Interrogation / Elves Go To Dol Guldur" subplot is something I'm really looking forward to. I think it fills a theoretical hole in Tolkien's history: why does Thranduil never do anything about this evil on the doorstep of his kingdom? Orcs invading Mirkwood and fighting the elf guards (perhaps due to the presence of the ring and/or a ring bearer) is also straight out of Tolkien; in The Fellowship of the Ring, Legolas tells the Council of Elrond about how Gollum escaped from Thranduil's dungeons with the help of an orc attack against the elf guards. That all happens "offstage" in the book, but it would have been a great fight to see, and now we'll apparently get the chance.

People should see the film before forming an opinion about Tauriel. This pre-judging attitude has led to a number of false rumors that may persuade people to dislike the character before seeing her. No, she will not have a romance with Legolas. No, she will not have a romance with Kili. And no, she will not admit to a "crush" on Thranduil, get shot down, pout about it, and free the Dwarves out of spite.

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.



Arannir
Valinor


May 7 2013, 6:58am

Post #18 of 34 (277 views)
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I am looking forward seeing her. [In reply to] Can't Post

Evangeline Lilly is quite an actress and I love the idea of her mentioning Glorfindel's Witch-king prophecy.

I also have the feeling that that line sounds as it sounds, because it seems she is not fluent in Westron.... could be wrong though. But it is really hard to judge that line out of context imho.



ďA dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of menís imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.Ē J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


emre43
Lorien

May 7 2013, 7:25am

Post #19 of 34 (268 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...I mean, there aren't any wargs outside Rivendell in the book, either and the world has not yet come to an end as a result of them showing up in the film... After enjoying 4 films by these filmmakers set in Middle Earth, I'm pretty much good with their decisions. I do respect your concerns, however--just prefer to see the ale glass as half full.Wink






Plus it's Evangeline Lilly Heart


DanielLB
Immortal


May 7 2013, 7:33am

Post #20 of 34 (298 views)
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My main concern with Tauriel is ... [In reply to] Can't Post

That everyone will actually like the character, and she won't be as half as annoying as people are expecting her to be. It'll mean that I'll have to go round saying "I told you so".

Wink


totoro
Lorien

May 7 2013, 7:40am

Post #21 of 34 (250 views)
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That is a pity [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That everyone will actually like the character, and she won't be as half as annoying as people are expecting her to be. It'll mean that I'll have to go round saying "I told you so".

Wink



Roheryn
Grey Havens

May 7 2013, 8:48am

Post #22 of 34 (238 views)
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*mods up* [In reply to] Can't Post

You're the voice of reason, Old Toby! Nicely said. I've got plenty of other things to worry about too, and this isn't one of them.

As I've said before (and I'm sure I'll say again): there's no point in getting our knickers in a twist.

However, if you want to worry about something, howzabout we start worrying about how majestic Thorin's hair will look as he bursts forth from Erebor to join the Bo5A? Or how majestic he looks in general in the snow entering Esgaroth? Or, really, let me worry about just how to coax that feline Thranduil down off his Megaloceros throne for a bit of Elvish besmirching...wait, I know I'm using that word wrong again. It just sounds like such fun. Wink


Roheryn
Grey Havens

May 7 2013, 9:32am

Post #23 of 34 (251 views)
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*smoothes out knickers* [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Beyond giving the piece a feminine touch (more than capable of being achieved by the inclusion of Galadriel alone), what does it achieve save yet more tinkering with our beloved book?


PJ is giving us a more complete picture of the societies encountered by Thorin and Co. About half the individuals in each one (okay, about a third, in Dwarves) should be female. And every one of these has a name. It doesnít seem much of a stretch to include one of these in the movie, name and all. I still strongly suspect that the main angst over Tauriel is driven by her gender, and that most of this angst would disappear if she were a he.

As for getting worried about Tauriel based on the preview footage, remember that what we saw there may bear little resemblance to how that scene comes out in the movie. A different take may be used, or the whole scene could be cut altogether. And because ADR is very common, the sound of her voice may be entirely different in the movie. We have no idea what just happened before the snippet we saw, nor what will happen afterwards. Thereís really too many unknowns.

And besides, we have NO idea how her storyline will play out. Her role could be not much more than that of Lindir. We just have to wait and see!

For what itís worth, Richard Armitage has said he hasnít seen Evangeline Lilly filming. This strongly suggests (at this point, at least) that Thorin and Tauriel have no scenes together. This could of course change after the upcoming bout of filming.


Bombadil
Half-elven


May 7 2013, 9:38am

Post #24 of 34 (204 views)
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Ditto from Bomby...with Old Toby and Rho! [In reply to] Can't Post

Speculating is one thing.

Pre-Hating? based on little evidence
is another.


Magpie
Immortal


May 7 2013, 12:20pm

Post #25 of 34 (204 views)
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oh hush now... [In reply to] Can't Post

we all have this lovely perfect conception of what Elves are like and we don't want that old Sil mucking things up now, do we?

:-)

I always have to shake my head when people want to assign attributes to Elves that demonstrate they've never met *those* Elves.


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