Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Another Balin thread-this time it's negative
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


Apr 27 2013, 9:17pm

Post #1 of 36 (1851 views)
Shortcut
Another Balin thread-this time it's negative Can't Post

A while ago I made a thread praising this character and Mr Stott's performance, which, to my mind, was one of the best highlights of the movie. However, this time I am raising a point made by a family member concerning Balin's 'lack of usefulness'. This is *not* my own opinion, I just wanted to see how everybody feels about this point.

The point made by said family member was this: the choice to make Balin very old is fine, as this is in accordance with the book (though he was *not* older than Thorin, as he clearly is in the film). Where the problem lies is that Balin is supposed to be the very dwarf who later sets out to reclaim Moria and who becomes Lord of Moria (albeit for a short time). The Balin in the films however does not appear eager to reclaim Erebor from Smaug and so why should he feel obliged to take Moria, when it is controlled by many Orcs/Goblins and a much more powerful guardian?

However, that is not the biggest problem. The biggest problem (remember, not my words), is that Balin is not one of the most useful members of the company *in the film version*. Sure, he is wise (though that is rather trumped when Gandalf is with you), and he provides a signature as witness to the contract, but he does very little else of consequence. In the book he is "always their lookout", but they missed both of their main opportunities so far to use his lookout skills: he does not see the light from the troll's campfire, and he is not on guard when Bilbo appears in front of them. Lack of wasted opportunity? Maybe. Hopefully the EE and/or the next film may change some of this.

One word in his defence though-he is mean with that sword-mace of his.Laugh

"True courage is about knowing not when to take a life, but when to spare one."

(This post was edited by Radagast-Aiwendil on Apr 27 2013, 9:19pm)


sycorax82
Rohan

Apr 27 2013, 9:22pm

Post #2 of 36 (1059 views)
Shortcut
His character arc will obviously take him to a point where he will be determined to reclaim Moria [In reply to] Can't Post

Notice how he is the one who tells the tale of Azanulbizar. Moria is already on his mind and I'm sure he will mention it again.


Macfeast
Rohan


Apr 27 2013, 9:48pm

Post #3 of 36 (992 views)
Shortcut
Was about to say. [In reply to] Can't Post

My guess is that this is the direction his character arc will take; He starts out as wary and uncertain, and ends up optimistic (enough so that he would go to Moria). It would also serve as a pretty good indicator of how big a victory Erebor is to the dwarves, that the dwarf who harbored the biggest doubts, ends up going to Moria after the quest.

One thing to note; When Elrond reveals the secret of the map, and Thorin notes that "this is ill news. Durin's Day is soon upon is", Balin counters with "there's still time", instead of suggesting that it's hopeless, or something like that. While he harbors doubt, he is capable of recognizing an opportunity when it presents itself to them.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2013, 10:15pm

Post #4 of 36 (994 views)
Shortcut
i will not let the honor of balin be besmirched!!! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
(draws sword, raises it on high... )

balin is one of the only people who can function as a break on thorin's sometimes obdurate thinking. he makes thorin pause and consider, even if he winds up going full steam with his original plans (the whole expedition to reclaim erebor).

thorin also had him lead the company through the mountains, as he knew the passes well.

he also functions as a father figure to the company. yes, thorin is the leader, but balin is the approachable one, if there's a problem.

balin is destined to go to moria. it is written. his very reluctance now will be a stark contrast later when he decides to proceed with the (even more foolish than erebor) quest to retake moria. it will be a decision undoubtedly made in part from his sorrow at losing three family members (two of them quite young), who are the king and the heirs of his house. it will be dramatic, and it will be poignant.

balin also serves as a bridge for bilbo. he offers the hobbit support and kind words, which have power, coming from an elder statesman who is also quite close to thorin (who gives bilbo such a hard time).

also... did your family member see balin's fancy swordwork in goblintown? he was truly an artist, and quite effective.


balin, i salute you!

(sheathes sword.)


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 27 2013, 10:18pm)


dormouse
Half-elven


Apr 27 2013, 10:20pm

Post #5 of 36 (921 views)
Shortcut
Well.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Balin is marked out very clearly as the most important member of Thorin's company after Thorin himself. And 'important' isn't always the same as 'useful' - after all, the more visibly 'useful' jobs - guard duty, cooking, minding the ponies and so on - are the ones that would normally go to the junior members of a group. The second in command of a battalion doesn't normally wash the dishes or stand on guard. Balin has shown himself to be the one Thorin confides in and the one who appears to know Thorin best, and I'm sure that will count for more as we go deeper into the story.

Someone was making comments like this a few days ago about film Balin being unlikely to want to reclaim Moria at his age. I wondered then and wonder now if people aren't focussing too much on the long white beard and forgetting that he's a dwarf, not a man. Tolkien's dwarves have a longevity and endurance we humans can't even imagine. Balin is tough and can fight. In the conversation at Bag End Balin he is speaking out of concern for Thorin, I think, rather than commenting on the undertaking itself. He will lead a company to Moria for sure - almost certainly beyond the time-frame of the films, but as his attampt to reclaim Moria has already a part in the previous films I reckon it's likely that before the end of The Hobbit they'll have developed that part of his story and at least hinted at his reasons for going.


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Apr 27 2013, 10:22pm

Post #6 of 36 (929 views)
Shortcut
But we've seen only the first movie... [In reply to] Can't Post

and Balin won't set out to reclaim Moria until some 10 years after the last movie ends. He's not there yet. He still has his almost-king to love and support, and he's incredibly loyal to Thorin. Balin understands that trying to reclaim Erebor is Thorin's destiny, and Balin will support him to the end in that quest. That's where Balin's headed right now. But once he loses Thorin, his direction will likely shift dramatically; after having seen just AUJ, we can only imagine how heartbroken he'll be at the end of the Bo5A. I don't think Balin heads out to Moria out of misguided ambition, but out of trying to escape the heartbreak and loss that he feels in Erebor, without the one who he so wanted to call king (and without the two young princelings, whom I also suspect Balin cares a lot about). I suspect Balin will have a hard time accepting Dain as king, and that may be a large part of his motivation for leaving, too. And finally, Balin is, after all, next in line to the throne of Erebor after Dain. He's of royal blood too.

So I don't think Balin's ultimate departure from Erebor is at all at odds with what we've seen of Balin so far. His character arc is far from complete, and I expect he, of all the Dwarves, will be the one whose grief we most identify with by the end of TABA.

Not useful? I'd have to disagree with that, too. He's the brains of the Company, and Thorin's most trusted advisor and confidante. I'd call that pretty useful! Tolkien's use of Balin as the lookout always seemed inconsistent to me with his identifying Fili and Kili as having the sharpest eyes (after Bilbo), so I'm not bothered at all with Balin not being much of a lookout in the movie. I'd take brains and a trusted confidante any day.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2013, 10:49pm

Post #7 of 36 (959 views)
Shortcut
Oh besmirched.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Fancy words for fancy folks?

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2013, 11:31pm

Post #8 of 36 (880 views)
Shortcut
? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
lusitano, hiya : )

not sure what you're commenting on? are you saying i am/my word is fancy/too fancy? balin is fancy/too fancy?

not quite understanding.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 27 2013, 11:56pm

Post #9 of 36 (867 views)
Shortcut
Wouldn't think to call you "fancy" Mac... [In reply to] Can't Post

Eloquent...enlightened...erudite...maybe all of those. (And you can call me alliterative...just don't call me back to Valinor.) Wink

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


AinurOlorin
Half-elven


Apr 28 2013, 12:00am

Post #10 of 36 (921 views)
Shortcut
You know I love Balin's portrayl by Ken in the film. As to the reluctance, I have commented on that before. [In reply to] Can't Post

Two options seem probable to me, and they are not mutually exclusive. The one is that the amazingly fortuitous victory over Smaug will and the real possiblity of reclaiming the full wealth, power and history of The Dwarves will bolster Balin's hope even in the face of a possible Demon, who DESPRATELY needs to be refferenced, but who Balin may refuse to believe still inhabits the realm which he laid to ruin a thousand years earlier.

The other is that Balin will resent the kingship of Dain, who is specifically mentioned as "refusing" to come or lend aid to the pivotal quest itself, and are only seen to show up after the great dragon is safely out of the picture. Balin (who has been shown to be capable of recalcitrance, as in Rivendell with Thorin and Elrond), may resent the rule of Dain and the death of Thorin enough that he will not wish to reside in Erebor. Dain, who it is to be hoped we will discover witnessed the horror of The Balrog with Thorin, perhaps having dared briefly enter Moria in hopes of assuring Azog was finished, may try to dissuade him, but not be believed at least not to convincingly.

In Reply To
A while ago I made a thread praising this character and Mr Stott's performance, which, to my mind, was one of the best highlights of the movie. However, this time I am raising a point made by a family member concerning Balin's 'lack of usefulness'. This is *not* my own opinion, I just wanted to see how everybody feels about this point.

The point made by said family member was this: the choice to make Balin very old is fine, as this is in accordance with the book (though he was *not* older than Thorin, as he clearly is in the film). Where the problem lies is that Balin is supposed to be the very dwarf who later sets out to reclaim Moria and who becomes Lord of Moria (albeit for a short time). The Balin in the films however does not appear eager to reclaim Erebor from Smaug and so why should he feel obliged to take Moria, when it is controlled by many Orcs/Goblins and a much more powerful guardian?

However, that is not the biggest problem. The biggest problem (remember, not my words), is that Balin is not one of the most useful members of the company *in the film version*. Sure, he is wise (though that is rather trumped when Gandalf is with you), and he provides a signature as witness to the contract, but he does very little else of consequence. In the book he is "always their lookout", but they missed both of their main opportunities so far to use his lookout skills: he does not see the light from the troll's campfire, and he is not on guard when Bilbo appears in front of them. Lack of wasted opportunity? Maybe. Hopefully the EE and/or the next film may change some of this.

One word in his defence though-he is mean with that sword-mace of his.Laugh


"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"

"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 28 2013, 12:55am

Post #11 of 36 (829 views)
Shortcut
of course not! [In reply to] Can't Post

 
brethil, of course not!!!

i am maciliel! i blunt knives when i wish! i bend forks, i smash bottles, i burn corks! i am strong, strong, STRONG! my manners are like tenfold dwarves! my verbs like swords! my exclamation points, spears! the shock of my wiping my feet on other people's glory boxes, a thunderbolt! my wings, with honey-mustard sauce!

ahem.

i also chip glasses and crack plates, and have +definitely+ been known to walk on tables.

brethil, you can stay in middle earth as long as you like. for my part, i'm just having a merry gallop through rohan (waves to eomer).


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 28 2013, 12:56am)


Kaede
Rivendell

Apr 28 2013, 2:13am

Post #12 of 36 (849 views)
Shortcut
...and there are two to go [In reply to] Can't Post

I second that post re: we've only seen the first movie. Balin is a fount of information and information has strategic value in any business/venture/band of dwarves. He knows things, his mind is sharp, he holds his own in the company just fine. He is also the only other dwarf privy to the information that Elrond reveals about the map, and once he gets over his dwarvish suspicions about Elrond, he listens to the text of the moon runes and is immediately in collaboration mode with Thorin and Gandalf. I'm very interested to see what additional info we get from the extended cut--but I didn't get the impression that the information in the moon runes was shared with the others. So our dear friend Balin has some key strategic moments still to come, I think. (Fingers crossed that this reply is in line with guidelines...first post!)

(This post was edited by Kaede on Apr 28 2013, 2:14am)


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Apr 28 2013, 10:07am

Post #13 of 36 (771 views)
Shortcut
Woot! Newbie alert! [In reply to] Can't Post

Welcome, Kaede! Glad to have you join us. I just checked your profile and love your story about discovering the calendar in your classroom, your teacher's nudge, and saving your money to buy the books. Neat story!

And of course your post fits with guidelines; and not only on topic but thoughtful too. (But don't worry, we go off topic plenty too, and thread hijackings aren't uncommon.)

And with regards to your actual post: you know, I never thought about whether Balin and Thorin shared the rune info with the others in the Company. You may be right; and if so, I wonder when/how/why that info will be revealed to the others. Something to ponder!


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Apr 28 2013, 1:57pm

Post #14 of 36 (722 views)
Shortcut
Lol [In reply to] Can't Post

Greetings Maciliel

I was making a jest...

Besmirched is a fancy word...Wink

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 28 2013, 2:09pm

Post #15 of 36 (709 views)
Shortcut
lusitano, hallo! : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
heya, lusitano : )

just checking, as i honestly wasn't sure what you were trying to convey....

i wasn't trying to besmirch your intentions. or smirch them, either.


cheers, and no worries : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 28 2013, 2:17pm

Post #16 of 36 (703 views)
Shortcut
btw [In reply to] Can't Post

 
btw, meaning no thread hijacking, but i thought it might be nice to let you know that i, too, have been watching vikings, and have been enjoying it immensely. last week's ep ("sacrifice") was simultaneously disturbing, illuminating, and poetic.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Kaede
Rivendell

Apr 28 2013, 2:54pm

Post #17 of 36 (711 views)
Shortcut
blushes... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for the kind welcome. Blush And may I add that I loved how Ken Stott played Balin. He had me at "Yes, yes--it is [a good evening]...though I think it might rrrain later." Adored that little smile he does--and he presents the character as a brilliant friendly (arms open wide) contrast to his much more surly brother, Dwalin. It's a small thing that is a big thing--immediately tells us that Jackson's dwarves will not be a pack of all-same characters.


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Apr 28 2013, 7:22pm

Post #18 of 36 (651 views)
Shortcut
Oh no i merely [In reply to] Can't Post

spoke in jest. If you saw a recent got episode with a....cutting finale...you would know the joke.

Plus i find the word sooo fancyWink

Glad to know Sir Dennis and i are not the only Vikings fans around here. I love the show, especially the invasion of England, and the clash between the invaders and the poor victims...

This last episode, ye sit was a bit unsettling ...but somehow it didnt resonate much with me...i prefer the adventure, coninving, scheming, invading sort of episodes.

Cheer up, another tonight.Smile

As to Balin, i agree that they are building an arc for him.A bit predictable , but i hope it will be effective. I look forward to seeing him enter Moria. I have no doubt jackson will be filming these scenes in Moria.

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 28 2013, 9:16pm

Post #19 of 36 (623 views)
Shortcut
ah, but [In reply to] Can't Post

 
ah, but a girl +does+ watch got, and now knows of what a man speaks.


and a girl looks forward to 9pm.


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Apr 28 2013, 10:13pm

Post #20 of 36 (634 views)
Shortcut
Banish the besmirching of Balin! [In reply to] Can't Post

But if I didn't know what "besmirching" means, I'd think it sounds kinda fun. Especially if it involves Thorin. C'mere, Thorin, and give me a good besmirching...


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Apr 28 2013, 11:00pm

Post #21 of 36 (604 views)
Shortcut
A man understands that [In reply to] Can't Post

A Girl is awesome. Wink


A man looks forward to discussing these matters...

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 28 2013, 11:48pm

Post #22 of 36 (601 views)
Shortcut
roheryn tiberius roheryn -- [In reply to] Can't Post

 
lmdao! (laugh my dwarven *** off!)

roheryn tiberius roheryn, i am trying so hard to be polite and respectful when i reference thorin, and between you and brethil, you're just leading me down the path of dwarven perdition.

'tho i will say, thorin looks like he needs a good besmirching, for his own benefit. even if i were not the besmircher.


(i still, btw, have quite the crooked smile on my face from your besmirching comment.)


cheers : / (that's emoticon speak for "crooked smile")


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 28 2013, 11:51pm

Post #23 of 36 (589 views)
Shortcut
ha! : ) [In reply to] Can't Post

 
a man (or this girl) can start a got thread on offtopic.

a girl looks forward to discussions.


cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 29 2013, 12:35am

Post #24 of 36 (584 views)
Shortcut
**Mac you are too funny** [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
lmdao! (laugh my dwarven *** off!)

roheryn tiberius roheryn, i am trying so hard to be polite and respectful when i reference thorin, and between you and brethil, you're just leading me down the path of dwarven perdition.




Personally, I like my Thorin with extra perdition, Mac. Evil

And that 'besmirching' sounds awesome, Ro, in your context!!!! (But for the record I also want none for Balin. And I do think his broken great heart will lead him to Moria.)

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Apr 29 2013, 12:50am

Post #25 of 36 (585 views)
Shortcut
I just wanted to chime in with [In reply to] Can't Post

my support for Balin, my favorite of the dwarves. Ken Stott did a brilliant job with the character, and Weta gave me my favorite dwarf design along with Dwalin and Bombur. And he's anything but useless-- he's Thorin's consiglieri, his most valued lieutenant! And i have a feeling that Balin's only going to get better and better.

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.