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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Discussion of old news concerning Gandalf and Radagast (possible spoilers)
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Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


May 1 2013, 6:25pm

Post #1 of 27 (1126 views)
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Discussion of old news concerning Gandalf and Radagast (possible spoilers) Can't Post

In an interview in Empire magazine before the release of AUJ (Dec 2012 edition), Ian McKellen revealed that he will be rescued by Radagast at some point (I'm presuming it will take place in Dol Guldur during film two).

Since I haven't seen a discussion on this before I'm curious to hear any words of insight/speculation/comments about this. What do you think this will entail and how do you feel about the idea?

"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."


Eleniel
Grey Havens


May 1 2013, 6:44pm

Post #2 of 27 (577 views)
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I know I've mentioned that quote in the past... [In reply to] Can't Post

...in reference to all the hue and cry over the Galadriel/Gandalf doll mention. Looking at what we know now, it could be possible that Radagast rescues Gandalf from the Nazgul tombs rather than DG, since we know the two of them end up in the High Fells together...


"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


DanielLB
Immortal


May 1 2013, 7:14pm

Post #3 of 27 (575 views)
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I couldn't remember the quote, so had to pull out Empire. [In reply to] Can't Post

Here it is:


Quote
He remains tight-lipped on the subject of Dol Guldur (translation: "the hill of sorcery"), the fetid fastness that Gandalf dares to probe on his lonesome. This might be because he doesn't actually know yet what foul beasts he'll run into: "You probably know more than I do. We don't get to see the creatures until the premiere." But he does reveal that at one point he will be rescued by Radagast The Brown, the only man in Middle-earth to own a sleigh pulled by six oversized bunnies.


He was already "rescued" by Radagast in AUJ, by distracting the Orcs for a short while. Though, because this particular sentence appears within the Dol Guldur conversation, I'm inclined to believe that Radagast will save Gandalf at Dol Guldur (unless the EE of AUJ adds anything else).

I've always predicted that someone has to die/be injured at Dol Guldur for the threat to believable, and that Gandalf will arrive late at the BO5A (missing out on all the Arkenstone shenanigans as in the book). Having Gandalf injured at Dol Guldur (possibly saved by Radagast and Galadriel) fits with I think. Perhaps Radagast looses his life to save Gandalf's? Evil


Ardamírë
Valinor


May 1 2013, 7:49pm

Post #4 of 27 (541 views)
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So we have Gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post

being saved by Radagast and dragged around like a limp noodle by Galadriel. This subplot really has me nervous. Unimpressed

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


May 1 2013, 8:42pm

Post #5 of 27 (502 views)
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If Gandalf is late to the Battle of Five Armies [In reply to] Can't Post

Then supposedly his role in TABA will be fairly minimal. I'm not sure I'd be happy about that, although it may be a way of emphasis: in the grand scheme of TABA the film will not be about Gandalf, though his plot line might extend into the early part of film three. The concentration of the audience needs to be, on the whole, away from the Wizard and focused on Thorin and Bilbo. They take priority in this film, as (I suspect) do Fili, Kili and some of the other Dwarves.

Of course, I'm hoping that Radagast will remain alive but it's not the end of the world if he dies, although I really can't see them killing off the only being in existence who can claim to use Rhosgobel Rabbits as his form of transportation. Laugh Killing him would be evil.

"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


May 2 2013, 12:57am

Post #6 of 27 (387 views)
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You and me both, bro. [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf is Gandalf. He's more likely to save Radagast. And he doesn't need to be carried. I remember what a friends of mine once said about Gandalf: You don't mess with Gandalf.


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


May 2 2013, 2:13am

Post #7 of 27 (399 views)
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Has this "Galadriel carrying Gandalf" business really been confirmed? [In reply to] Can't Post

 


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 2 2013, 2:40am

Post #8 of 27 (385 views)
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I don't think so. I think, Gandalf will do battle against overwhelming odds ALONE in Dol Guldur [In reply to] Can't Post

and escape with aid from Radagast, but that the Galadriel incident will take place (hopefully not in too eggregious a manner) during the assault on Dol Guldur.

In Reply To
...in reference to all the hue and cry over the Galadriel/Gandalf doll mention. Looking at what we know now, it could be possible that Radagast rescues Gandalf from the Nazgul tombs rather than DG, since we know the two of them end up in the High Fells together...


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 2 2013, 2:53am

Post #9 of 27 (378 views)
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I would HATE that. I really hope to see Gandalf's interaction with Thranduil for at least two reasons. [In reply to] Can't Post

The first, to show some of the decency of Thranduil (If you are hanging out with Gandalf there has to be some good to you), and also to see an Elf Monarch who would (hopefully) be shown with a more obvious respect/reverence for the Istari.

In Reply To
Then supposedly his role in TABA will be fairly minimal. I'm not sure I'd be happy about that, although it may be a way of emphasis: in the grand scheme of TABA the film will not be about Gandalf, though his plot line might extend into the early part of film three. The concentration of the audience needs to be, on the whole, away from the Wizard and focused on Thorin and Bilbo. They take priority in this film, as (I suspect) do Fili, Kili and some of the other Dwarves.

Of course, I'm hoping that Radagast will remain alive but it's not the end of the world if he dies, although I really can't see them killing off the only being in existence who can claim to use Rhosgobel Rabbits as his form of transportation. Laugh Killing him would be evil.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 2 2013, 3:03am

Post #10 of 27 (360 views)
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I find the latter much more worrying, because I think it will be much more literal. I think the "saving" [In reply to] Can't Post

by Radagast will merely be Radagast showing up, after Gandalf has already been shown kicking tons of asses with magic and melee (HOPEFULLY), and providing Gandalf a little last minute reconassaince and a Rabbit powered lift just before all the power of Dol Guldur is unleashed, Necromancer et al, in overwhelming odds.

The "lifted up like a ragdoll" is FAR more worrisome. I think it will be okay if ALL involved are seen to be injured, but if it is a matter of Galadriel floating in as though she were one of The Valar Queens Themselves, and leveling Dol Guldur when everyone else has been overcome, and catching up poor outclassed Gandalf. . . . that would be a problem of massive proportions.

In Reply To
being saved by Radagast and dragged around like a limp noodle by Galadriel. This subplot really has me nervous. Unimpressed


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Salmacis81
Grey Havens


May 2 2013, 3:09am

Post #11 of 27 (347 views)
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Gandalf and Radagast [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be much more acceptable for Radagast to save Gandalf than it would be for Galadriel to save him. At least Radagast is of the same order.


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 2 2013, 4:03am

Post #12 of 27 (337 views)
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We shouldn't see Gandalf with Thranduil until the siege of Erebor [In reply to] Can't Post

It would be consistant with Tolkien's portrayal of the Elvenking in The Hobbit if Thranduil refuses to have anything to do with the White Council and we don't see him aligned with Gandalf until Bilbo finds them with Bard at the siege of Lonely Mountain. The Mirkwood Elves are insular almost to the point of being xenophobic (although they do maintain trade relations with the Men of Lake-town and lands South). If anything, the discovery of Dwarves within their borders might make Thranduil a bit paranoid, causing him to reject any potential envoys from the Council.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 2 2013, 4:20am

Post #13 of 27 (328 views)
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He doesn't deal with the council as a whole, but he certainly is friends with Gandalf. [In reply to] Can't Post

That much is apparent in all their covnversations. Still, I did not intend to imply that they should be scene together before the siege, merely that I do hope to seem them together in the Camp and at some point after the battle and the dust of it have settled. Especially IN the camp, one would think with Gandalf stressing the need for unity among all people, and Thranduil respectfully but resolutely declining to follow his wishes. "Gandalf, your wisdom holds great weight with me, but I cannot ignore the needs of my people, nor of our friends, the people of lake town, whose home was destroyed by the dragon for the part they played in aiding these dwarves. etc"

In Reply To
It would be consistant with Tolkien's portrayal of the Elvenking in The Hobbit if Thranduil refuses to have anything to do with the White Council and we don't see him aligned with Gandalf until Bilbo finds them with Bard at the siege of Lonely Mountain. The Mirkwood Elves are insular almost to the point of being xenophobic (although they do maintain trade relations with the Men of Lake-town and lands South). If anything, the discovery of Dwarves within their borders might make Thranduil a bit paranoid, causing him to reject any potential envoys from the Council.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


imin
Valinor


May 2 2013, 11:31am

Post #14 of 27 (271 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

Have some scenes with Gandalf and Thranduil but the main story is of bilbo and the dwarves ultimately. There will already be lots of scenes that are elsewhere in the films i reckon so more bilbo please!

And Iluvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: 'Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwe, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Elessar
Valinor


May 2 2013, 12:54pm

Post #15 of 27 (253 views)
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A fine line [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree there is going to be a fine line in how Galadriel saves Gandalf. There are ways for it to be done that show both for the awesome characters they are and then there is the way of diminishing returns on both. I admit I am curious to see which side of the fence they fall on with this one.



Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 2 2013, 1:48pm

Post #16 of 27 (245 views)
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Tolkien records no such conversation in 'The Hobbit' [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
He doesn't deal with the council as a whole, but he certainly is friends with Gandalf. That much is apparent in all their covnversations. Still, I did not intend to imply that they should be scene together before the siege, merely that I do hope to seem them together in the Camp and at some point after the battle and the dust of it have settled. Especially IN the camp, one would think with Gandalf stressing the need for unity among all people, and Thranduil respectfully but resolutely declining to follow his wishes. "Gandalf, your wisdom holds great weight with me, but I cannot ignore the needs of my people, nor of our friends, the people of lake town, whose home was destroyed by the dragon for the part they played in aiding these dwarves. etc"



Bilbo doesn't even discover Gandalf in the camp until after he leaves Bard and the Elvenking. Gandalf and King Thranduil are certainly friendly after the events of TA 2941, but before the BoFA there is no indication that they know one another at all except by reputation. Peter Jackson could alter that, of course.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


Ziggy Stardust
Gondor


May 2 2013, 5:55pm

Post #17 of 27 (215 views)
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Now that you mention it [In reply to] Can't Post

It does make more sense for Radagast, simply because they are of the same order. Other than that, Gandalf is Gandalf.


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 6:37am

Post #18 of 27 (176 views)
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I didn't say there is such a conversation detailed HOWEVER, Gandalf IS in the camp, AND [In reply to] Can't Post

he is with them when they negotiate up to Thorin AND, Bilbo and Gandalf ride back for some way with Thranduil, and Thranduil says to him in parting,

"Farewell, O' Gandalf! May you ever appear where you are most needed and least expected. The oftener you appear in my halls the better shall I be pleased."

As Gandalf did not come to his halls on that occassion, it must be assumed that he has been to the Elf King's halls in the past. Indeed, it would be almost impossible to believe that Gandalf, who was closest in companionship to The Elves, had spent 2,000 years wandering Middle-Earth but never been a guest in the halls of the king of what was probably the largest true kingdom of Elves remaining.

In Reply To

In Reply To
He doesn't deal with the council as a whole, but he certainly is friends with Gandalf. That much is apparent in all their covnversations. Still, I did not intend to imply that they should be scene together before the siege, merely that I do hope to seem them together in the Camp and at some point after the battle and the dust of it have settled. Especially IN the camp, one would think with Gandalf stressing the need for unity among all people, and Thranduil respectfully but resolutely declining to follow his wishes. "Gandalf, your wisdom holds great weight with me, but I cannot ignore the needs of my people, nor of our friends, the people of lake town, whose home was destroyed by the dragon for the part they played in aiding these dwarves. etc"



Bilbo doesn't even discover Gandalf in the camp until after he leaves Bard and the Elvenking. Gandalf and King Thranduil are certainly friendly after the events of TA 2941, but before the BoFA there is no indication that they know one another at all except by reputation. Peter Jackson could alter that, of course.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 12:54pm

Post #19 of 27 (164 views)
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You may assume, however it is NOT inferred. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
he is with them when they negotiate up to Thorin AND, Bilbo and Gandalf ride back for some way with Thranduil, and Thranduil says to him in parting,

"Farewell, O' Gandalf! May you ever appear where you are most needed and least expected. The oftener you appear in my halls the better shall I be pleased."

As Gandalf did not come to his halls on that occassion, it must be assumed that he has been to the Elf King's halls in the past. Indeed, it would be almost impossible to believe that Gandalf, who was closest in companionship to The Elves, had spent 2,000 years wandering Middle-Earth but never been a guest in the halls of the king of what was probably the largest true kingdom of Elves remaining.

You do raise an interesting point about the likelyhood of Gandalf having to at least attempted to visit the Elvenking before. However, such a visit cannot be assumed strictly by Thranduil's parting words to Mithrandir. It is not clear, from what is said, that he has been in the Halls of the Wood-elves before. You are reading too much into what King Thranduil says. The Elvenking has not proven to be among the wisest of leaders in the past; in fact, he seems to have been a bit paranoid. He may very well have turned Gandalf away on any previous occasions that the Grey Pilgrim attempted to visit him. We don't know for certain either way.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


MaeBeth
Bree

May 3 2013, 6:47pm

Post #20 of 27 (143 views)
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Huh [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess I don't knowUnimpressed
I mean, PJ can pretty much let his imagination run wild, can't he? The book only says that Gandalf has to leave Thorin & Co. to go deal with the Necromancer...
I'm mostly a little excited to see how it'll be done. I hope Radagast will be ok though. He's only mentioned in passing in the book, & Only had (was it a few?) paragraphs in FOTR.
He's a great character, even though Saruman treats him as just 'Gandalfs' trippy cousin'.Laugh


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 3 2013, 7:21pm

Post #21 of 27 (141 views)
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It is inferred. This is why, [In reply to] Can't Post

aside from the glowing praise Thranduil bestows, which suggests a very high opinion of The Wizard, he speaks of the oftner Gandalf appears in his halls, though Gandalf does not visit in this instance, and Thranduil says nothing to imply that Gandalf should pay a first visit to his hall someday etc. It is not impossible that he is saying "now that I know and like you, you should visit my halls often and that would please me," but it is VERY unlikely, and this would be an odd way of saying it. Much more plausible from what is said is the scenario that Gandalf has been a visitor to his halls, that this has always pleased Thranduil, and the more often Gandalf visits the happier The Greenwood King will be.

It is highly unlikely that Gandalf had never visited. It is far more unlikely that Thranduil had turned him away. Were it so, one would expect there to be some mention of it, or some acknowledgement of the fact on the part of the narrator, Gandalf or Thranduil himself. "I regret that I have not allowed you into my kingdom sooner. . . " I won't go too far into the speculation of why Thranduil might or might not want to host Gandalf, but I think it VERY unlikely that he had never done so, and just as unlikely that Gandalf would not have come there, considering his thousand year interest in the deepening developments in The Greenwood. He would have brought tidings and warnings to Thranduil. I think the notion that Gandalf and Thranduil were not on friendly terms prior to the Battle before Erebor would be a shock to everyone. . . including Thranduil. Wink

In Reply To

In Reply To
he is with them when they negotiate up to Thorin AND, Bilbo and Gandalf ride back for some way with Thranduil, and Thranduil says to him in parting,

"Farewell, O' Gandalf! May you ever appear where you are most needed and least expected. The oftener you appear in my halls the better shall I be pleased."

As Gandalf did not come to his halls on that occassion, it must be assumed that he has been to the Elf King's halls in the past. Indeed, it would be almost impossible to believe that Gandalf, who was closest in companionship to The Elves, had spent 2,000 years wandering Middle-Earth but never been a guest in the halls of the king of what was probably the largest true kingdom of Elves remaining.

You do raise an interesting point about the likelyhood of Gandalf having to at least attempted to visit the Elvenking before. However, such a visit cannot be assumed strictly by Thranduil's parting words to Mithrandir. It is not clear, from what is said, that he has been in the Halls of the Wood-elves before. You are reading too much into what King Thranduil says. The Elvenking has not proven to be among the wisest of leaders in the past; in fact, he seems to have been a bit paranoid. He may very well have turned Gandalf away on any previous occasions that the Grey Pilgrim attempted to visit him. We don't know for certain either way.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


May 4 2013, 6:16am

Post #22 of 27 (124 views)
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We shall have to agree to disagree [In reply to] Can't Post

However, you are still using the word infer improperly.

The reason why I believe that the Elvenking is paranoid about allowing outsiders into his realm is because of the fate of Thingol (his relation) and his own realm, which was destroyed by Dwarves. Then there was the death of Thranduil's father Oropher at the Battle of Dagorlad. After that, he seemed to feel that the outside world was good for trade, but little else.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


elaen32
Gondor

May 4 2013, 7:30am

Post #23 of 27 (139 views)
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Another consideration.... [In reply to] Can't Post

In LOTR, book and movie, Legolas seems to know Gandalf pretty well. He can only really have known him from Gandalf visiting the Woodland Realm. Ok, some of these visits could have been after the events of The Hobbit, but I doubt that Gandalf was able to spend much time there during this period. I therefore think it v likely he had visited Thranduil before this

"Beneath the roof of sleeping leaves the dreams of trees unfold"


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 4 2013, 12:26pm

Post #24 of 27 (119 views)
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Forgive me. I meant of course that it is implied, and from the implication it can be inferred. [In reply to] Can't Post

And the implication is fairly strong. The Elven King may well be paranoid, especially concerning Dwarves, especially regarding Thingol though this movie more than implies (and even the book does) that he'd had some dealings with them and with outsiders since, certainly in the long years since the ruin of Doriath. And Thranduil's realm was never guarded by a Girdle like that of Melian The Maia.

He also had dealings frequently enough with The Men of Long Lake. Also, it is one thing to be paranoid about dwarves, but Gandalf at least was a known entity, beloved amongst The Elves. That they were willing to take Gollum into their keeping at his askance suggests a great deal of respect and fondness for him, and more than he likely built up by great deeds and aid in the singular Battle of Five Armies, significant as that aid was.

His words to Gandalf in the Hobbit are not really what one would expect him to use regarding a new acquaintaince. To compare his relation to Thorin and company to his relationship to one of The Five Wiazards, the one most revered and loved amongst The Elves no less, is a grave mistake. Legolas was deeply grieved by the fall of Gandalf, and that is fat more than would be expected by an Elf towards a figure whom they had only met once or twice in passing.

Greenwood is where the Shadow of Sauron returning first fell. It is where Gandalf's eye would have been drawn to very early after his arrival from Valinor. Really, I am surprised at even the suggestion that, at the late date in the Third Age Timeline which the events of this tale belong to, Gandalf The Gray, who had been close in friendship with The Elves in this incarnation for over two Thousand years by this point, would not have at least been acquainted with Thranduil. And I am certain he would have, even if unenlightned, been curious about this Wanderer who looked like an old man, but who diminished not with the passing of time, and worked wonders, and who was so reverently received and respected by the likes of Cirdan, Galadriel, Elrond and Glorfindel. Even with his potential resentments of Galadriel, he would want to know this intriguing person and would also not want to be shown up as a host by his kin. Gandalf went everywhere in The North and West, and I do not think Thranduil would have lightly shut his doors in his face. As Bilbo considered when measuring the polite pace of closing his own door, "Wizards, after all, are Wizards."

In Reply To
However, you are still using the word infer improperly.

The reason why I believe that the Elvenking is paranoid about allowing outsiders into his realm is because of the fate of Thingol (his relation) and his own realm, which was destroyed by Dwarves. Then there was the death of Thranduil's father Oropher at the Battle of Dagorlad. After that, he seemed to feel that the outside world was good for trade, but little else.


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


May 4 2013, 12:27pm

Post #25 of 27 (119 views)
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Agreed. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In LOTR, book and movie, Legolas seems to know Gandalf pretty well. He can only really have known him from Gandalf visiting the Woodland Realm. Ok, some of these visits could have been after the events of The Hobbit, but I doubt that Gandalf was able to spend much time there during this period. I therefore think it v likely he had visited Thranduil before this


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."

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