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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
With Dain Ironfoot's defining moment "STOLEN" from him in An Unexpected Journey
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Sinister71
Tol Eressea


May 5 2013, 11:43pm

Post #1 of 27 (1278 views)
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With Dain Ironfoot's defining moment "STOLEN" from him in An Unexpected Journey Can't Post

How are Peter Jackson and company going to make the audience feel for or be enthusiastic about Dain and his arrival since he already told Thorin he would not help?

I know its been sort of discussed before but since people rarely read (or at least post) past page one.

Personally I think Jackson has made a mistake by stealing Dain's key moment. The death of Azog at the battle of Azanulbizar. I have always thought of that as his defining moment. First upon killing Azog avenging not only his father but Thror as well and secondly for dissuading Thrain from entering Moria because he had seen Durin's Bane (the Balrog).

This is amazing dialogue from Tolkien and it is sad that the chance to hear these words on film is dead.

Dain Ironfoot: "We will not enter Khazad-dum. You will not enter Khazad-dum!"
"Only I have looked through the shadow of the gate."
" Beyond the shadow it waits for you still, Durins Bane."
"The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin’s folk walk again in Moria."

Without the character arc Tolkien wrote and the corner Jackson has painted Dain into. What can they do to make the audience feel for Dain and care that he becomes King under the Mountian?



Aragalen the Green
Gondor


May 5 2013, 11:55pm

Post #2 of 27 (658 views)
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Well, Azog's not dead yet! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm still thinking/hoping that Dain will have something to do with Azog's eventual demise, possibly with Thorin's involvement as well. I can't see them robbing Thorin of his revenge on Azog either, so I'm thinking Dain and Thorin will maybe fight him together? But not exactly as described in the books:

In Reply To
Dain Ironfoot: "We will not enter Khazad-dum. You will not enter Khazad-dum!"
"Only I have looked through the shadow of the gate."
" Beyond the shadow it waits for you still, Durins Bane."
"The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin’s folk walk again in Moria."


'"Never laugh at live dragons, Bilbo you fool!" he said to himself, and it became a favourite saying of his later, and passed into a proverb.'


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


May 6 2013, 12:09am

Post #3 of 27 (606 views)
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Hoping so [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Dain will have something to do with Azog's eventual demise,

I have to say I agree but I feel it loses most of its weight from the original context. I would love to see that but I feel it detracts from Dain's ascension to king under the mountain. I think Thorin should have no hand in Azog's death.... That and I'm not overly fond of the Aragorn-ization of Thorin to begin with. His character was IMO self centered and vain, not heroic like Jackson is portraying him. And the closer he came to reaching his goal the more so he became. So far I think the only change Jackson made with Thorin that made sense to me anyways was him arriving late to Bilbo's home. Other than that Armitage is doing a good job with the material he has been given but its not the Thorin Tolkien wrote. I just hope that they are thinking enough to put things right with Dain's character because he seems like an after thought to the films where as someone not as important (the necromancer) gets a much meatier role even if it is all made up.

Since Dain is one of my favorite Tolkien characters I would love to see him portrayed properly and feel that he is deserving of being king under the mountain. Not just some help that showed up in the 11th hour and was put in a position only because of Thorin's death.



(This post was edited by sinister71 on May 6 2013, 12:10am)


Aranaes
Rivendell


May 6 2013, 8:46am

Post #4 of 27 (444 views)
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There is still time....? [In reply to] Can't Post

With regard to Dain dissuading Thrain from entering Moria. Is it not possible that during DOS, Dain will come up in discussion again and we may get another flashback to the Battle of Azanulbizar following on from the last, showing that Dain was in fact present, and he sees Durin's Bane (already hinted at by the firey glow in the doorway?), and he does indeed get to say those wonderfull lines?


DuBekar
Rivendell


May 6 2013, 8:46am

Post #5 of 27 (464 views)
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Dain maybe killed Azog [In reply to] Can't Post

What if Dain actually killed Azog inside Moria when he is dragged in? And the Necromancer brought him back to life?

Naah, i really hope not :P

"Good morning!" he said at last. "We don't want any adventures here, thank you! You might try over The Hill or across The Water." By this he meant that the conversation was at an end.
"What a lot of things you do use Good morning for!" said Gandalf. "Now you mean that you want to get rid of me, and that it won't be good till I move off.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien


IdrilofGondolin
Rohan

May 6 2013, 1:38pm

Post #6 of 27 (365 views)
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Nice Job! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
What if Dain actually killed Azog inside Moria when he is dragged in? And the Necromancer brought him back to life?

Naah, i really hope not :P


People on this board are so inventive. While I don't love this idea because it strays so far from the book, it would help repair the mistake so many of us feel PJ made it the Azog story line.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


May 6 2013, 1:51pm

Post #7 of 27 (349 views)
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Thorin's revenge [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally, I am hoping that Thorin is denied revenge on Azog, so Dain can do what he was he was supposed to have done at Azanulbizar. I think Thorin has been "romanticized" enough, to the point that he and his story arc barely resemble the character that he is based upon. I know that fans of movie Thorin would probably call for Jackson's head if Thorin lost out on his revenge, but I think that it would be a good way for Jackson to do something unexpected, and, in my eyes, it would almost make up for the changes that he made to the histories of Thorin, Azog, and Dain.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on May 6 2013, 1:52pm)


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


May 6 2013, 1:56pm

Post #8 of 27 (326 views)
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Yep, agree with this [In reply to] Can't Post

Azog should die at the hands of Dain, and Dain alone, since he was robbed of his moment at Azanulbizar. Thorin gets more and more moody and insufferable as the story wears on, so hopefully Jackson plays on that and chips away at Thorin's likeability, so by the end there's no way anyone's rooting for him, and we can let Dain have his moment.


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 6 2013, 3:03pm

Post #9 of 27 (336 views)
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I certainly wouldn't like Thorin to be shown as completely unsympathetic [In reply to] Can't Post

At any stage. I prefer seeing him as a more complex, conflicted character, in the way PJ has portrayed him. He's far more interesting that way than he is in the book, which portrays him as a standard single-dimensional character who you don't see very clearly and don't like very much.


In Reply To
Azog should die at the hands of Dain, and Dain alone, since he was robbed of his moment at Azanulbizar. Thorin gets more and more moody and insufferable as the story wears on, so hopefully Jackson plays on that and chips away at Thorin's likeability, so by the end there's no way anyone's rooting for him, and we can let Dain have his moment.



Sinister71
Tol Eressea


May 6 2013, 4:29pm

Post #10 of 27 (322 views)
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But near the end [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin does become unsympathetic, he becomes greedy, his stubbornness blinds him. He does become very unlikeable. For his character arc to be successful IMO he needs to be almost hated at the end of the story. If not for one thing to redeem himself and make amends with Bilbo. To have all that emotion built up for the release when Thorin apologizes to Bilbo upon his death bed.


Quote
Personally, I am hoping that Thorin is denied revenge on Azog, so Dain can do what he was he was supposed to have done at Azanulbizar. I think Thorin has been "romanticized" enough, to the point that he and his story arc barely resemble the character that he is based upon. I know that fans of movie Thorin would probably call for Jackson's head if Thorin lost out on his revenge, but I think that it would be a good way for Jackson to do something unexpected, and, in my eyes, it would almost make up for the changes that he made to the histories of Thorin, Azog, and Dain.

I completely agree with this. I just would love to see Dain painted as someone we want to see made king, deserving of being made king under the mountain, instead of the picture Jackson has painted already of him


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 6 2013, 4:59pm

Post #11 of 27 (320 views)
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I can't say I ever hated Thorin after reading the book. [In reply to] Can't Post

In fact, I felt rather sorry for him given what Bilbo did to him (certainly not Bilbo's finest hour, in my perception).

Thorin suffered a lot over the years, so it is hardly surprising that he was so keen to regain his heritage.

No, I don't think Thorin should be hated in the end – I much prefer the direction PJ has taken with the characters, making them more complex and (to me) more interesting. And for me, the book is one thing, the film another. I would not be nearly as interested in a film rendition of the charming but relatively simple children's story that Tolkien wrote as I am in the film. I like it that the characters actually matter to me – those in the book, 'tra-la-la Elves' included, didn't, at all.


In Reply To
Thorin does become unsympathetic, he becomes greedy, his stubbornness blinds him. He does become very unlikeable. For his character arc to be successful IMO he needs to be almost hated at the end of the story. If not for one thing to redeem himself and make amends with Bilbo. To have all that emotion built up for the release when Thorin apologizes to Bilbo upon his death bed.



(This post was edited by Glorfindela on May 6 2013, 5:01pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


May 6 2013, 6:41pm

Post #12 of 27 (317 views)
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Bilbo did what needed to be done [In reply to] Can't Post

because of Thorin's blindness and stubbornness. He felt he had no other option and he did the right thing. Had it not been for Bilbo's actions there would have been no negotiations between the men, elves, and dwarfs. War would have been upon them before Gandalf made it back and then the Orcs/Goblins would have run all over the forces who would have been completely caught off guard. Thorin at this point in the story was blinded by greed, wanting all HIS treasure for himself and his kin, it had nothing to do with his heritage like Jackson is making up. Thorin's true demeanor can be seen by reading the last two and a half pages of "a gathering of clouds" chapter. If you read those it becomes obvious why Bilbo did what he did and for good reason.

I'm completely the opposite the characters from the book matter to me and I have no love for the made up direction Jackson has taken with wonderfully written simple characters. He has muddied the water by making up non existent scenarios and building false character arcs that are completely unnecessary to tell the story JRR Tolkien wrote on film. Thorin was no Aragorn type character in the story at all. He was a bitter angry dwarf who wanted to get his treasure and home back nothing more.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


May 6 2013, 9:03pm

Post #13 of 27 (244 views)
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Hating Thorin [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't ever go as far to say that I "hated" Thorin in the book, but I did feel as if he got what was coming to him. Throughout the book, I saw Thorin as a bitter old dwarf who was in way over his head, but his pride would not allow him to realize it. He showed himself to be a pretty incompetent leader throughout the story, and I felt that he had no right to be as arrogant as he was. In short, I felt that he would have made a terrible King under the Mountain. PJ's modifications to Thorin's backstory have made Thorin out to be more of a sympathetic figure than he should have been, at least in my humble opinion.


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 6 2013, 10:13pm

Post #14 of 27 (233 views)
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Sure they have – and it's something I don't mind [In reply to] Can't Post

That's because I didn't care anything about the characters in the book due to their sketchy portrayal, for the most part.

A straight translation from the book would have been far less interesting than what PJ has done, at least in my humble opinion. He has produced a vibrant, interesting film with wonderful characters, visuals and music, which I enjoy immensely. And that is all that matters to me unless the next two films somehow fall short – which I doubt.

Roll on December.


In Reply To
PJ's modifications to Thorin's backstory have made Thorin out to be more of a sympathetic figure than he should have been, at least in my humble opinion.



Aragalen the Green
Gondor


May 7 2013, 12:33am

Post #15 of 27 (197 views)
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You have a good point there. [In reply to] Can't Post

Particularly this statement:

In Reply To
That's because I didn't care anything about the characters in the book due to their sketchy portrayal, for the most part.


At first I didn't agree with you, but then I got to thinking about it, and realized that the characters are rather sketchy (!) But it actually makes sense, as the story is about Bilbo, and is mostly told from his point of view. We, as the audience, do get some backstory for the characters, but most of this is unknown to Bilbo at first. I think this quote from The Hobbit sums it up:

Quote
"By some curious chance one morning long ago ...Gandalf came by. Gandalf! if you had heard only a quarter of what I have heard about him, and I have only heard very little of all there is to hear, you would be prepared for any sort of remarkable tale...all that the unsuspecting Bilbo saw that morning was an old man with a staff." (The Hobbit, An Unexpected Party.)

Bilbo does know a little bit about Gandalf, but certainly not everything there was to know about Gandalf's true power. And I do agree, I love how PJ has given color and sound and personality to the movie that really brings The Hobbit to life.
Thanks!

'"Never laugh at live dragons, Bilbo you fool!" he said to himself, and it became a favourite saying of his later, and passed into a proverb.'


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 7 2013, 1:46am

Post #16 of 27 (188 views)
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What I would love as a salvage, Balrog et al, would be if Dain and Thorin were shown to have entered Moria, [In reply to] Can't Post

to assure themselves of the death of Azog and bring his corpse back as proof, and to seek Thrain. . . but had glimpsed together, within, the terror of The Balrog. . . and been so terrified that they, coming out, spoke of it to none. The secret would all but die with Thorin (save Dain and the audience). Dain might use the knowledge to dissuade Balin, but Balin, if he does indeed resent any aspect of Dain The King who did not come when first his King called, and over whom Thorin would therefore place more faith in any member of the company we meet, might scoff (or try to) at the account, and accuse Dain of resorting to legends of terror for dwarf children to dissuade him.

In Reply To
How are Peter Jackson and company going to make the audience feel for or be enthusiastic about Dain and his arrival since he already told Thorin he would not help?

I know its been sort of discussed before but since people rarely read (or at least post) past page one.

Personally I think Jackson has made a mistake by stealing Dain's key moment. The death of Azog at the battle of Azanulbizar. I have always thought of that as his defining moment. First upon killing Azog avenging not only his father but Thror as well and secondly for dissuading Thrain from entering Moria because he had seen Durin's Bane (the Balrog).

This is amazing dialogue from Tolkien and it is sad that the chance to hear these words on film is dead.

Dain Ironfoot: "We will not enter Khazad-dum. You will not enter Khazad-dum!"
"Only I have looked through the shadow of the gate."
" Beyond the shadow it waits for you still, Durins Bane."
"The world must change and some other power than ours must come before Durin’s folk walk again in Moria."

Without the character arc Tolkien wrote and the corner Jackson has painted Dain into. What can they do to make the audience feel for Dain and care that he becomes King under the Mountian?


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


flameofudun
Lorien

May 7 2013, 1:59am

Post #17 of 27 (171 views)
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i have had the exact same idea! [In reply to] Can't Post

everytime i watch the movie i always add in lines explaining this at the appropriate part in my head.Wink

''We are very dangerous over short distances''

-Gimli


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


May 7 2013, 2:41am

Post #18 of 27 (174 views)
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The sketchy dwarves [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll agree that the dwarves were basically faceless and interchangeable in the book, all except Thorin anyway. I got a pretty good picture in my head about Thorin from reading the book.

Anyway, I'm fine with Jackson wanting to beef up Thorin's backstory and make him out to be more heroic than he really was - my issues are with the changes to Tolkien's history. I realize that at this point, I'm basically crying over spilt milk, and I still highly enjoyed AUJ. But it still bugs me to see how badly PJ mangled the appendix material that he's used thus far. And in my opinion, the decision to keep Azog alive is the worst of it, which is why I dislike the "new & improved" Thorin backstory - because it pits Thorin against an orc that was supposed to have been killed 150 years prior by his (more competent) cousin, Dain Ironfoot. I feel that Dain (who was perhaps the most heroic of all the dwarves Tolkien wrote about) kind of got back-handed in the push to turn Thorin from haughty oaf into debonair war-hero, so I feel that allowing Dain to be the one to take care of Azog would be the right course of action. Right now, I think most moviegoers will want to see Azog get his comeuppance at the hands of Thorin, but as the story wears on, I think that may change as Thorin becomes more insufferable. Thorin never gets his payoff in the books, so I am hoping it stays that way for the films too.


totoro
Lorien

May 7 2013, 7:32am

Post #19 of 27 (164 views)
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I don't think Dain really cares he was robbed [In reply to] Can't Post

He is, after all, a fictional character. I only care if the story is good. Dain doesn't particularly matter to me. I barely remembered him after reading the Hobbit many years ago and I doubt my son remembers him now. He remembered the Necromancer, though. And Thorin.

In Reply To
Azog should die at the hands of Dain, and Dain alone, since he was robbed of his moment at Azanulbizar. Thorin gets more and more moody and insufferable as the story wears on, so hopefully Jackson plays on that and chips away at Thorin's likeability, so by the end there's no way anyone's rooting for him, and we can let Dain have his moment.



Glorfindela
Valinor


May 7 2013, 10:33am

Post #20 of 27 (144 views)
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Yes, that's what I feel. [In reply to] Can't Post

It's such a shame that people who are immersed in Tolkien's books cannot appreciate the films separately from the book. I wish, for them, that they could put aside the book and just focus on the film separately. It would make their film viewing experience so much more enjoyable. It's a long time since I reread The Hobbit, so perhaps that's why I can appreciate the film for what it is, without constantly referring to the book. To me, so far the film storyline makes sense logically (Azog included), and it captures the essence of Tolkien's Hobbit. Overall, I prefer it to the book, as mentioned.

I was initially much more disappointed with what was done with FOTR, after rereading the trilogy just before going to see the film. It was simply unrecognisable compared with the picture I had in my head. LOTR was an outstanding, groundbreaking work, but I still haven't reconciled myself to some of the casting choices and acting, which is something I cannot say for The Hobbit (so far).

Incidentally, I viewed the bonus material that came with the blu-ray DVD for the first time the other day. Since I paid no attention to the film before it came out (thinking it would mirror the book and would thus not be very interesting to me), I hadn't seen the material produced by PJ before. It astonished me how much work went into the production, and how much passion and skill PJ, the cast and crew put into the work. The technology involved in the making of the film is phenomenal – I simply cannot fathom how they managed to put together such a beautiful work, working with so many disparate elements. That's another thing I appreciate about The Hobbit.


In Reply To
He is, after all, a fictional character. I only care if the story is good. Dain doesn't particularly matter to me. I barely remembered him after reading the Hobbit many years ago and I doubt my son remembers him now. He remembered the Necromancer, though. And Thorin.

In Reply To


(This post was edited by Glorfindela on May 7 2013, 10:40am)


Arannir
Valinor


May 7 2013, 11:18am

Post #21 of 27 (160 views)
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Wow... [In reply to] Can't Post

...it is almost weird how much this represents my opinions on the movies and the books. :)


Although I can see why it is almost impossible for some fans to seperate them - since I had a similar problem with FotR. It is a legitimate choice, as well. But one that will make it very hard to get much enjoyment out of TH, I fear.

What I call "courageous" what PJ and Company did will likely be called "heresy and stupidity" by those, and I do not blame them. It is simply a totally different approach to those movies.



“A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of men’s imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold.” J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


May 7 2013, 12:45pm

Post #22 of 27 (123 views)
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I could probably separate the two if they were calling the film something other than the Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

but they ARE calling it the Hobbit. Which to me screams of Tolkien's book and sadly we are not getting the story of the Hobbit. Bilbo has become a passenger on Thorin and Gandalf's story instead, which is NOT the Hobbit. Maybe had they called the films something else I could be more forgiving but they chose not to. They chose to alter almost every scene from the Hobbit into something OTT and IMHO loosing all the charm of the original tale. Well except for the beginning of the film at Baggend of course Wink.

Baggend was changed but with only small changes, after that the iconic scenes were butchered into something different from the text. The trolls used very little of the books dialogue, they changed the whole scenario of why the dwarfs got caught and how the trolls turned to stone (I liked Gandalf's trickery much better than what we got). Then Gandalf's little speech with Bilbo about knowing when to spare a life, Does Jackson have to constantly rehash scenes from LOTR... (this whole scene stinks of Gandalf talking to Frodo in Moria) Stone giants was a nice added touch in the book, and I enjoyed them in the film until they began riding one then it became too OTT and impossible. Once the dwarfs started riding one I was waiting to see the ticket booth at Six Flags Then enter Azog came into the film, Peter Jackson's Azog, who is just a bunch of made up crap IMO, the only thing Tolkien about him is the characters name and nothing else. Radagast, nothing to say but what a joke. His leading the orcs away only led them closer and all they were doing was running in circles. Truly a horrible scene IMO. I liked the look of him for the most part with the exception of his birdy hair gel, but his dialogue was awful. Riddles in the dark was close but there were changes there I thought were better in the book. I hated Bilbo's finding of the ring in this film I felt it was handled much better in FOTR. Plus I preferred Bilbo following Gollum to the exit not running around blindly till he is closer to the exit then following him, and what of the goblins at the back door? THAT would have made for a much better scene. Goblin Town was ok when it wasn't Indiana Jones and the temple of Doom, But then again they had to show off all the "wonderful" CG and 3D technology didn't they? Next we Have Thorin's made up charge, he no more than gets to Azog and gets his butt handed to him. What a fight that was. And then Bilbo runs in sword blazing like Conan the Barbarian, to save the day. Which IMO was way too early in the story for him to step up. Bilbo doesn't step up until the spiders. Then we have the eagles dropping the dwarfs off in view of the lonely mountain, which was what at least a few hundred miles away, but in the film looks like it is what 3 or 4 miles tops. The book scenarios were much better IMO


As to people not remembering Dain, How can people forget him? He becomes King under the mountain. He IS and important character. the necromancer not so much in the Hobbit... LOTR sure Sauron is the big bad guy, the holy terror, the end all be all of middle earth. The Hobbit he is two sentences. Nothing more! Only care if the story is good. well I care if the story is right. And it is not. I'll give props to all the hard work that went into the film. I have no issues with that everyone needs to work, and I am glad they did all their hard work. But its the (IMO) subpar script that was written, the constant changes that are unnecessary, the disrespect shown to the source material by the constant lying about "125 pages of material related to the hobbit in the appendices" which is more like 11 at most.

I will say I think parts of this film are brilliant but that was where Jackson stuck to what Tolkien wrote IMO. everything else about the Hobbit AUJ is lacking in story when it comes to what Tolkien wrote. Jackson was more concerned with changing the story instead of telling the story. Maybe people would have liked a faithful version of the Hobbit if they were given a chance to enjoy it.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


May 7 2013, 1:29pm

Post #23 of 27 (119 views)
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I'm sure Dain does not feel robbed... [In reply to] Can't Post

because, as you said, he's a fictional character. That isn't my point though. My point is that, aside from seeing a good story, I want to see Tolkien's story, not Peter Jackson's story. If, after his derailing of the story, Jackson can find ways to veer the story back to what Tolkien wrote, then I believe that's the way to go. I don't hear complaints about book Thorin not getting his payoff, so why couldn't film Thorin not get his payoff either?

As for the Necromancer, he makes up all of two or three sentences in the book, and we never even see him in action. Dain is in command of the one of the 5 armies that the climactic battle is named for, PLUS becomes King under the Mountain.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on May 7 2013, 1:32pm)


Sinister71
Tol Eressea


May 7 2013, 1:38pm

Post #24 of 27 (107 views)
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Completely Agree // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


May 7 2013, 1:51pm

Post #25 of 27 (104 views)
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As one headline put it... [In reply to] Can't Post

 it's "The Hobbit on Steroids" Wink

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