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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
A few musings.....

elaen32
Gondor

May 2 2013, 9:29pm


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A few musings..... [In reply to] Can't Post


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This statement would seem to put to rest who is the greatest in many respects and it does conflict other statements in the Silmarillion, for example it would imply that he is most valiant where elsewhere this is attributed to Fingolfin. How do these sweeping comments about his greatness sit with each of you. Even if conflict with other statements about other elves are put to one side, how can he be said to have the mightiest "understanding" and retain such a lack of empathy for others. He seems without mercy. I must be very far from the thought of Manwe and therfore Eru as I do not weep for Feanor, he is arrogant beyond belief and in my eyes he can only be named greatest if he finally lets the Silmarils be unmade or otherwise used after Dagor Dagorath so the unsullied light of the Trees can illuminate an umarred Arda remade. I think that this very much depends on the definitions of "greatest" and "understanding" here. Feanor certainly seems to have been the greatest of the First Born in terms of his skill, knowledge etc and could have been the greatest that lived( in an all round fashion). I think that "understanding" in this instance really means intelligence and knowledge and how to use it. However, instead of improving his "spiritual understanding", this knowledge seems to great and terrible for Feanor, as a non-Ainur, to deal with, and thus he is marred to the point of being pretty sociopathic

Does anyone consider any significance can be given to the choice of the respective gender of the Maia selected for these tasks. Is Tolkien putting women on a pedestal and in a position of untouchable (by mortal men) reverence (such as he does with Galadriel) which some nowdays consider to be latent sexual discrimination. I agree that Tolkien does put women on a pedestal as you describe. However, I do not feel this is the case here- although I am not able to give any cogent reasoning for this! There are some cultures/mythologies whereby the moon is referred to as female and this has its association with reproductive cycles, fertility and fruitfulness of the Earth etc In times gone by, the moon determined the timing of crop sowing and reaping, which is still practiced today in some quarters. This is certainly an "Earthier" (excuse the pun) interpretation of the feminine than Tolkien's, but I feel that his choice of gender here is valid.

I have seen many comments on various boards saying this is an act of cowardice/neglect/selfishness/laziness/stupidty and just about every other negative description imaginable. I do not see this at all within the context of the mythology, what do you think. I do not understand why the Valar do not confront Melkor more. I know he is the most powerful of the Ainur, but he is only one and at this stage in the history, his power is being diluted. Why the other Valar keep turning their backs on the rest of Arda is unclear to me, I have to admit. OK, they are a bit miffed that not all the Elves went to Aman, but as discussed in previous threads, this was not always the fault of the Moriquendi. Men & dwarves are mortal, but that, to me, shows that they are more in need of help. Men are Children of Eru and the Valar are servants of Eru, so surely they should look after Eru's creations? I have to admit that I frequently get irritated by the behaviour of the Valar whilst reading the Sil!!

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"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"

Subject User Time
Chapter 11: Of the Sun and the Moon and the Hiding of Valinor ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort May 2 2013, 8:40am
    Who's the greatest? Hamfast Gamgee Send a private message to Hamfast Gamgee May 2 2013, 9:20am
    maciliel-thoughts Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 2 2013, 10:51am
        Galadriels vial ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort May 2 2013, 12:41pm
            yes, but Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 2 2013, 12:45pm
                Exactly ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort May 2 2013, 1:14pm
                    I accept the myth CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 3 2013, 12:42am
                        Second-best light Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 3 2013, 1:14am
        The Valar turning away Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 2 2013, 10:29pm
            Yes, they frustrate all of us CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 3 2013, 12:00am
                He does share some thoughts on Government that strike me as interesting... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 3 2013, 1:00am
                    Wow--very enlightening!! Many thanks CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 3 2013, 1:10am
                    the valar and government Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 10:56am
                        I agree with all of this Mac, especially about the gift of Light Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 3 2013, 11:15am
                            great point about the first battle of beleriand Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 11:26am
                                I think you are right about the stars... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 3 2013, 11:41am
                            The Sun coming sooner CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 3 2013, 1:40pm
                                The Sun may have changed it all Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 3 2013, 4:25pm
                            The Valar as abandoned children CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 3 2013, 1:55pm
            regarding ulmo... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 11:04am
                More concerning Ulmo Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 4 2013, 4:15pm
                    now +that's+ an interesting point -- Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 4 2013, 4:28pm
    thoughts over the lunch hour... telain Send a private message to telain May 2 2013, 4:15pm
    Great to be back Finwe Send a private message to Finwe May 2 2013, 7:25pm
        Glad to see you again, Finwe CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 3 2013, 12:04am
            Thanks Finwe Send a private message to Finwe May 3 2013, 1:30am
    Sun and Moon thoughts Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 2 2013, 8:08pm
        The Second Best Sun and parental grief CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 3 2013, 1:00am
            Thanks back CG - it was a great idea to look into! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 3 2013, 1:39am
        a brethil of fresh air Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 10:18am
            Thank you Mac! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 3 2013, 10:52am
                by the way -- thank you to all Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 12:12pm
                    And thank you too CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 3 2013, 12:51pm
                        thanks, cg : ) Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 1:27pm
    A few musings..... elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 May 2 2013, 9:29pm
        Musings on musings CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 3 2013, 12:26am
    More questions CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 2 2013, 11:44pm
        regarding compelling imagery Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 11:12am
            poetically said telain Send a private message to telain May 3 2013, 1:26pm
            Sun and the Moon and sadness CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 3 2013, 2:04pm
        Memorializing the Trees Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 3 2013, 11:32am
            at the very least Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 11:43am
                I was thinking of firewood. // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 3 2013, 12:52pm
                    what! Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 1:10pm
            "Dwelling on the past" CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 3 2013, 1:06pm
                dwelling in the past Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 1:20pm
                    "God rewards fools" but who rewards the gods? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme May 3 2013, 3:57pm
                    You echo my thoughts here Mac Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 3 2013, 4:43pm
                        ah, just saw this, brethil Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 11:55pm
                            Hahhahaaa!!! Bofur-laughing Mac... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 4 2013, 12:02am
                Maybe the loss of the Noldor was too much for them Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 3 2013, 4:10pm
                where did looking backwards begin? Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 8:18pm
                    The Noldor as a distraction Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 3 2013, 10:04pm
                        just work it into your daily routine... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 10:08pm
            honourable reminder of their naivete? telain Send a private message to telain May 3 2013, 1:37pm
                Agree on that CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 3 2013, 1:42pm
                Absolutely Telain Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 3 2013, 4:20pm
            the evolution of memorials Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 2:01pm
                Memorials - amazing insights here Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 3 2013, 4:32pm
                    even services have changed a lot Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 4:43pm
                        Victorians and rituals noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme May 3 2013, 5:09pm
                            some of it, but not all of it Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 5:20pm
                                Quite right, of course people were sincerely grieving too noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme May 3 2013, 5:45pm
                                    ah, no, truly Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 6:35pm
                            victorian mourning art Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 6:41pm
                                These are amazing elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 May 3 2013, 8:13pm
                                    just to add... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 8:33pm
                                        That sounds lovely, Maciliel elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 May 3 2013, 9:58pm
                        Love sunflowers Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 3 2013, 5:52pm
                            i learn something new... Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 6:36pm
                        thought you might find this interesting? telain Send a private message to telain May 3 2013, 6:51pm
                            definitely interesting : ) Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 3 2013, 8:38pm
                                " I do not say do not weep, for not all tears are an evil" elaen32 Send a private message to elaen32 May 3 2013, 10:00pm
                                sorry for the delay telain Send a private message to telain May 5 2013, 10:57am
                                    Reminds me of the movie "The Fountain" CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 5 2013, 11:03pm
                            Funerary trends CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 4 2013, 11:23pm
        Short answers sador Send a private message to sador May 5 2013, 4:52pm
            I like these points Sador Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 5 2013, 5:11pm
            Yes, that image of Fingolfin's march and arrival is sublime. // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 5 2013, 9:50pm
    Oops! sador Send a private message to sador May 5 2013, 4:41pm
        Trees, gender, and heavenly bodies CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 5 2013, 10:49pm
            equation Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 5 2013, 10:55pm
            Sun and Moon reflecting his ideas about human love Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 6 2013, 12:45am
                Ah CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 6 2013, 1:49am
                    if it is deliberate and relevant ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort May 6 2013, 2:19am
                An alternative hypothesis... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme May 6 2013, 8:25am
                    Hmmm... I would have to go with the 'deeper' theory here Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 6 2013, 1:12pm
                        Yes, he didn't put everything in his notes CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 7 2013, 12:53pm
                            Becuase he was booted out of Tirion, of course. // sador Send a private message to sador May 7 2013, 1:12pm
                                LOL! // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 7 2013, 1:16pm
                            feanor Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 7 2013, 1:47pm
                                Well, I'm glad we're talking about something besides kilts now. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 7 2013, 2:02pm
                            That special scrutiny. And about the boots... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil May 7 2013, 7:12pm
                                And certainly this quote from the Letters shows there's always something behind every word CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG May 8 2013, 1:46pm
            And another one! sador Send a private message to sador May 6 2013, 5:21am
        I can only say that you may think you know more about what I have seen in my time spent in various forums but I will have to disagree with you. ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort May 6 2013, 12:14am
            There is no need to get personal. sador Send a private message to sador May 6 2013, 2:29am
                Maybe I should have put a smiley face after that ElendilTheShort Send a private message to ElendilTheShort May 6 2013, 2:52am
                    I've recognised that quote sador Send a private message to sador May 6 2013, 5:56am

 
 
 

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