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need help filling in some blanks please (First Age, Elros, Elrond, Gil-galad, etc.)
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CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 1:37pm

Post #51 of 160 (245 views)
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Macfalk, if you're reading this: why didn't Cirdan ever have a son? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 1:54pm

Post #52 of 160 (259 views)
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There were Men at Sirion [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm reading Unfinished Tales now, and a note says that the story about the Children of Hurin was written by a man at the Sirion refuge, who shared it with the Eldar. As you point out, where else could Men go? So it makes sense that the El-boys would mingle with Men there.


Elthir
Gondor

Apr 30 2013, 2:01pm

Post #53 of 160 (242 views)
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the sinking of Beleriand [In reply to] Can't Post

Christopher Tolkien generally noted: 'What little was ever told of the Drowning of Beleriand is very difficult to interpret; the idea shifted and changed, but my father never at any stage clearly expounded it.'

That's really the best answer, unfortunately. I took a look at the external sources and came up with the same...

... answer? Smile


The problem with the fostering of Elrond and Elros and the Drowning of Beleriand is that Tolkien never really updated the end of Quenta Silmarillion -- he made some cursory corrections, yes, but Christopher Tolkien warns that these should not mean that JRRT himself was accepting the end chapters as otherwise updated, and Shirly there were not in my opinion.


What you really have is some ideas from the mid to late 1930s, which possibly still incorporate the Isle of Britain as being a land mass that survives the War of Wrath! And we also have the confusing possibility that the true 'full' destruction of Beleriand did not take place until Numenor fell.

We do know that the Isle of Britain -- as a surviving Isle -- did not likely survive as a concept into the 1950s, but below is the last version of QS [for this chapter] that Tolkien ever wrote. CJRT said he was surprised that for Quenta Silmarillion (QS) his father followed the earlier Qenta Noldorinwa (Q) so closely in features where the 'intrusion' of Númenor had already introduced new conceptions. I note an interesting passage in QS describing that after the Great Battle 'Men... fled far away, and it was long ere they came back over Eredlindon to the places where Beleriand had been'

What then was the meaning of this in the earlier Qenta Noldorinwa? Christopher says that he does not certainly know what this refers to, but speculates that it's conceivable that it refers to 'the bloody invasions of England in later days described in Ælfwine II; for there is very little in that text that cannot be readily accommodated to the present passage in S and Q, with the picture of the fading Elves of Lúthien leaving our Western shores. But a serious difficulty with this idea lies in the coming of Men 'over the mountains' to where Beleriand once had been.' Christopher Tolkien, The Quenta, HME IV

Well that's interesting! And in The Fall of Númenor II, Elendil the Númenorean, a king of Beleriand '... took counsel with the Elves that remained in Middle-earth (and these abode then mostly in Beleriand); and he made a league with Gil-galad the Elf-king. And their armies were joined, and passed the mountains and came into inner lands far from the Sea.'

Also in the extant QS, Tolkien wrote '... of the great building of ships upon the shores of the Western Sea, and especially upon the great isles which, in the disruption of the northern world, were fashioned of ancient Beleriand.' Turning again to Qenta Noldorinwa CJRT writes: 'The relation between these passages* strongly suggests that the 'Western Isles' were the British Isles, and that England still had a place in the actual mythological geography, as is explicitly so in S.' Of course Tolkien could use the same or similar passage from an older version and 'give' it new meaning (even if not clearly discerned), but I think the external history of the text here is very interesting.

It is also said in this version that not all the Elves were willing to forsake the 'Hither Lands' and some lingered in the West and North, and 'especially in the western isles and in the land of Leithien.'

Leithien is England... or was anyway! And again, this was the last version Tolkien ever wrote for Quenta Silmarillion. What we have in the 1977 Silmarillion has been edited of course, but it's from material that was rather problematic with respect to dating and being 'finished' in any notable sense.


So somewhat large questions remain. Add in the Isle of 'Himling' [Himring] and Tol Fuin, another [rather large] Isle that remained... again at least at one point in the external conception, according to an old map [for myself I'm not certainly sure these concepts necessarily survived themselves]... plus Tol Morwen, and the matter becomes even more confusing.

That's why, in a sense, CJRT's statement above is actually a good answer Smile


(This post was edited by Elthir on Apr 30 2013, 2:04pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 3:32pm

Post #54 of 160 (218 views)
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The ideas in this discussion are amazing. Thanks so much for beginning this thread!... [In reply to] Can't Post

...even though we haven't touched on some of the other details yet, the complex theorizing concerning Elrond and Elros is fantastic. I would guess at one point JRRT was looking at more of a 'taken' scenario for them, as he seems to describe them as VERY young in the babes-in-the-woods passage.

As far as their choices of elf-kind and human-kind the background with Meahdros and Maeglor gives us an amazing amount of insight. Indeed I can agree with Elros perhaps feeling closer and more bound to humans because of the experiences he had with the brothers; Elrond being, not sure here, more 'lore-ish' choosing elf-kind? Although there is no textual info that I ever remember your image of Earandil appearing in Vingilot is deeply compelling; especially if at that time he gave the message of the Valar to them about choosing the destinies of their lines which is a bit of knowledge that has no other route (that I can remember) of being told to them .

As Mac points out some aspects of distant and unavailable parents seems to be a recurring theme in JRRT's works if one peers closely enough. I have read that part of his adoration of the countryside in which he spent his younger years was in large part due to the fact that he associated it with his mother. I think his understanding of the impacts of the early loss of a parent translates into a significant force that acts upon his characters. It certainly causes them to make decisions that would not have happened otherwise. And the sterling worth of fostering too, we see so often. that these somewhat outlaw Elves are added into a noble collection - Cirdan, Elrond himself; in this odd instance Maehdros, for whom I have quite a compassion for (not to chapter-jump but we will discuss him more in Return of the Noldor) especially after the death of Feanor. Indeed the act of fostering the two boys gives both these Feanorian sons a bit of redemption outside of the curse of the Oath (which of course will get them in the end.) This brings up a fantastic point we discussed in NoWiz's Live from Rivendell chapter, about Elrond using wisdom in NOT compelling the Fellowship with an oath - he has indeed learned from his own history the damage Oaths can do.

I wonder though if there was any bitterness when the brothers left their foster-fathers. From a removed sense I can see that there would be, just based on the actions of the House of Feanor against their parents. On a personal level it must have made them quite conflicted, having affection for them from such a young age...

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


erynion
Lorien

Apr 30 2013, 3:36pm

Post #55 of 160 (191 views)
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just a short reply for now as I'm on my phone.. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know of any textual evidence saying the host of the Valar (plus Beleriand leftovers) crossed the Blue Mountains but I assumed they'd go a little further into Eriador than just the area of the Grey Havens, to make sure nothing evil waited there. (Should've checked Moria...)

As for Eärendil I'm not sure he could fight a dragon without ever hovering above the ground. There was probably much epic flying involved but he would have to communicate with troops on the ground and Ancalagon himself to even coordinate a duel.

"Elwing, would you mind flying down and telling the dragon to come up here so I can kill him?"


(This post was edited by erynion on Apr 30 2013, 3:39pm)


Otaku-sempai
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 4:03pm

Post #56 of 160 (190 views)
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The War of Wrath vs. the Change of the World [In reply to] Can't Post

Although both events had major impacts on Arda as a whole, I've always been a bit amused that the Change of the World affected Middle-earth proper (including the lands of Harad) far less than the earlier event did.

The War of Wrath resulted in the drowning of Beleriand and the draining of the Inland Sea of Helcar.

The Change of the World turned Arda into a globe (allegedly) when the Undying Lands were separated from the World and resulted in the sinking of Númenor and whole new lands arising from the seas, formed from Ekkaia and the Empty Lands. Yet, the more familiar, inhabited lands of Middle-earth are virtually untouched. Even the Dark Land, immediately to the East and South of Middle-earth, seems little changed from the First Age to the Third--making me wonder if any Númenorean colonies there survived the Change.

'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring


PhantomS
Rohan


Apr 30 2013, 4:14pm

Post #57 of 160 (225 views)
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there is the question of being Men [In reply to] Can't Post

when Beor died the Elves were very shocked that Men lived very short lives in relation to them. The deeds of human heroes such as Hurin, Huor, Tuor ,Turin and of course Beren are probably legends even to Elves, and apart from Tuor they all died.

Elros might have thought the Gift of Men would be a good thing when Elrond desired it not; Elrond's heroes are perhaps the kindred of Glorfindel, the Elvenkings and Cirdan, who might have been killed but would live centuries otherwise and tend to the world. Earendil himself was a Man at heart and he must have passed it on to his son Elros.

The messengers who meet Tar-Ciryatan and Tar-Antanamir later on state that the Elves should envy Men for having the Gift of true death. Maybe Elros saw that as a chance to really leave the world?


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 5:00pm

Post #58 of 160 (223 views)
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Been sewing furiously overnight... [In reply to] Can't Post

Got kilts for all!! Cool

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


erynion
Lorien

Apr 30 2013, 5:19pm

Post #59 of 160 (213 views)
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On the location of Maedhros and Maglor [In reply to] Can't Post

Something else I've been wondering about - someone I discussed this with elsewhere suggested to me that Maedhros and Maglor may have taken Elrond and Elros with them to Himring. But that is so extremely far north from the Havens of Sirion. Surely they wouldn't even know to attack those living at Sirion, if they weren't driven out of Himring themselves? They'd need to scout the location, find a gap in security, and even know most Elves were living there in the first place.
That leaves the question of where they would actually be living, if not Himring. I can't think of anywhere, except perhaps actually a very desolate Doriath? After all it wasn't the orcs that drove the Elves from there, it was the Sons of Feanor, so they could take up residence there - albeit with a guilty conscience. Or if Amras was still alive, they could have stayed with him in East Beleriand, as that seems to be comparatively safe? In any case, wherever they lived, Elros and Elrond grew up there. And I really don't think it could have been Himring, that's far too close to Angband considering how strong Melkor had got at that point.


(This post was edited by erynion on Apr 30 2013, 5:27pm)


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 5:26pm

Post #60 of 160 (180 views)
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Amon Ereb [In reply to] Can't Post

I think The Sil says that the Sons of Feanor wound up on Amon Ereb (or nearby Ramdal?) in southern Beleriand after the Nirnaeth. Morgoth's forces weren't as active there, so the brothers would have a mostly unimpeded path for attacking the Sirion haven.


erynion
Lorien

Apr 30 2013, 5:28pm

Post #61 of 160 (169 views)
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that fits with the edit I just made to my post! perfect. :3 [In reply to] Can't Post

 


erynion
Lorien

Apr 30 2013, 5:32pm

Post #62 of 160 (207 views)
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I think Elros just took to Men as soon as he met them. [In reply to] Can't Post

I like the idea of Aragorn having "mates" to go camping, hunting, getting drunk and stoned with, in the Dúnedain, and I think Elros became the same. And Elrond would have seen this as a bad influence and might have even resented Men for making his brother grow apart from him. And actually, I often toy with the idea that after Elros made his choice, Gil-galad had more to do with him (from king of Elves to king of Men, as it were) than Elrond did, because it was too emotional to have to watch him die one day.


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Apr 30 2013, 5:37pm

Post #63 of 160 (185 views)
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Wot- no more "out of kilt-er" posts with the new dress code? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimë I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 5:42pm

Post #64 of 160 (205 views)
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Like father, like son [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice to see you again, Phantom, and thanks for joining in!

I like your idea of Elros being like Earendil, and Elrond like Elwing, because there's a lot of that in Tolkien where children take after profound personality traits of their parents. Just one among many instances is that Nerdanel imparted her character to some of Feanor's sons (like Maglor and possibly the twins), but not all of them. It's apparent in The Hobbit also, because really, if a modern-day person (like me) is part Swedish and part French, does that mean there's a Viking inside of me competing with a wine-lover? No. But that's what you have with Bilbo's Took vs. Baggins personalities from his parents' lineages. Having the El-boys split and each follow a parental path would be consistent with other families in the the books.

Addressing the larger debate, I'm a bit torn in views of the motivation, if any, for the brothers to choose their racial fates, and if it wasn't just plot-driven. Tolkien takes twins and makes one the king of Numenor, the other a very prominent leader of the Eldar in the 2nd and 3rd Ages. To me it seems he wanted to show that racial split and the concrete ability to choose one's spiritual destiny, and also provide Men with some high-quality DNA from Luthien and others so that the royal house of the Dunedain would have a great pedigree. It also sets up the later grievance and conflict in Numenor when the Kings can say Elros didn't choose for them and they want to make their own choice. Who else but Elros could have started the Ball of Fate rolling?

When Arwen first meets Aragorn and learns who he is, she tells him "we are kin from afar." I think that's important in showing that the two are reuniting the long-sundered lineages of the El-brothers. That's why I see Elros' choice as having little to do with his character and mostly about setting up the plot for this Great Scheme of where the bloodlines go and the conflicts and reunions that are to come.


ltnjmy
Rivendell


Apr 30 2013, 5:42pm

Post #65 of 160 (205 views)
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Not being scary, but everyone who posts here is highly erudite [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I'm thinking we should get a couple pet Balrogs, or maybe swear a few rash oaths about newcomers.

Or we could make it really scary and sing Tra-la-la-lally once in a while.

*I loved the above comments. made me smile*
**
Also when I quote, I don't know how to get out of the reply box - so that is why I bold my comments, to differentiate them from the others. Everyone here is so nice and makes such detailed, erudite and highly thoughtful and engaging comments - that lurkers like myself still get intimidated.Smile




Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 5:50pm

Post #66 of 160 (156 views)
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Haha, thanks so much! [In reply to] Can't Post

I think most would be less nervous or intimidated if they saw all these pants (now officially kilts) subthreads. Tongue

I think the problem you're having with the reply box is that you're not clicking the "end reply" button. It looks like this --> /reply (only it will have the brackets around it). Try it and see if that fixes it Smile

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 5:52pm

Post #67 of 160 (206 views)
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Do you not like my kilts!? [In reply to] Can't Post

I slaved away all through the night. I expected more appreciation from you NWM! ShockedEvil

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 30 2013, 5:53pm

Post #68 of 160 (197 views)
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An old public speaking trick.... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is to visualize your audience as being in their underwear.

Of course, given that most people here are at home on their computers, they probably really are.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 6:01pm

Post #69 of 160 (178 views)
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Hint on exiting the reply box [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Itnjmy,

Here's what I do. Everytime I reply to a post, I always hit the enter key a few times in the text box to give me blank lines, then cursor up to be in the middle of them. It makes formatting so much easier, and then you just delete the extra lines when you're finished.


In Reply To
*I loved the above comments. made me smile*
**
Also when I quote, I don't know how to get out of the reply box - so that is why I bold my comments, to differentiate them from the others. Everyone here is so nice and makes such detailed, erudite and highly thoughtful and engaging comments - that lurkers like myself still get intimidated.Smile

So I can copy and paste your remarks above, then reply like this below. Though you don't have to, and if you bold or *** your comments somehow in the reply box, we'll know they're yours.

Speaking for myself, I avoid conversations where I don't know what people are talking about or don't have an opinion, which is why I lurk on the movie boards since I liked the movies but don't feel too strongly about their details. But if you ever see us discussing something that you have a personal viewpoint or question on, please jump in. There's nothing to fear except some rabid ponies, a few stray balrogs, and a hungry gollum or two, but they're easily chased away by Bombadil singing.


Darkstone
Immortal


Apr 30 2013, 6:04pm

Post #70 of 160 (190 views)
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Speaking for myself.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Speaking for myself, I avoid conversations where I don't know what people are talking about or don't have an opinion,..

That's never stopped me.Cool

And really, the Reading Room has a great reputation for tolerance which I hope it never loses. (For example, it is considered extremely bad manners to correct spelling or grammar here.)

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



(This post was edited by Darkstone on Apr 30 2013, 6:10pm)


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 6:04pm

Post #71 of 160 (183 views)
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Kilts [In reply to] Can't Post

It's very thoughtful of you to make us all kilts, but if I don't wear mine, can I use it for other things, like maybe a Christmas tree skirt or a throw rug or a table cloth? I'd just hate for it to go to waste.


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 6:05pm

Post #72 of 160 (169 views)
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My Pinocchio nose was growing on that one. Never stops me either. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 6:11pm

Post #73 of 160 (188 views)
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Nope [In reply to] Can't Post

You must wear it each and every day. Also, it's hand-wash only...isn't it just the best gift ever? (Or more like a part-time job Wink)

Hope you love it. I sheared my own sheep and everything.

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen

(This post was edited by Ardamírë on Apr 30 2013, 6:11pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 30 2013, 6:54pm

Post #74 of 160 (179 views)
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I adore your handiwork Ardamire!!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

And black watch plaid - my favorite!!! Stunning!!! SmileHeart **Applauding** over here!!!

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Ardamírë
Valinor


Apr 30 2013, 7:03pm

Post #75 of 160 (168 views)
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I knew you'd love the pattern [In reply to] Can't Post

I dyed all my sheep before shearing them. I knew the black watch plaid sheep was just the one for you!

"...not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive." -Arwen

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