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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
dis the sis of thorin? and mothers in the hobbit trilogy...
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boldog
Rohan


May 2 2013, 10:36am

Post #1 of 30 (1235 views)
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dis the sis of thorin? and mothers in the hobbit trilogy... Can't Post

hey sorry for my past few posts being quite stupid.....
anyway this is a serious one. can we possibly see an appearence of dis the mother of fili and kili?
there is debate as to weather we see bolgs mother, (i wouldntt mind that) but really in terms of the story, it is much more better to show some more of the line of durin, and the mother of good main characters. perhaps she may have an extended role from the lore of tolkien, or even just a brief cameo. either way i would love to see a scene of her. (even bolgs mother will be good to see) Evil

"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"


DuBekar
Rivendell


May 2 2013, 10:57am

Post #2 of 30 (575 views)
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I don't like that idea... [In reply to] Can't Post

Even if i wouldn't hate anything if they showed Kili and Filis mother, i think it isn't necessary because it is nothing to the story it self, it would be to draged out imho.

And i don't think we will see Bolgs mother, nor any Orc females (at least i hope we won't)

"Good morning!" he said at last. "We don't want any adventures here, thank you! You might try over The Hill or across The Water." By this he meant that the conversation was at an end.
"What a lot of things you do use Good morning for!" said Gandalf. "Now you mean that you want to get rid of me, and that it won't be good till I move off.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien


Cirashala
Grey Havens


May 2 2013, 11:08am

Post #3 of 30 (565 views)
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Dis [In reply to] Can't Post

I quite agree! She is the only dwarf woman ever named by Tolkien, her sons die a gallant death, and I know that Dain succeeds Thorin, but if things had been different and a woman could become queen on her own, then she would have ended up Queen of Erebor after Thorin and Fili and Kili die at BO5A.

I would love to see her specifically, especially since there has been a few things of fan art, but no one really knows for sure what she looks like!

Unfortunately, I am not quite sure how we will see her given she is either most likely dead or in Ered Luin at the time of the events of the Hobbit (I just looked it up and her death date has a question mark).

Bring on the last of the direct line of Durin! Smile

Half Elven Daughter of Celethian of the Woodland Realm


Angharad73
Rohan


May 2 2013, 11:17am

Post #4 of 30 (544 views)
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She doesn't fit into the storyline... [In reply to] Can't Post

Really, she has not part in what is about to happen in the next two movies. Her only part in the story is the fact that she has given birth to Fili and Kili. And as such, if we are to catch a glimpse of her, the only way I could imagine it, would be sort of a reaction shot. You know, when the Dwarves back in Ered Luin hear of what happened at Erebor and of the deaths of Thorin and his nephews. And that would be quite heart-breaking. Unsure


imin
Valinor


May 2 2013, 11:27am

Post #5 of 30 (511 views)
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Adds very little/nothing to the story [In reply to] Can't Post

For me it would add pretty much nothing to the main story and just slow everything down and i would prefer a leaner film than AUJ.

Could be shot and used for some scene in the EE but i think it is unnecessary for the TE.

We will be seeing female dwarves i assume in flashback so if we happen to see Dis then, then i wouldn't mind so long as it was kept brief - personally the lack of female characters didn't diminish my enjoyment of the book at all and i just don't think it's that important - i would rather they got the main story line of the film right.

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Dis15
Bree

May 2 2013, 1:32pm

Post #6 of 30 (475 views)
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I would love to see Dis in a small cameo role! [In reply to] Can't Post

She is the only named Dwarf woman in the books, and the sister of Thorin and mother of Fili and Kili, after all. We know so little of Dwarf women and don't even know the names of the mothers of Balin, Dwalin, Dain, Gimli, etc. I love the idea of seeing her reaction when she learns of the loss of her brother and two sons, her only children. Females seem to suffer much in Middle Earth. I guess it is our lot in life!


(This post was edited by Dis15 on May 2 2013, 1:39pm)


Loresilme
Valinor


May 2 2013, 1:44pm

Post #7 of 30 (458 views)
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I think the most we'll get [In reply to] Can't Post

in the way of showing female dwarf relatives, is that scene (I believe intended for DOS when the dwarves are in Mirkwood) there were some pics of -- of someone (assumed to be Legolas) holding a small keepsake drawing of a dwarf woman, while a male dwarf (assumed to be Gloin) looks on.


(This post was edited by Loresilme on May 2 2013, 1:46pm)


Macfeast
Rohan


May 2 2013, 1:52pm

Post #8 of 30 (465 views)
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Either that... [In reply to] Can't Post

...or some sort of flashback showing Fíli and Kíli leaving home. I think that'd be a good way to show her, even give her dialogue, and still have it be relevant to the story and the characters; She could easily be used in a way that fleshes out Fíli and Kíli as characters, and highlights their youth and lack of experience.


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 2 2013, 2:04pm

Post #9 of 30 (455 views)
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No, thank you. [In reply to] Can't Post

Pointless and not part of story.


In Reply To
hey sorry for my past few posts being quite stupid.....
anyway this is a serious one. can we possibly see an appearence of dis the mother of fili and kili?
there is debate as to weather we see bolgs mother, (i wouldntt mind that) but really in terms of the story, it is much more better to show some more of the line of durin, and the mother of good main characters. perhaps she may have an extended role from the lore of tolkien, or even just a brief cameo. either way i would love to see a scene of her. (even bolgs mother will be good to see) Evil



Marionette
Rohan


May 2 2013, 2:41pm

Post #10 of 30 (469 views)
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Better Dis than Tauriel [In reply to] Can't Post

I would love to see more of the dwarves life in Ered Luin, that include Dis. I guess she was the last surviver of the line of Durin, of the three brothers. She had to deal with Thorin and her sons deaths Wasn´t she?

Why not, if they created that Tauriel to add female characters to The Hobbit, and to be the love interest for Kili, it would be better then to have dwarf-women (Dis)HeartHeartHeart


"Dear friend good bye, no tears in my eyes. So sad it ends, as it began"
Queen



RosieLass
Valinor


May 2 2013, 3:46pm

Post #11 of 30 (430 views)
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If they could work in a small flashback that included her, that would be cool. [In reply to] Can't Post

Maybe she doesn't add anything to the story that the story lacks.

Neither does Tauriel.

Or Radagast, for that matter.

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


TheSexyBeard
Lorien

May 2 2013, 8:41pm

Post #12 of 30 (382 views)
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Wouldn't mind is she had a cameo [In reply to] Can't Post

Or was at least referenced. Gloin has is locket of his wife and Gimli that we saw in the first trailer, he could take it out to show some of the dwarves and maybe Fili or Kili could have a similar locket containg a sketch of their ma,

Yes, my username is terrible.


Lio
Lorien


May 2 2013, 11:41pm

Post #13 of 30 (355 views)
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Dis "reaction shot" [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually, I think that might be a good way to incorporate her. Maybe they could show a series of epilogue-type shots and one of them could be of Dis. She doesn't even need to be named specifically, we'll all know it's her. Wink

But I agree it might be a bit too much to incorporate her into the story as a character with a specific role to play, there are so many characters and story arcs already! Same thing with Bolg's mother, although I'd love to see a cameo of her as well. Heart

Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin

Orcs are mammals!

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CaptainFaramir13
The Shire

May 3 2013, 1:20am

Post #14 of 30 (325 views)
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Interesting Idea! [In reply to] Can't Post

Perhaps they could incorporate her by having her somehow show up at Thorin's funeral. It could add to the emotion of the moment.


emre43
Lorien

May 3 2013, 7:21am

Post #15 of 30 (283 views)
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Yes please. [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't see any reason why not? I want to see as much of what was going on in Middle Earth as possible.


Kaede
Rivendell


May 3 2013, 11:11am

Post #16 of 30 (289 views)
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If she provides a plot point... [In reply to] Can't Post

Good points! What Tolkien shows us about Dwarf culture is so male-centric that if she's still alive, she probably wouldn't be considered, though. I could support a flashback that includes Dis if it added something relevant to the storyline. Highly speculative, but if Dis was in Erebor at the time if the attack, I'm thinking she had to be as familiar with their grandfather's gold sickness as Thorin was. (Think Eowyn/Eomer when Theoden is under the spell). It's possible that she could have warned her sons about it before they left, and it's possible she could make them promise to watch Thorin for signs and care for him (if we assume she loves her brother and "king.") If she made such an injunction, it would strengthen Fili and Kili's reasons for remaining at Thorin's side to the end. (Like Sam not leaving Frodo because Gandalf said not to leave him).

(This post was edited by Kaede on May 3 2013, 11:14am)


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


May 3 2013, 12:06pm

Post #17 of 30 (283 views)
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That's an interesting thought [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I could support a flashback that includes Dis if it added something relevant to the storyline. Highly speculative, but if Dis was in Erebor at the time if the attack, I'm thinking she had to be as familiar with their grandfather's gold sickness as Thorin was. (Think Eowyn/Eomer when Theoden is under the spell). It's possible that she could have warned her sons about it before they left, and it's possible she could make them promise to watch Thorin for signs and care for him (if we assume she loves her brother and "king.") If she made such an injunction, it would strengthen Fili and Kili's reasons for remaining at Thorin's side to the end. (Like Sam not leaving Frodo because Gandalf said not to leave him).



I never thought of her being aware of the dragon sickness too...

I think Dis is a fascinating, if mysterious, tragic figure. She has suffered all the same losses as Thorin--grandfather, father, brother (book). In addition, it seems likely that her husband is dead since he doesn't follow Thorin on the quest (although movie Thorin could also have lost a spouse--he is old enough to have been married at the time of the sack of Erebor). And then all her remaining family--her boys and her brother--go off on this mad quest... And a cousin, not one of her immediate family (or herself), becomes Erebor's monarch after all this...

But I don't think she will make it into the movies. They are just so packed as it is... And I'm not sure I mind, because I kind of like to keep her as I picture her in my imagination. Smile




"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment



Kaede
Rivendell


May 3 2013, 1:11pm

Post #18 of 30 (274 views)
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But agree it's not likely... [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes--there's plenty in the movies already and there's no compelling need to add anything about Dis (or anyone's mother) at all. RA has stated in interviews that Thorin knows Fili/Kili's father is dead...though this could just be part of his character work rather than canon. I do wonder how much Fili/Kili are prepared for/on the lookout for the gold sickness, though. The audience has heard about it from Bilbo in the prologue...but at the end of AUJ, I'm not certain that Bilbo, Fili, or Kili are aware. *If* their mother warned them about it, it would only take a line or two between the brothers to inform the viewers. From the guarded looks they've exchanged, I'm guessing only Balin and Gandalf know that the potential is there, but I don't think Balin included it in his Moria story. (Will have to re-watch now!) I think it's more likely that when the time comes, it will be Balin who reveals the extent of the problem. I bet it won't take long for Fili and Kili to realize the odds are they're both doomed to the same fate...they watch Thorin descend to madness, and if Fili becomes king, Kili watches it take his brother, and if Fili dies, Kili is left alone while it takes him, too. It's like knowing you have a terminal illness and it would be no wonder if they are in do-or-die mentality by the time the BoFA comes around. (Already planning to stuff my pockets with tissues when I go see the last film...)


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


May 3 2013, 4:57pm

Post #19 of 30 (258 views)
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Guarding against dragon sickness [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I do wonder how much Fili/Kili are prepared for/on the lookout for the gold sickness, though.


I think there is room in the canon for this to be possible. If Fili and Kili were aware of the problem, it could explain why they didn't share Thorin's "mood" with regard to the standoff over the gold:

So grim had Thorin become, that even if they had wished, the others would not have dared to find fault with him; but indeed most of them seemed to share his mind--except perhaps old fat Bombur and Fili and Kili. (The Gathering of the Clouds, TH)

Although, as you say, it may not have been possible for them to hold out long themselves...



Quote
I bet it won't take long for Fili and Kili to realize the odds are they're both doomed to the same fate...they watch Thorin descend to madness, and if Fili becomes king, Kili watches it take his brother, and if Fili dies, Kili is left alone while it takes him, too. It's like knowing you have a terminal illness and it would be no wonder if they are in do-or-die mentality by the time the BoFA comes around.


Now that is a chilling thought.

And I wonder if Dis herself could succumb to it? Unsure



In Reply To
(Already planning to stuff my pockets with tissues when I go see the last film...)


What, that's it? I'm planning on buying an extra ticket for my 24-pack of Puffs Plus Lotion. Wink (I can laugh now... Unimpressed)








"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment



Kaede
Rivendell


May 3 2013, 6:14pm

Post #20 of 30 (243 views)
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Marketing opp? [In reply to] Can't Post

LOL. Wondering if we'll see movie three themed tissue boxes....handed out free with the 3D glasses?


MaeBeth
Bree

May 3 2013, 6:33pm

Post #21 of 30 (234 views)
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Good point [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see why Elves get more screentime than most other races. Heck, the only dwarf anyone really remembers from LOTR is Gimli!
The first dwarf anyone remembers, mmaybe.
I think they wanna reel in more fanboys with a lovely, strong female that doesn't have a beard. (just kidding!) I was always curious about Thorins' sis, how she dealt with losing not only her brother, but both her sons. Those are her kids for cryin' out loud. *sigh*
Maybe it's something best left to the imagination of the people who think of these things, yeah? Well, let's imagine that she at least led peaceful days herself, in time...Evil


Riven Delve
Grey Havens


May 4 2013, 12:56am

Post #22 of 30 (207 views)
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Too late... [In reply to] Can't Post

I believe some far-sighted others here have already called dibs on the tissue-selling venture. Wink Although I'd lay down good money for a box (or boxes) of Kleenex with the heirs of Durin on it! Heart


"I left the night, with its remote and singing stars, and came in, to the glow of the fire, and the chair where he had been sitting, and the unstrung harp." --The Last Enchantment



Dis15
Bree

May 4 2013, 3:21pm

Post #23 of 30 (172 views)
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There are so many good ideas here as to how [In reply to] Can't Post

to incorporate Dis without adding too much time or affecting the story line. Actually, it would be interesting to see Bolg's mother as well. I have never seen a female orc. Were they kept in dark caverns whose only function was to bear more orcs? Did they get to choose their mates? Was there any nurturing toward their children, or were they even able to know their children?

It would be interesting, in my own opinion, to try and give us glimpses of different kinds of females in Middle Earth. The Elfish women are beautiful and the Hobbit women are very cute. These are the easy ones. The Dwarf women and orcish females would be more challenging, but very interesting.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 4 2013, 6:02pm

Post #24 of 30 (176 views)
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Dwarf-women and female Orcs [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
to incorporate Dis without adding too much time or affecting the story line. Actually, it would be interesting to see Bolg's mother as well. I have never seen a female orc. Were they kept in dark caverns whose only function was to bear more orcs? Did they get to choose their mates? Was there any nurturing toward their children, or were they even able to know their children?

It would be interesting, in my own opinion, to try and give us glimpses of different kinds of females in Middle Earth. The Elfish women are beautiful and the Hobbit women are very cute. These are the easy ones. The Dwarf women and orcish females would be more challenging, but very interesting.



There has been much discussion (and images) of Dwarf-women here. Jackson seems to have abandoned the notion that lady-dwarves always dress and appear like males in publlic.

Unfortunately, Tolkien wrote very little about orkish mating habits and daily life. I think most now agree that there would have been Orc-women and young, but Tolkien barely hints at what an Orc's home life would be like. I expect a lot of brutality and little nurturning. Orc leaders might have had more than one mate at a time.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Dis15
Bree

May 4 2013, 6:46pm

Post #25 of 30 (167 views)
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Took a look at those pics. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think those screencaps are so neat! I had been trying to wrack my brain to remember if I had read anything about orc families or females in the books. I didn't think there had been. I agree, I think it would have been brutal, Sauron would not have allowed warmth or nurturing into those relationships if he could have helped it. It would still be interesting though to see an orc female on screen, and a Dwarf women. The first time I caught the Dwarf woman fleeing Erebor, I was not sure if I had seen correctly, it happened so fast. I think it would be neat to see a little more of them and get a feel for a personality or an emotion.

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