Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
The Hobbit: The Humiliation of Mithrandir
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All

AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 6:24pm

Post #51 of 86 (555 views)
Shortcut
No, it won't. Because to learn the lesson, one must be corrected. What are the odds of [In reply to] Can't Post

millions of people who base their knowledge of the world on the films and never see the books ever being properly corrected in the erroneous conclusions that they draw? Unless they have a more lorelearned friend on hand to bring The Good News lol.

Again, your take is already coloured by your knowledge. You KNOW what he is, you KNOW who is who and how they relate. You would never ask, as the husband of a member of these boards did according to her, "So, is Galadriel one of the Wizards?" It would never occur to you, unless they directly and blatantly stated otherwise, that Galadriel was Gandalf's executive superior.

My concern is multifaceted, but one thing I have never feared is that people steeped in the novels will be brainwashed into a misunderstanding of the hierarchy of Arda. A major concern is that millions of viewers who don't know any better will be seriously mislead about the respective status of some of the most significant figures in the legendarium, in a way that will never be corrected.

You say anyone getting the wrong idea will have it corrected in the long run. To quote Sir Ian, "You know this? How?" And, in much the same tone as he uses when asking "Are we? Are we at peace?" I ask, how can you be certain of this. My fear is that it WON'T be corrected, but rather reinforced. I hope I am wrong.

Yes, he will be proven right, but will he be the Wise equal being proven right to peers, or the underling who happens to be on to something, as his even wiser Supereior Officer Galadriel rightly percieves?

The problem here is that the subtext and inferrences lean in the opposite direction of the facts. The scenes almost beg to be misread on this matter. How to determine people's perceptions? A little less bowing and scraping from a Holy Spirit to an Elf Queen might be a good start. A little sharing of sage advice between himself and the lady, rather than a seeminlgy one sided matter etc. etc.

And handling the Dol Guldur situation with tact! Allowing Galadriel to be shown for the mighty being that she is WITHOUT making her appear to far exceed even the embodied Maiar or to blow the rest of The Council out of the water, or to be invulnerable to the forces that are hindering the others.

In Reply To
it will be a chance for them to learn not to judge by appearances, won't it?

What I explained in my post was my reaction to the scene on first viewing, and it's only been strengthened by further watching. It's how I instinctively read the characters as acted out onscreen, not how I have envisioned them in my head from much reading (that's rather different, actually). The White Council meeting feels awkward (intentionally, I think) but it doesn't deter Gandalf from his plans or prevent the dwarves from carrying on with theirs, and it demonstrates that Galadriel has placed herself on Gandalf's team and that Saruman is going to be the roadblock to doing anything about the Necromancer. It's enough to be going on with, until we see how further evidence results in the attack on Dol Guldur in the next movie or perhaps two.

The next two movies will show Gandalf being proved right and his plans to take out the dragon and search out the truth of the Necromancer succeeding (even if the attack on Dol Guldur doesn't - and that fact sets up for the rise of Sauron). And then there's LOTR, where Gandalf fulfills his mission as the Enemy of Sauron and sails West in the company of Elrond and Galadriel, who show nothing but respect for him. If someone gets the wrong idea now, it will likely be corrected in the long run, and I'm content to let it play out because the overall outcome is assured. You see, I know how the story ends. Wink

Besides, if there's one thing I've learned in over a decade of fandom, it's that people will have as many different reactions to and interpretations of the same thing as you could possibly think of, and even some you couldn't. One can't control others' perceptions, and I think it's futile to try, or to worry overmuch about it. Some people pick up on subtext, others don't. It doesn't mean everything has to be spelled out for everyone in words of one syllable. How exactly could you make sure that everyone who watches the movie understands everything without spelling it out too plainly? I prefer a little ambiguity - even a little misdirection and the occasional smokescreen - to that, even if it means someone somewhere doesn't "get" it.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 6:41pm

Post #52 of 86 (540 views)
Shortcut
Lol. I am under 40 in this incarnation lol. But the rest could happen. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


AinurOlorin : I just imagined 40 something Tolkien geek at a highway, dressed in the manner of the druids or wizards, with a long, wooden staff, shouting to the said merchandise trucks : YOUUUU SHALL NOOOOOOT PAAAAAASSSS!!

Wink


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 6:54pm

Post #53 of 86 (561 views)
Shortcut
My dear Radagast. . . don't you just HATE it when some significant matter is erroneously (and eggregiously so) portrayed [In reply to] Can't Post

in the movies, and you get filled with righteous indiganation over it. . . only to have some of your own Ringer kin folk come in tweeting about how "well. . . it isn't so bad really, most people will probably (somehow magically even if they don't know the facts) see through to the way it is meant to be", yak yak yak, poor justification, worse justification, hallucination. . . . . Worst yet. . . the outright defenders of Heresy. Frown Sigh.


All you can say is. . . "Et Tu, Brutus?! . . . DAMN!" lol

I sometimes wonder. . . how far off of from the source would Jackson and Boyens and Walsh have to go before everyone unanimously said, "WTF? And put the breaks on things."

"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 7:25pm

Post #54 of 86 (527 views)
Shortcut
Where would you get this idea? [In reply to] Can't Post

The three Wizards who were part of the White Council are Maiar, basically gods to elves, men, dwarves, and hobbits. The spirits of Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, are older than Arda (the world) itself, and the three of them had a part in the music that created the world. So while the physical forms that these three cloaked themselves in could be slain by lesser beings, there is still NO elf that could, under any circumstance, be considered "more powerful" than any of the Wizards. By the very nature of the Wizards, they are superior to elves. And of those 3 wizards, Radagast is portrayed by Tolkien as the weakest. So Gandalf was at least the second-most powerful member of the Council, and some would say THE most powerful.

At the time of the Quest for Erebor, the most powerful beings in Middle-earth that we know of would have been, in no particular order, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Durin's Bane, and the two Blue Wizards (Alatar and Pallando). I didn't include Bombadil because no one is sure exactly what he is.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 7:44pm

Post #55 of 86 (528 views)
Shortcut
While I certainly do hope for a more faithful adaptation one day... [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't help but feel that if it were left up to the Tolkien Estate, and Christopher Tolkien in particular, we would never have gotten any films at all. He's gone on the record as saying that his dad's books were "...peculiarly unsuitable to transformation into visual dramatic form."


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


May 3 2013, 8:23pm

Post #56 of 86 (505 views)
Shortcut
Agreed Master Olorin [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm quite surprised at how smoothly some of the fans here have taken it: at least I'm glad that you agree with me on the whole. Sadly if PJ does do what I'm dreading then it might take the full-on shake-up (i.e. the content of film two) to make people realize just how wrong all of this is.

Some people are saying that they would actually like to see the scenario I discussed? Oh dear me....

"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


May 3 2013, 8:27pm

Post #57 of 86 (502 views)
Shortcut
Casual filmgoers aren't interested, true. We fans ARE interested, and very much so// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."


Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 8:28pm

Post #58 of 86 (533 views)
Shortcut
Hallucination? Heresy? Righteous Indignation? [In reply to] Can't Post

A bit dramatic, isn't it Cool But I guess one becomes like this after going through fire, water, death and the hands of the White Lady Blush

I guess, those of us who disagree with you can ask you the same questions. How do you know that people will get the wrong picture when several people here seem to have interpreted the scene in a totally diferent way than what you fear? And have talked to people without deeper knowledge who also did not feel like you?

So we all know people who know people who thought whatever we thought. Noone is more right after that, I guess.

And although you will probably burn me on all the stakes of Middle-earth for this: If there should be some regular moviegoer out there who thinks exactly like you fear, believing that Galadriel is the lady superior to poor old Gandalf and is never proven otherwise because he does not care for the lore outside of the movies... then... and now comes what signs my death sentence... will this not dimish the lore, the books or the movies in any way to those who do care and know. Neither will it dimish it for the guy who just enjoyed (or hated) the movie but couldn't care less about the legendarium. For a regular non-Tolkien-fan moviegoer this is not a gamechanger, in whatever way they interpret the scene. For this, Gandalf's role simply is too large and highlighted compared to Galadriel.

In the handling of Galadriel/Gandalf I have certainly not seen anything yet that would call for a plea to PJ, PB and FW. Because, even without any further knowledge, I simply did not see a superior and an inferior, but two being that do care deeply for another, one of them being the great guy who has sacrificed everything he has in all the movies we have met him so far, for the greater good. And that is what counts, also in Tolkien's spirit imho.


And yes, I call myself a massive Tolkien fan and lore freak ;)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 8:51pm

Post #59 of 86 (531 views)
Shortcut
You are absolutely right. And Bombadil is Maiar. We confirmed it during a long chat. [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink lol. It isn't specified, but then neither was the nature of The Wizards, The Balrog or Sauron at the time of the novels publication. It was known that The Wizards were sent by the Valar from The Far West, that Melian was of the People of The Valar etc., but no specifics were givien beyond that. When considered, there is nothing else that a powerful Immortal like Bombadil COULD be, save a Maiar who entered the world in the distant past, and, like Melain though with different reasoning, decided to remain. There are certainly others, not recorded and of less power or presence than Bombadil, who dwelt in the woods and rivers. . . nature spirits, if you will, but still Holy in origin. If Melain, Sauron, The Balrogs and Wizards did not have their natures explicitly stated, they like Bombadil would have fallen into the, "What ARE You?" Category. Indeed, Pippin asks exactly that question. " . . . and Gandalf was older (than Denethor). Far older. How much older?. . . What was Gandalf?! At what far off place and time had he come into the World, and when would he leave it again."

Agreed otherwise. Gandalf was, indeed, the second mightiest of The Wizards order, though he appeared less majestic than the others (well, exempting Radagast if you go by the film's version lol). "The two Highest of this Order, of whom it is said there were five, were called by the Elves Mithrandir and Curinir, but by the Men of The North Gandalf and Saruman."

In Reply To
The three Wizards who were part of the White Council are Maiar, basically gods to elves, men, dwarves, and hobbits. The spirits of Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, are older than Arda (the world) itself, and the three of them had a part in the music that created the world. So while the physical forms that these three cloaked themselves in could be slain by lesser beings, there is still NO elf that could, under any circumstance, be considered "more powerful" than any of the Wizards. By the very nature of the Wizards, they are superior to elves. And of those 3 wizards, Radagast is portrayed by Tolkien as the weakest. So Gandalf was at least the second-most powerful member of the Council, and some would say THE most powerful.

At the time of the Quest for Erebor, the most powerful beings in Middle-earth that we know of would have been, in no particular order, Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Durin's Bane, and the two Blue Wizards (Alatar and Pallando). I didn't include Bombadil because no one is sure exactly what he is.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 9:17pm

Post #60 of 86 (518 views)
Shortcut
I have tried to resign myself (and not always triumphantly) to the fact that some fans, even among those who know better, [In reply to] Can't Post

will make a lot of allowance for error in these films. And error is different from taking leeway to fill in the blanks. I love the movies, and have seldom complained when license was taken to add detail to a span of time or scene not detailed in the novels, but which might have happened in the empty space.

However, I have seen defenses of blatant, bold contradictions that were entirely unecessary. It is entirely possible to show Galadriel as great and powerful, and to have that feminine might on display, without diminishing The Ainur who have come to aid and guide all, including The Elves.

Different people get upset about different things. Not everyone gets put out, even at dramatic and potentially damaging, lasting alterations. My great fear when people are complacent is that the filmmakers will, if they become aware of the capitulation, take it as carte blanche to go ahead with the worst of their fabrications, or to push the boundaries even further.

In Reply To
I'm quite surprised at how smoothly some of the fans here have taken it: at least I'm glad that you agree with me on the whole. Sadly if PJ does do what I'm dreading then it might take the full-on shake-up (i.e. the content of film two) to make people realize just how wrong all of this is.

Some people are saying that they would actually like to see the scenario I discussed? Oh dear me....


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Rostron2
Gondor


May 3 2013, 9:24pm

Post #61 of 86 (498 views)
Shortcut
Thank you // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Arannir
Valinor

May 3 2013, 10:08pm

Post #62 of 86 (493 views)
Shortcut
The thing is... [In reply to] Can't Post

... that not everybody sees the matter at hand here as a blatant, bold contradiction. So for those in that camp (like me) this has nothing to do with making excuses for errors at all.

Reasons have been given plenty here... and some nice quotes too.


But, once more, the nice thing about all this is that it is the love for those novels that stirrs all those discussions - from both sides. Just wanted to underline that before anything gets too heated :)



In Reply To


However, I have seen defenses of blatant, bold contradictions that were entirely unecessary. It is entirely possible to show Galadriel as great and powerful, and to have that feminine might on display, without diminishing The Ainur who have come to aid and guide all, including The Elves.


___

A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 3 2013, 10:19pm

Post #63 of 86 (515 views)
Shortcut
It didn't even occur to me that Gandalf seemed somehow inferior to Galadriel [In reply to] Can't Post

What I saw was affection and respect between them (and that they were on the same wavelength), but certainly no indication that Gandalf was in some way subordinate to Galadriel and I've seen the film at least 20 times.

Not sure why these differences in perception arise.


In Reply To
In the handling of Galadriel/Gandalf I have certainly not seen anything yet that would call for a plea to PJ, PB and FW. Because, even without any further knowledge, I simply did not see a superior and an inferior, but two being that do care deeply for another, one of them being the great guy who has sacrificed everything he has in all the movies we have met him so far, for the greater good. And that is what counts, also in Tolkien's spirit imho.


And yes, I call myself a massive Tolkien fan and lore freak ;)



AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 10:25pm

Post #64 of 86 (517 views)
Shortcut
The fact is, for at least the next couple decades in all likelyhood, due to the massive popularity of these movies [In reply to] Can't Post

the image of Gandalf they portray is going to be the one that is most fixed in the majority pop culture concioussness. Any facts of the book left out or altered for the film will likely become as lost, at least for a time, to the lay viewer and the popular conciousness, beyond hard fans and loremasters, as the knowledge that Glinda was not the witch of the North, and that there were Four, not three, great witches in Oz. Only readers and people who saw The Wiz know that now.

I think it would be a shameful matter if the popular notion of Gandalf became fixed as something just shy of a lackey to Galadriel, as much as I love her character. I hope that they do not push things any further in that direction, nor make it seem as though Galadriel is such a powerhouse as to easily overwhelm any of the Wizards, or make them unecessary or irrelevant subordinate figures.

In Reply To
A bit dramatic, isn't it Cool But I guess one becomes like this after going through fire, water, death and the hands of the White Lady Blush

I guess, those of us who disagree with you can ask you the same questions. How do you know that people will get the wrong picture when several people here seem to have interpreted the scene in a totally diferent way than what you fear? And have talked to people without deeper knowledge who also did not feel like you?

So we all know people who know people who thought whatever we thought. Noone is more right after that, I guess.

And although you will probably burn me on all the stakes of Middle-earth for this: If there should be some regular moviegoer out there who thinks exactly like you fear, believing that Galadriel is the lady superior to poor old Gandalf and is never proven otherwise because he does not care for the lore outside of the movies... then... and now comes what signs my death sentence... will this not dimish the lore, the books or the movies in any way to those who do care and know. Neither will it dimish it for the guy who just enjoyed (or hated) the movie but couldn't care less about the legendarium. For a regular non-Tolkien-fan moviegoer this is not a gamechanger, in whatever way they interpret the scene. For this, Gandalf's role simply is too large and highlighted compared to Galadriel.

In the handling of Galadriel/Gandalf I have certainly not seen anything yet that would call for a plea to PJ, PB and FW. Because, even without any further knowledge, I simply did not see a superior and an inferior, but two being that do care deeply for another, one of them being the great guy who has sacrificed everything he has in all the movies we have met him so far, for the greater good. And that is what counts, also in Tolkien's spirit imho.


And yes, I call myself a massive Tolkien fan and lore freak ;)


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


TheSexyBeard
Lorien


May 3 2013, 10:28pm

Post #65 of 86 (498 views)
Shortcut
Same here [In reply to] Can't Post

To me, the way Galadriel is introduced is to fool the audience into thinking she's the one in charge until Saruman in revealed. I also felt she came across supportive and encouraging towards Gandalf rather than superior. I seriously don't get where Gandalf being everyone's subordinate is coming from.

Yes, my username is terrible.


Na Vedui
Rohan

May 4 2013, 12:12am

Post #66 of 86 (474 views)
Shortcut
Subtexts - and teamwork [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I read the scene pretty much as you did, Silverlode, with regard to the subtexts going on underneath - possibly excepting Elrond, which I saw more as just a hasty "look out, Gandalf, we've got visitors!" so that Gandalf didn't face them entirely unprepared. But you may be right, and poor Elrond has had his ear bent already about "*** Gandalf doing his own thing again" etc etc.!

And I did see the Galadriel-first as a bit of dramatic misdirection, especially for people who know Galadriel and Saruman already, from LOTR (films or the book). If you know about the White Council too, it goes like "Galadriel? well, that's ok, she and Gandalf generally see eye to eye, so what's Elrond fussed about?... ah, wait a minute, does that also mean..? Oh yikes, yes, he's here as well; this is going to be a difficult meeting..."

Also: Regardless of any ultimate hierarchy, all the members of the White Council are answerable to the other Council members for any action of theirs which may rock the Council boat. It's like being part of a project team at work, you are responsible to the team for your actions(good or bad) in respect of that project and its agreed aims - even if some members of the project team are on a less senior level than you or even subordinate to you in the management structure. That's how I read Gandalf's relationship with the other three - mutual answerability (the project being guardianship of Middle-earth) - and maybe even people who don't know the intricacies of Maiar and Elves will have workplace experience to help them read it that way.


There&ThereAgain
Rohan


May 4 2013, 12:17am

Post #67 of 86 (473 views)
Shortcut
Your argument doesn't work at all [In reply to] Can't Post

Because the Marvel films are not faithful to the comic books in anyway whatsoever. They are actually a whole new universe sprung from some iconic moments, classic characters and new ideas.

I'm pretty sure PJ has earned his stripes. I mean he is a HUGE fan although there are people who are probably bigger Middle-Earth fans (Christopher Lee). It's not like he's JJ Abrams who didn't even LIKE Star Trek before directing TWO Star Trek films.

"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien

"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas

(This post was edited by There&ThereAgain on May 4 2013, 12:18am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 4 2013, 12:39am

Post #68 of 86 (470 views)
Shortcut
Yet how much of that is because you already knew better, and your foreknowledge informed your perception and interpretation? [In reply to] Can't Post

Consider, however, the casual observer. Starting with the "it is not me to whom you must answer,". Yes, we know this is a head fake once we see Saruman, and in part that is informed by our "but Galadriel isn't in command of Gandalf," inside knowledge. For casual observers though, there is nothing clarifying that he isn't answerable to both of them, and the film makers hold out that possibility far longer than they should.

Coming to it cold and without foreknowledge (you admit that yu already have some knowledge, I think, and certainly you have been favourable to the interpretations in most regards) it could all too easily seem that way.

In Reply To
What I saw was affection and respect between them (and that they were on the same wavelength), but certainly no indication that Gandalf was in some way subordinate to Galadriel and I've seen the film at least 20 times.

Not sure why these differences in perception arise.


In Reply To
In the handling of Galadriel/Gandalf I have certainly not seen anything yet that would call for a plea to PJ, PB and FW. Because, even without any further knowledge, I simply did not see a superior and an inferior, but two being that do care deeply for another, one of them being the great guy who has sacrificed everything he has in all the movies we have met him so far, for the greater good. And that is what counts, also in Tolkien's spirit imho.


And yes, I call myself a massive Tolkien fan and lore freak ;)



"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 4 2013, 3:05am

Post #69 of 86 (469 views)
Shortcut
Eh.... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sorry to say that my reaction to some nameless person forever going through life misunderstanding the true relationships of the White Council is simply this: So what? If they never get around to reading the books, or (if reading is not their thing) joining a fan group where they might be corrected, then likely this story and all its multitudinous details simply don't mean enough to them to make a little misunderstanding a problem. Those who want to know will find out. Those who don't care, won't....and it won't matter at all, because it's not part of their life. The world will not end. Nothing will be damaged. Tolkien's reputation won't falter in the slightest, because these people will either have enjoyed the story enough to be a casual fan and therefore appreciative of him in spite of what they do not know, or they didn't really like the story in which case this particular misunderstanding will be absorbed in their general indifference. I don't believe for a second that anyone but a died-in-the-wool fan is going to dislike this story on account of the relational dynamics in one scene.

The only people this matters to are here, and in places like this. And anyone who comes here will find out, not only this, but all kinds of stuff they didn't know before. Call me NARF, but much as I truly love these stories and the world of Middle-earth (enough to be here daily for 13 years now!), I do not worship them or think it is healthy that anyone should, and the fact that not everyone shares my liking for them doesn't bother me at all.

Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 4 2013, 3:34am

Post #70 of 86 (453 views)
Shortcut
That last bit [In reply to] Can't Post

of Elrond's subtext is optional, depending on the eye of the beholder. But it seems to me that the disapproval in his glance is a little too much for just the fact that Saruman is upset - something has happened to incur Elrond's disapproval too. Let's look at the progression of events:

Gandalf shows up with a bunch of dwarves, having led orcs/goblins right up to one of the entrances of Rivendell, and is greeted cheerfully and in a friendly manner by Elrond. Not too long after, Elrond finds out what the dwarves are up to. I don't get the sense in the map reading scene that Elrond is personally immediately opposed to the idea, he merely says that "Some would not deem it wise", not "I do not think it wise". Who, then, deems it not wise? When Galadriel hears about it, she doesn't seem horrified; she's much more worried about the Necromancer, and even seems amused at the dwarves' secret getaway. Must be Saruman. Somewhere between those two scenes with Elrond, an indignant Saruman has showed up, being angry enough to travel all the way from Isengard to chew Gandalf out about his machinations, and Elrond knows what he's steamed up about, which means he's already had an earful. That's how I see both Elrond's tone in the line about guardians, and also the touch of ironic amusement I fancy I see in his face when Gandalf is greeting Galadriel and gets blindsided by Saruman's presence. In fact, not telling Gandalf just whom to expect may be Elrond getting a little gentle revenge...and if that's not the act of a friend and equal, I don't know what is. Wink

And of course, this brings up an interesting question. If neither Elrond nor Galadriel knew what Gandalf was planning, and Radagast has only talked to Gandalf, then just what did Saruman hear that sent him storming up to Rivendell for an impromptu meeting, and how did he hear it? And it has to be an unscheduled meeting, or Gandalf would have expected to see him there, as well as Galadriel. Azog's not the only one with surprisingly good intelligence on the location and aims of Thorin and company.



Quote
The only one I saw a little differently was Elrond. I didn't see that last sentence.


Silverlode

"Dark is the water of Kheled-zram, and cold are the springs of Kibil-nla, and fair were the many-pillared halls of Khazad-dm in Elder Days before the fall of mighty kings beneath the stone."



Darkstone
Immortal


May 4 2013, 3:53am

Post #71 of 86 (466 views)
Shortcut
Narf! [In reply to] Can't Post

Yep, some of us just ain't as real fans as some others.

I may not be a real fan, but I'm proud to be Narf!!

We few, we narfy few,
We band of brothers (and sisters);
For he (and she) that reads LOTR
Shall be my brother (or sister); be he (or she) ne'er so vile,
That act shall gentle his (or her) condition:
And gentlemen (and gentlewomen) now immersed in Stephenie Meyer
Shall think themselves accursed they were not there,
With those who have read LOTR!

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.



(This post was edited by Darkstone on May 4 2013, 3:56am)


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 4 2013, 5:21am

Post #72 of 86 (446 views)
Shortcut
One person, perhaps. Millions of them. . . another matter. The notion [In reply to] Can't Post

of the general banter (and we all know what banter sounds like amongst quasi fans. . . those who have seen all the movies in this or that cosmology, but are not steeped in the original books, comics etc., or the subsequent works) concerning Gandalf long being set in certain circles as, "the least ranking member of The Wizards and Elves Council," or people sagely telling their friends about how, "Gandalf was like Galadriel's special helper, and she directed him to investigate. . . ", or potential general talk of how much more powerful Galadriel was than the Wizards, or versus banter of how she would easily have defeated The Balrog. . . yuuuuuua. . . crikey. . . it gives me the rickets and shivers.


I don't mind people not being all that interested in the story. I do mind people who are interested, if only on a surface level, having all the wrong information. I can certainly live with it, but I would rather it not turn out that way.

In Reply To
I'm sorry to say that my reaction to some nameless person forever going through life misunderstanding the true relationships of the White Council is simply this: So what? If they never get around to reading the books, or (if reading is not their thing) joining a fan group where they might be corrected, then likely this story and all its multitudinous details simply don't mean enough to them to make a little misunderstanding a problem. Those who want to know will find out. Those who don't care, won't....and it won't matter at all, because it's not part of their life. The world will not end. Nothing will be damaged. Tolkien's reputation won't falter in the slightest, because these people will either have enjoyed the story enough to be a casual fan and therefore appreciative of him in spite of what they do not know, or they didn't really like the story in which case this particular misunderstanding will be absorbed in their general indifference. I don't believe for a second that anyone but a died-in-the-wool fan is going to dislike this story on account of the relational dynamics in one scene.

The only people this matters to are here, and in places like this. And anyone who comes here will find out, not only this, but all kinds of stuff they didn't know before. Call me NARF, but much as I truly love these stories and the world of Middle-earth (enough to be here daily for 13 years now!), I do not worship them or think it is healthy that anyone should, and the fact that not everyone shares my liking for them doesn't bother me at all.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 4 2013, 5:25am

Post #73 of 86 (438 views)
Shortcut
And yet the joke is on Elrond, for Gandalf was, if we read it that way, clearly a step if not three [In reply to] Can't Post

ahead of him. . . and of the audience. He had already set a plan in motion that would foil Saruman, and surprise Elrond and Galadriel alike. Though what it would foil Saruman from doing, I am not sure. How exactly did he intend to halt a belligerent Throin, short of force, which he wasn't supposed to use in that way for such a purpose.

In Reply To
of Elrond's subtext is optional, depending on the eye of the beholder. But it seems to me that the disapproval in his glance is a little too much for just the fact that Saruman is upset - something has happened to incur Elrond's disapproval too. Let's look at the progression of events:

Gandalf shows up with a bunch of dwarves, having led orcs/goblins right up to one of the entrances of Rivendell, and is greeted cheerfully and in a friendly manner by Elrond. Not too long after, Elrond finds out what the dwarves are up to. I don't get the sense in the map reading scene that Elrond is personally immediately opposed to the idea, he merely says that "Some would not deem it wise", not "I do not think it wise". Who, then, deems it not wise? When Galadriel hears about it, she doesn't seem horrified; she's much more worried about the Necromancer, and even seems amused at the dwarves' secret getaway. Must be Saruman. Somewhere between those two scenes with Elrond, an indignant Saruman has showed up, being angry enough to travel all the way from Isengard to chew Gandalf out about his machinations, and Elrond knows what he's steamed up about, which means he's already had an earful. That's how I see both Elrond's tone in the line about guardians, and also the touch of ironic amusement I fancy I see in his face when Gandalf is greeting Galadriel and gets blindsided by Saruman's presence. In fact, not telling Gandalf just whom to expect may be Elrond getting a little gentle revenge...and if that's not the act of a friend and equal, I don't know what is. Wink

And of course, this brings up an interesting question. If neither Elrond nor Galadriel knew what Gandalf was planning, and Radagast has only talked to Gandalf, then just what did Saruman hear that sent him storming up to Rivendell for an impromptu meeting, and how did he hear it? And it has to be an unscheduled meeting, or Gandalf would have expected to see him there, as well as Galadriel. Azog's not the only one with surprisingly good intelligence on the location and aims of Thorin and company.



Quote
The only one I saw a little differently was Elrond. I didn't see that last sentence.



"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


elaen32
Gondor

May 4 2013, 7:14am

Post #74 of 86 (415 views)
Shortcut
I agree wholeheartedly, Silverlode [In reply to] Can't Post

I was going to post something to similar effect, then saw your post, which was more eloquent than I might have managed at present.
I do think that Galadriel appears to be the superior, but only momentarily until Saruman is revealed. After that, she appears Gandalf's equal, at best,imo. On greeting her, Gandalf bows to her as a matter of etiquette, since she is a ruler of her people. In RotK, Gandalf bows his head to Aragorn on the battle field after the Battle of Pelennor Fields in a similar manner, acknowledging him as king, not as Gandalf's superior. Going back to the WC, after the meeting, Galadriel comes over as sympathetic and supportive, rather than superior. I always like to think that she knew him as Olorin in Aman and now feels pity seeing such a great spirit suffering the privations of the body of an old Man. I realise that the casual fan will be unaware of this sort of back story, but I think these films are for all to enjoy at their own level. And if they don't realise the true hierarchy of the WC, as you say, the world is not going to end.

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Arannir
Valinor

May 4 2013, 8:18am

Post #75 of 86 (420 views)
Shortcut
The millions seem unlikely... [In reply to] Can't Post

... as A LOT of people apparantly do not even get the understanding of the superior thing that you fear. Those conversation among "quasi-fans" as you call them seem really a bit hyperbole to me. I have yet to meet anyone who spend much time on thinking about the hierarchy of Middle-earth after watching AUJ.

You seem to totally ignore all arguments made in that direction.

Other than that I fully agree with Silverlode.

___

A dragon is no idle fancy. Whatever may be his origins, in fact or invention, the dragon in legend is a potent creation of mens imagination, richer in significance than his barrow is in gold. J.R.R. Tolkien

Words of wisdom that should be remembered - both by critics, purists and anyone in between.

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.