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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
to be fair, i +did+ posit some answers

Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 29 2013, 11:51am


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to be fair, i +did+ posit some answers [In reply to] Can't Post

 
i was most certainly thinking of marriage vows when i was composing my response, but opted not to include references to them in my post (but shall do here!).

i don't think marriage vows are in the same category ('tho many vehemently disagree). i would look askance at any marriage vows that would call damnation and eternal darkness upon me if i broke them, or similar.

i was reading a bit of morgoth's ring over the weekend, and the segment on elvish customs around marriage may speak to this issue, perhaps.

tolkien was writing of marriage among the elves. he notes that the bond of marriage resides in the hroa, partly because marriage is part of the path that leads to children. however, 'tho the bond is mainly of the hroa, it would not exist without the will of the fea, so in that respect, the fea is also involved.

if we can use that as a model for how oaths would work on elves, the fea makes the oath, and the hroa compels the fea to keep the oath.

from that same section in morgoth's ring it is written in regards to elves and rebodying: 1) the fea must wish it (no elf is forced to rebody); 2) the fea must want/agree to take up its old life, which was interrupted -- eru's plan is that elves live in arda, enriching it; death of the hroa interrupts this; redress of this wrong is possible by rebodying; but no rebodying is granted to fear which do not wish to take up their old lives; 3) mandos must agree to the rebodying.

i don't agree that the sons of feanor will not be allowed to rebody. who can tell? if they were, they would be housed in new hroar (identical to the old). if the oath acted on the hroa, as in marriage, it seems logical that they would need to take the oath again (as is the case re marriage with an elf rebodied). it also seems that their fear might pull them to that action, but i think (in this scenario) it is possible that their time in mandos would have given their fear a chance to reconsider and make better decisions once rehoused (this was the whole purpose of fear residing in mandos).

interesting possibilities.


more later. a girl has patrol duty.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 29 2013, 11:55am)

Subject User Time
Rivendell 0 secs ago **Silmarillion Discussion 2013, Part 3 of Chapter 9: Of The Flight of the Noldor noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 19 2013, 9:52am
    "Rivendell 0 secs ago ?" noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 19 2013, 10:48am
        LOL! dernwyn Send a private message to dernwyn Apr 19 2013, 5:02pm
            Coming to you Live from the House of Elrond! // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 19 2013, 5:10pm
                Yes, Keep it! I Love the **LIVE** Rivendell broadcasts!!!! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 19 2013, 5:20pm
            But, Dernwyn, I think you should at least give noWiz points for effort. Promote him to Valinor! :) // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 19 2013, 11:46pm
                I can't send him to Valinor... dernwyn Send a private message to dernwyn Apr 20 2013, 12:45am
                    Cookies. Yum. This is a website cookie policy I can relate to!// noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 20 2013, 6:50am
        I wondered if you were trying to link to the movie "Zero Dark Thirty" // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 19 2013, 10:51pm
    Feanor Vs The Valar, and Flying Elves (not the circus act....) Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 19 2013, 5:15pm
        Feanor's fallacious demagoguery noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 19 2013, 5:54pm
            So true, and timeless vs allergorical Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 19 2013, 7:58pm
                timeless behaviors which translated and could be reverse-engineered into mythos noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 19 2013, 8:17pm
        Look out, honey, the kids have grown up CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 20 2013, 2:54am
            Nice take on the Oath! And about those craftsmen types... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 20 2013, 4:02am
            A King Henry VIII moment? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 20 2013, 7:26am
                Hijacking the public mood CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 20 2013, 5:21pm
                Nice historical reference NoWiz Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 20 2013, 10:31pm
    Drumroll please Finwe Send a private message to Finwe Apr 19 2013, 5:52pm
        Great analysis Finwe! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 19 2013, 5:58pm
            I agree- entirely convincing that Manwe sees Feanor as one bad apple, and is completely behind on Elven politics. // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 19 2013, 7:35pm
            some objections to the criticism against the Valar and Manw elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Apr 22 2013, 6:56pm
                You make some eloquent points here Elostirion; some thoughts in return Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 23 2013, 1:25am
                    In the end, it all happens too fast...to manage "hasty" we need Treebeard, not Feanor... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 23 2013, 9:24am
                    some answers elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Apr 23 2013, 11:37pm
                        So true Elostirion - a fascinating study in the brothers Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 23 2013, 11:58pm
        drum roll well deserved (followed by cymbal crash!) telain Send a private message to telain Apr 19 2013, 11:26pm
        Great job with Manwe CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 20 2013, 3:21am
            Haha. Manwe does make me rub my temples some times... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 20 2013, 10:23pm
    Great finale, noWiz. CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 20 2013, 2:33am
        Feanor, monkey paw, Macbeth noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 21 2013, 10:24am
    What if's for this chapter CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 21 2013, 6:50pm
        What if Feanor and sons set out as knights errant on a quest to revenge Finwe, not dragging their whole people along? // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 21 2013, 7:27pm
            Feanor and sons as knights... Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 21 2013, 8:05pm
                Oathless knights... Much nicer noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 21 2013, 8:11pm
                    Nicer but dead much sooner, if it was just 8 of them vs. Morgoth. // CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 21 2013, 9:42pm
        **rubbing hands** meaty questions.....! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 21 2013, 8:02pm
            Yes, Feanor seems doomed no matter what the what if is CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 21 2013, 9:56pm
    I originally suggested an "any other business" thread - do we need it? noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 21 2013, 8:02pm
        The Oath in full CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 21 2013, 10:56pm
            Feanor's Oath Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 22 2013, 12:13am
                Aha CuriousG Send a private message to CuriousG Apr 22 2013, 12:25am
                As I've posted below sador Send a private message to sador Apr 24 2013, 7:17am
                    Thnak you for clarifying Sador! Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 24 2013, 2:19pm
            Woah! That's proper swearing - do we know why it was cut? // noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 22 2013, 1:49pm
                Voronwe raised this question on the last time we've discussed this chapter. sador Send a private message to sador Apr 22 2013, 3:58pm
                    What I keep meaning to do.... noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 22 2013, 4:11pm
    Manwe's leadership elostirion74 Send a private message to elostirion74 Apr 22 2013, 6:04am
    Chapter 10 is up Finwe Send a private message to Finwe Apr 22 2013, 2:20pm
    Answers - part 1 sador Send a private message to sador Apr 23 2013, 2:20pm
    Answers - part 2 sador Send a private message to sador Apr 24 2013, 8:00am
    maciliel-thoughts Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 28 2013, 4:00pm
        Not answers - but more questions! sador Send a private message to sador Apr 29 2013, 9:09am
            to be fair, i +did+ posit some answers Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 29 2013, 11:51am
                Involving the gods in dark deeds noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme Apr 29 2013, 2:30pm
                    a girl is still patrolling Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel Apr 29 2013, 4:23pm
                    if a man wishes Maciliel Send a private message to Maciliel May 1 2013, 11:29am
                        It is good to know these things noWizardme Send a private message to noWizardme May 2 2013, 3:30pm
                Oaths - on endless repeat? Brethil Send a private message to Brethil Apr 30 2013, 8:56pm

 
 
 

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