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need help filling in some blanks please (First Age, Elros, Elrond, Gil-galad, etc.)
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erynion
Lorien

May 2 2013, 8:54pm

Post #151 of 160 (224 views)
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I suppose there aren't really any rules - with active gods, you can just make it up as you go along, because they can do anything. [In reply to] Can't Post

That reminds me of something totally different - what's the deal with the Vanyar? Why do they spend more time with the Valar than with other Elves? It seems like they're a group all the other Elves would look up to.


CuriousG
Valinor


May 2 2013, 11:19pm

Post #152 of 160 (202 views)
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Now some book passages to back things up [In reply to] Can't Post

"Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman."

"After the end of the First Age the power and wealth of Khazad-dum was much increased; for it was enriched by many people and much lore and craft when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains were ruined at the breaking of Thangorodrim."

Doriath: "There fell Celegorm by Dior's hand, and there fell Curufin, and dark Caranthir; but Dior was slain also, and Nimloth his wife, ..."


Brethil
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 2:47am

Post #153 of 160 (188 views)
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Nice conspiracy idea Erynion...! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

What I also find interesting is that upon re-reading FotR it seemed to me rather like the mithril strain sat right on top of the Balrog... and that again made me fantasize that maybe, just maybe, there was a Balrog sitting in the pit Maedhros cast himself into, it found the Silmaril and took it with it, fleeing to a less Vanyar-infested comfy hot place, ie, pits beneath Moria. There, Dwarves would have found it, and treasured it, and lost it in history, until finally it resurfaced with Thrain I, who claimed he "found" it...bit of a Middle Earth conspiracy there.




granted its in Film, but that Arkenstone looks more than half like a Silmaril to me...! Wink

And perhaps if you want to discuss Dwarven history one of these days you will have to begin another one of these lovely inquiry threads! I think this one has earned you a cookie..






.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


malickfan
Gondor

May 4 2013, 10:28am

Post #154 of 160 (217 views)
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No worries I struggle to remember my own username half the time [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
'Macfalk, if you're reading this: why didn't Cirdan ever have a son?


Maybe he was too busy admiring his beard in the mirror.

Or on a more serious note:

'As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thoughts, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change. This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them…’

(Morgoth’s Ring, The Later Quenta Silmarillion II)

i.e he got a little grumpy in old age

Thanks for the offer Curious but I don't need a kilt, my boxers are plenty roomy enough thank you.

And believe it or not I actually made that essay on Cirdan EVEN LONGER! Posted on my old blog if anyone is interested (I wouldn't advise reading it in one sitting!):

http://paulashwellreviews.wordpress.com/...e-tolkien-fans-only/


Containing:
  • An short essay exploring his origins as a character and the meaning of his name
  • An chronological overview of the History and actions of Círdan the Shipwright in the first Three Ages, his personality and actions, and the reasons why I consider him such a great character and personal favourite.

And Discussions of the following closely related matters:
  • The date of his departure from Middle Earth
  • His Age at the time of the Fourth Age
  • His mysterious beard and aged appearance
  • Whether he was an ‘Elve of the Awakening’.
  • His portrayal in screen adaptations (Yes he is in LOTR!)

Is there anyway I could submit this essay to Greenbooks?

‘As they came to the gates Cirdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and we was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said ‘All is now ready.’

Perhaps the most fascinating Individual in Middle Earth



Brethil
Half-elven


May 4 2013, 2:10pm

Post #155 of 160 (167 views)
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Thank you for this Malickfan! [In reply to] Can't Post

Will be working outside for a while but looking forward to reading your ideas; I think I have read some of your posts about this before, but am looking forward to the EE! Wink

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Felagund
Lorien


May 11 2013, 4:19pm

Post #156 of 160 (105 views)
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the 'inland city' & Hyarmenor [In reply to] Can't Post

I've wondered the same as you, about whether there were Númenórean colonies in Hyarmenor / South-land / Dark Land and whether these survived the Change of the World. The only vaguely relevant reference I can dig up is from Daphne Castell's 1966 interview with Tolkien, in which he said:

Well, Berúthiel went back to live in the inland city, and went to the bad (or returned to it — she was a Black Númenórean in origin, I guess). She was one of these people who loathe cats, but cats will jump on them and follow them about — you know how sometimes they pursue people who hate them? I have a friend like that. I'm afraid she took to torturing them for amusement, but she kept some and used them: trained them to go on evil errands by night, to spy on her enemies or terrify them.

This material suggests that there was some kind of Black Númenórean settlement other than the coastal city of Umbar. It may have been located in the depths of Harad, or even further south and east, in Hyarmenor. The 'inland' bit is a bit odd though, as you'd think that the Númenóreans would have preferred the coast for their colonies - as with Umbar, Pelargir & Vinyalondë / Lond Daer.

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 11 2013, 5:34pm

Post #157 of 160 (121 views)
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The inland city - Osgiliath? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I've wondered the same as you, about whether there were Númenórean colonies in Hyarmenor / South-land / Dark Land and whether these survived the Change of the World. The only vaguely relevant reference I can dig up is from Daphne Castell's 1966 interview with Tolkien, in which he said:

Well, Berúthiel went back to live in the inland city, and went to the bad (or returned to it — she was a Black Númenórean in origin, I guess). She was one of these people who loathe cats, but cats will jump on them and follow them about — you know how sometimes they pursue people who hate them? I have a friend like that. I'm afraid she took to torturing them for amusement, but she kept some and used them: trained them to go on evil errands by night, to spy on her enemies or terrify them.

This material suggests that there was some kind of Black Númenórean settlement other than the coastal city of Umbar. It may have been located in the depths of Harad, or even further south and east, in Hyarmenor. The 'inland' bit is a bit odd though, as you'd think that the Númenóreans would have preferred the coast for their colonies - as with Umbar, Pelargir & Vinyalondë / Lond Daer.



Well, Berúthiel was the wife of King Falastur of Gondor, the first Ship-king. The inland city was most likely Osgiliath, capital city of Gondor at that time, or Minas Anor (Minas Tirith).

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Felagund
Lorien


May 12 2013, 11:36am

Post #158 of 160 (130 views)
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some thoughts on the Osgiliath theory [In reply to] Can't Post

We're merrily into the arcana now - I love the Reading Room!

I've come across the Osgiliath theory before, not least in the awesome essay by Lalaith on Umbar, which can be found here:

http://lalaith.vpsurf.de/Tolkien/Fr_Umbar.html

Plausible but I'm still slightly leaning towards the 'inland city' being somewhere in Harad or Hyarmenor. If Berúthiel went 'back' to the 'inland city', it implies she'd lived there before. It's certainly conceivable that she'd dwelt in Osgiliath previously - her wedding to Tarannon Falastur presumably took place there, as it was then the capital of Gondor. However, in the Castell interview Tolkien compares Berúthiel to Skadi - a giantess in Norse mythology - who, having got fed up living by the sea with her new husband, went back to live in Jotunheim - ie. the home of the giants. If the analogy is followed through, there's an implication that Berúthiel too went home, back among the Black Númenóreans.

I admit this is hardly conclusive nor indisputably canonical!

Welcome to the Mordorfone network, where we put the 'hai' back into Uruk


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 13 2013, 12:44am

Post #159 of 160 (82 views)
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An inland city in Umbar (or elsewhere) is a possibility... [In reply to] Can't Post

...We just don't have enough information to say for sure. Certainly not enough to come up with a specific name.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


wildespace
The Shire

Jun 9 2013, 9:36am

Post #160 of 160 (124 views)
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Interesting ideas about the sea advancing with the army, or even on purpose by Ulmo [In reply to] Can't Post

but I very sure that's not how it happened. I get a clear message from Tolkien that the flooding was catastrophic, and was the result of the struggles of the army with Morgoth. Think tectonic activity, with earthquakes and the movement of (Middle-)earth's crust, that caused the sea to rush in. I don't think it was anyone's goal to flood Beleriand (although it does resonate with Noah's Flood, i.e. purging the wickedness).

Recall that the land and water changed before that too, in the struggles of the Valar with Morgoth.

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