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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Chapter 11: Of the Sun and the Moon and the Hiding of Valinor
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Brethil
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 4:32pm

Post #51 of 99 (164 views)
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Memorials - amazing insights here [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes in the brief span of the Victorian era to now, the changes in both life expectancy, quality and styles of mourning have both changed. It seems like the Victorian era had a focus on the 'passing' and loss that they needed daily symbols of. It seems like Death was just dogging their footsteps really, it was on their minds a lot. And today (in US culture, and would tentatively say UK) we definitely go for more central, life affirming and even a model of 'celebrating life' and having less heavy, permanent 'in your face' symbols of grief. Even the Ground Zero memorial (went in to see it last year) is really lovely and peaceful, with the water element especially. So I do see a deeper connection in your idea there.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 4:43pm

Post #52 of 99 (164 views)
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You echo my thoughts here Mac [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

for the elves... i feel, despite all their great gifts, they really never had a full shot at growing within arda the way that the edain did. the valar hurried them to aman, as many of them as they could as soon as they could. on the mainland they had somewhat stunted growth, and in aman, it was if they were in a wonderful university from which they never graduated (at least those who stayed).

at least the noldor who returned to the mainland were fulfilling eru's main objective, even though their motivations varied (and, among some, were deplorable). so the elves' penchant for dwelling... i have some pity for them.

however, i will defer further commentary on this until brethil gets a chance to lead her chapter, which i am looking forward to with much pleasure.

It's true, with the Summoning, the splits between the Elf kindreds, the disturbed developmental timeline, the chance for Morgoth to establish a realm in Arda - all of it tells against the Elves. Men at least awake in the light, with Morgoth temporarily hiding; and as we have said they don't HAVE anything to regret so they can move forward to their full potential, for the greatest Arda.

Honestly if this idea does anything it makes me want to be a better person and a better earth steward!


**Oh, and I am adding: Thank you for keeping the ideas lively original and poetic...and darned funny at times too.Angelic Aaand indeed we have a lot of this sort of thing coming up - and looking forward to Men (there's another suspect comment) in your chapter.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."

(This post was edited by Brethil on May 3 2013, 4:48pm)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 4:43pm

Post #53 of 99 (159 views)
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even services have changed a lot [In reply to] Can't Post

 
more services today have photo montages, poetry, people being encouraged to share happy memories...

flowers have changed as well. more colorful.

when one of my aunts died a few years ago, i didn't want to do the white lily thing. i wanted to be more... there's no right word for it... up-looking? so i bought a large bouquet of sunflowers.

they... definitely stood out... and i was hoping no one thought them inappropriate. i had a few people mention to me that they thought they were great.

when someone dies, there's no getting around the grief. but we can do the deceased honor and be a comfort to the bereaved if we work in appreciation, beauty, and reminders of the happinesses that person brought to us, while living.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 5:09pm

Post #54 of 99 (148 views)
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Victorians and rituals [In reply to] Can't Post

Was a lot of the Victorian memorial stuff a kind of enforced social display? The Victorians were, I think, great makers up of rituals. A lot of our Christmas customs or wedding customs date from then. I wonder whether it had anything to do with it being a prosperous age (for the rich, anyway), and with a large upcoming middle class to be out in their place with complex rules?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 5:20pm

Post #55 of 99 (149 views)
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some of it, but not all of it [In reply to] Can't Post

 
some of it... like the elaborate clothing rules, for color, for fabrics, during mourning. you not only had to have access to the rarefied knowledge of all this "proper form," you had to have the money to spend on new sets of outfits (and for upper-class edwardians, including those in america, who aped the brits), you could have five outfit changes in a day.

but other things, like photos, hair art ('tho you had to have leisure time for that) were more affordable to the lower classes.

one of the main functions of all these societal rules was to be able to find out easily who belonged, and who was an outsider. if you had to ask, you were an outsider. if you didn't do it quite right, you were an outsider (or suspect).

the queen was also a role model. for the sake of following her mourning habits as a leader of "fashionable society," and also just as a moral leader, as head of the nation and the anglican church.

but there was a lot of sincere output, perhaps because the lower classes hadn't traditionally had as much time or money to give to their (sincere) grieving (as the wealthy and upper-class did). i suspect that was also a factor.


cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 5:45pm

Post #56 of 99 (148 views)
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Quite right, of course people were sincerely grieving too [In reply to] Can't Post

I didnt mean to dismiss that, but my post did. My apologies. But that's the British Establisment for ya- Make Up Silly Rules to confound the newcomers

I'm trying to remember where I read a story including a Victorian woman who is +at last+ out of mourning and buys a yellow dress. Then a relative dies and there's a lively image of the yellow dress being drowned in black dye...

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


Brethil
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 5:52pm

Post #57 of 99 (141 views)
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Love sunflowers [In reply to] Can't Post

and as a tribute I think that's a lovely statement to make with them. I have Maximillian's which produce about 500 flower heads, and I leave them for the birds as a fall treat.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 6:35pm

Post #58 of 99 (143 views)
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ah, no, truly [In reply to] Can't Post

 
do not fret... your post did not come across at all insensitively. i think it is understood that people were grieving. we are just examining the layers they put on top of it.

speaking of layers... even though they may look artificial or excessive to our modern eyes, rituals during death, do provide structure, stability, and a certain kind of comfort. you may be at sixes and sevens with your emotions, but you can just be catatonic and walk through the steps. sometimes that's a good thing, and a distraction.

where it's not so good, i think, is when folks get judgemental about others' behavior.

i +love+ that image of the yellow dress being drowned in black dye. it's undoubtedly a scene that played out with many beautiful and colorful dresses of those who were too poor to afford separate mourning wear.

i am a long-time collector of vintage and and antique fashions, and a +lot+ of victorian clothes are in black. if you had black, it could stretch your wardrobe dollars.

cheers --

.


In Reply To
I didnt mean to dismiss that, but my post did. My apologies. But that's the British Establisment for ya- Make Up Silly Rules to confound the newcomers

I'm trying to remember where I read a story including a Victorian woman who is +at last+ out of mourning and buys a yellow dress. Then a relative dies and there's a lively image of the yellow dress being drowned in black dye...



aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 6:36pm

Post #59 of 99 (138 views)
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i learn something new... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
...which is a great thing for me....

maximillian sunflowers... thanks, brethil. : )

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 6:41pm

Post #60 of 99 (135 views)
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victorian mourning art [In reply to] Can't Post

 
here are some links to victorian (and older) mournibilia...

images for hair art... some incredibly lovely
some of this was collected over the person's lifetime, some at death. think of some of these pieces as remembrances for many who did not have many or even a single photograph of the deceased..

cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


telain
Rohan

May 3 2013, 6:51pm

Post #61 of 99 (131 views)
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thought you might find this interesting? [In reply to] Can't Post

I used to work for an archaeological firm (archaeology being one of my many -- too many, perhaps -- interests!) I remember distinctly a conversation with the head of the firm about how very unprepared our modern society is for death, especially compared to other, earlier, and even very ancient societies. The taboos associated with death seem to keep us from emotionally or intellectually dealing with it when it eventually happens to people we know and love. In any event, the conversation was eye-opening and it certainly (in my mind, anyway) underscored the usefulness of rituals in some contexts.

I really like your sunflowers. I think many people are starting to think of death quite differently and our rituals are moving toward a celebration of a life rather than a mourning for the death.


elaen32
Gondor

May 3 2013, 8:13pm

Post #62 of 99 (118 views)
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These are amazing [In reply to] Can't Post

and, I suppose, somewhat macabre to modern sensibilities. I understand the need for something tangible of the dead person, especially in the absence of photos.
I agree with your earlier post about memorials too- there are many more tree plantings, gardens etc. The National Arboretum in the UK as a memorial to fallen service personnel is one example of this- I have not managed to see this yet, but what I have seen on tv etc looks beautiful and the bereaved who have been interviewed say that they found it peaceful and appreciated more rather than some big stone memorial only. How rituals grow up is interesting and so varied in different cultures. I'm sure that Brethil, like me, has witnessed many of these in her career. Learning to respect (and remember) these different rituals is very important to the bereaved eg some cultures, like Islam, it is forbidden for a non Muslim to directly touch the deceased (gloves help!). In others, any delay in carrying out the ritual of laying to rest eg because an inquest or post mortem is necessary, can be even more distressing for the bereaved. In the area where I work, there is a large, settled Romany gypsy population. Their rituals are very Victorian- the funerals are vast- often the corteges require a police escort because they are so large and potentially disruptive. The mourning period is proscribed for different family members, with the widow wearing black for a year, after which she can wear a colour, but either the top of bottom half still is in black.
In the past, I think rituals, including the religious ones, helped people to cope with and rationalise their grief (although they could also stifle). Today, we are more secular and have fewer rituals and the bereaved often have great difficulty in understanding what they are feeling aand have a pressure to "move on". In the case of the Valar, I think they are in a similar position, they have not had enough experience to build up any rituals around loss and bereavement and therefore just do not know how to act.

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 8:18pm

Post #63 of 99 (125 views)
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where did looking backwards begin? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
did it begin about the time the valar brought the elves to aman?

were they so besotted with the growth and sub-creations (one of brethil's favorite words) of their charges that they forestalled creation of their own?

the valar cannot create life.... they do have a love of the music and of life itself... there is no jealousy towards eru or the elves for their ability to bring new life into the world... but i wonder... did having the elves -- who were busy reproducing, as well as maturing and building -- with them in aman provide surrogate creators for them? creators of something -- life -- that they (with the exception of melian -- who will be explored later) could not themselves create?

did this factor into their sadness and reluctance to have the noldor go? again -- other than the kinslayers -- why would the valar not say, "yes, you're free to go... let us help you return to the mainland, as we once helped you to come to valinor"? you don't have to be mandos to realize that going back to the mainland will bring a lot of heartache, because morgoth is on the loose... but the valar certainly could have sent istari, given more aid (hey! there are still those poor moriquendi hanging about!)... but they didn't.

and the creation of the melatonin islands... how +horrible+. the valar seem cruel and petulant with that one. you know, +other+ wizards manage to hide whole buildings and cities without causing any muggles people to be doomed to eternal sleep. just. saying.


cheers --

.



In Reply To
[curiousg] That expression has a negative expression for us real-life mortals, and even history-lovers aren't supposed to try to live in the past, but Elves and Valar have no compunction. Which do you suppose came first? Their world-weariness and decline in creativity and ambition, or their sadness for all the things they lost that dries up their initiative? If I think of the Valar, they create the Lamps, Melkor destroys them, and they bounce back with the Trees. They bounced back in an earlier era when they'd create mountains and he'd level them, etc. But they don't bounce back from this one. They take the second-best light, set it in the sky, and they're done, making nothing new, other than new defenses for Valinor, which again are an attempt at preservation, not a new creation for its own sake.

The Elves create things like Tirion, the Silmarils, and the ships at Alqualonde, but never bounce back when they lose them. Gondolin is a replica of Tirion, wonderful in itself but still a memorial. I suppose Nargothrond was something new. But post-Beleriand, we don't read about any architectural triumphs again. The Rings of Power were an exception--they were something new. But the greatest of them, the Three, only wanted to preserve the past.


Quote
Always there is that longing for no change, to harken to the past - part of the burden of being bound to the world maybe?

I won't fault the Eldar for looking backwards since that just seems to be who they are. But I'll still wonder why there was this great cultural shift among them and the Valar that they stopped making great new works and clung, with loosening grip, to what was fading away. [/curiousg]



aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 8:33pm

Post #64 of 99 (123 views)
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just to add... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
not all hair work (and it preceded the victorians, but they really went to town with it, and there are more surviving examples from that era) was composed for mourning purposes. many were just sentimental: parents/children, sweethearts.

in our modern culture, i have witnessed people just not knowing how to act around the bereaved. the standard today is "anything i can do, just let me know," which is a fine sentiment, but often not the most helpful. when my father died two years ago, i was +amazed+ at how impacted i was by the smallest gesture of kindness, but also how uncomfortable many people were around me because they thought they were missing some magic words or something that would, if not make everything better (which is what i'm sure they wanted), would at least provide a pathway upon which the emotional exchange could travel smoothly.

i have always tried to be a thoughtful person, but that opened my mind up a lot more. about a year later, when the wife of someone i knew passed away after a debilitating illness, because of my experience, i wanted to do what i could for him. i created a "30-day survival kit." there were 30 things (one for each day of the month) in it, each wrapped in plain brown paper, with a number. "1" for the first of the month, and so on.

these were small things, sometimes accompanied by a note i would write. a teabag of chamomile (with a note reminding to keep up strength and the immune system). one of those tiny novelty items that grow in water ("just because"), dvds i thought he'd like, on loan from my library, a poem of loss and grief and healing that i wrote about him and his wife, quotations other people made from the memorial service. a roll of parchment paper, so he wouldn't have to use up the roll he had in the house, which had been purchased by her.

people process grief in many ways. some of them conflicting. so there's nothing that's guaranteed to be a good fit from one person to the next. but you don't have to be an artist or a wordsmith. i think all you have to be is sincere, and to take action (like just calling in, rather than just the initial, "i heard, i'm so sorry").


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on May 3 2013, 8:42pm)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 8:38pm

Post #65 of 99 (119 views)
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definitely interesting : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
telain, definitely interesting -- thanks for sharing. : )

just to ask... older cultures had death taboos as well... why do you/did your associate think that modern taboos are problematic, but older/ancient taboos were not? i would think that modern science demystifies a lot of the taboos, and makes it easier to concentrate on the grief/grieving, rather than be distracted by "if i don't do this chant, the spirit will be tormented forever in the darkness."

thanks for liking my sunflowers. : )

i like the celebration of life route, which doesn't mean fewer tears, necessarily.

cheers --




In Reply To
[telain] I used to work for an archaeological firm (archaeology being one of my many -- too many, perhaps -- interests!) I remember distinctly a conversation with the head of the firm about how very unprepared our modern society is for death, especially compared to other, earlier, and even very ancient societies. The taboos associated with death seem to keep us from emotionally or intellectually dealing with it when it eventually happens to people we know and love. In any event, the conversation was eye-opening and it certainly (in my mind, anyway) underscored the usefulness of rituals in some contexts.

I really like your sunflowers. I think many people are starting to think of death quite differently and our rituals are moving toward a celebration of a life rather than a mourning for the death. [/telain]



aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


elaen32
Gondor

May 3 2013, 9:58pm

Post #66 of 99 (107 views)
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That sounds lovely, Maciliel [In reply to] Can't Post

You're obviously a good friend- I'm sure that all of this helps. I agree, the awkwardness is difficult- I cringe when I have bereaved patients in my clinic apologising for crying! It;s not because they are crying but that they think they have to apologise. I have to say that I tend to be a bit spontaneous emotionally and with patients I know reasonably well, I often give them a hug or hold their hand. One previous colleague told me that this was inappropriate and unprofessional, but I feel that our role is as healers, not just dolers out of pills, and human contact and touch has ben shown to be very therapeutic. Not one of my patients has reacted badly yet- although, as I say, usually I tend to respond in this way with those I have the longest relationship with eg those whose spouse etc have been through a long illness. Years ago I remember reading a passage in a book ( I forget which book it was now) which said something along the lines of there being no timetable for grief, grief not being a train that one caught from A to B. This is so true!

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


elaen32
Gondor

May 3 2013, 10:00pm

Post #67 of 99 (107 views)
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" I do not say do not weep, for not all tears are an evil" [In reply to] Can't Post

And how right Gandalf was!!

In Reply To

i like the celebration of life route, which doesn't mean fewer tears, necessarily.





In Reply To



"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


Brethil
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 10:04pm

Post #68 of 99 (105 views)
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The Noldor as a distraction [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
did it begin about the time the valar brought the elves to aman?
were they so besotted with the growth and sub-creations (one of brethil's favorite words) of their charges that they forestalled creation of their own?
the valar cannot create life.... they do have a love of the music and of life itself... there is no jealousy towards eru or the elves for their ability to bring new life into the world... but i wonder... did having the elves -- who were busy reproducing, as well as maturing and building -- with them in aman provide surrogate creators for them? creators of something -- life -- that they (with the exception of melian -- who will be explored later) could not themselves create?
Yes I think this is the case. I think the Summoning stifled the original purposes of both the Valar and the Firstborn, and the Firstborn became a sort of very interesting distracting substitution which took away their attention from the rest of the world. As sort of adopted parents I think they WERE fascinated with the Firstborn, and I can picture their amazement inspired by birth and new life. Once they got going they got the Sun and Moon in place, we see now exactly how much they COULD have been doing for Arda all along with their skills. (Haha, I do talk about sub-creation a lot...consequence of Letters...!)Tongue


Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 10:08pm

Post #69 of 99 (133 views)
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just work it into your daily routine... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
"honey, can you please sub-create dinner tonight?"

"hey -- don't forget to sub-create your homework ."

"no movie until you sub-create your chores."


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 3 2013, 11:55pm

Post #70 of 99 (101 views)
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ah, just saw this, brethil [In reply to] Can't Post

 
just saw this, brethil...


Quote
[brethil] **Oh, and I am adding: Thank you for keeping the ideas lively original and poetic...and darned funny at times too. Aaand indeed we have a lot of this sort of thing coming up - and looking forward to Men (there's another suspect comment) in your chapter. [/brethil]


thank you, kindly. : ) and, you're welcome. : )

btw... don't forget -- you still have to lead this chapter... "on brethil and the king under the mountain." all of your posts on that thread will be highly suspect. +can't wait.+


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


May 4 2013, 12:02am

Post #71 of 99 (121 views)
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Hahhahaaa!!! Bofur-laughing Mac... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


Quote
[brethil] **Oh, and I am adding: Thank you for keeping the ideas lively original and poetic...and darned funny at times too. Aaand indeed we have a lot of this sort of thing coming up - and looking forward to Men (there's another suspect comment) in your chapter. [/brethil]


thank you, kindly. : ) and, you're welcome. : )

btw... don't forget -- you still have to lead this chapter... "on brethil and the king under the mountain." all of your posts on that thread will be highly suspect. +can't wait.+




Think I might be sub-creating some serious editing work for the Modar with THAT particular chapter...! Highly Suspect indeed, but what fun! (Grinning with delight at the mere thought of it!) SmileSmileSmileSmile

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Brethil
Half-elven


May 4 2013, 4:15pm

Post #72 of 99 (86 views)
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More concerning Ulmo [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
regarding ulmo, who often seems to apply a principle of non-interference (which seems to work well)...
it is said that the music lingered longest in the sea... ulmo is the sea / has lordship over the sea...
perhaps ulmo is often the wisest of the valar because the music has lingered longest in what he has stewardship of, or because it actually flows within him.
lucky ulmo.




Meant to rely to this but got caught up in something else - I think you have a great point here, and I have thought so myself. Ulmo is quite literally steeped in the echoes of the Song; whether that keeps him truer to his purpose OR he selects that somewhat more lonely and isolated biome because of his personality and strong resolve is an interesting question. And of course in a very real physical and philosophical sense he unites Arda with the Blessed Realm, even when it is hidden, as the same Sea touches them both, so he is a bit of a living cornerstone for the world.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


May 4 2013, 4:28pm

Post #73 of 99 (78 views)
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now +that's+ an interesting point -- [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Quote
[brethil] And of course in a very real physical and philosophical sense he unites Arda with the Blessed Realm, even when it is hidden, as the same Sea touches them both, so he is a bit of a living cornerstone for the world. [/brethil]


i love thinking of ulmo in this way, simultaneously touching both the mainland and aman.

fwiw... manwe, as lord of the air, also functions in the same way, 'tho air isn't as tangible in the everyday sense as water.

the music flows through ulmo. he's our vala.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


CuriousG
Valinor


May 4 2013, 11:23pm

Post #74 of 99 (68 views)
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Funerary trends [In reply to] Can't Post


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I think many people are starting to think of death quite differently and our rituals are moving toward a celebration of a life rather than a mourning for the death.

Agreed. I remember in the 1960s and 70s, you felt required to cry at funerals and felt awful if you didn't, or at the very least you had to be exceedingly solemn. That's still fitting in some situations, but when my grandmother died at about age 90 a few years ago, none of us cried, we just talked about happy memories of her and all the nice things she'd done in life. I can't imagine that happening in the 1970s.


telain
Rohan

May 5 2013, 10:57am

Post #75 of 99 (60 views)
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sorry for the delay [In reply to] Can't Post

gorgeous weather and a just-waking-up-from-winter garden called my name. I was powerless to resist!

Anyway..

I actually deleted part of my earlier response before posting -- it didn't seem relevant at the time, but it does here. One of the points that my fellow archaeologist made about modern medicine is that they treat death as a disease that should be "cured", though of course it has no cure. (I am not overlooking all the good that modern medicine has done for general health or people with illness -- just this one point.) Unfortunately, that way of dealing with death gets transferred into wider society and people then no longer deal with death as a certainty and stop talking about it as a part of life. It's in that last part that the "problem" lies. While other, or ancient, cultures may have rituals about death, they at least have death as part of their lives (so to speak). ANd while I agree with you that the health professions have demystified many, many things, they also have created a bit of a problem in another (in a way.)

I hope that sort of explains a bit of my previous conversation. I can't say I absolutely believe one way or another, but it is something I think about from time to time.

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