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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
What is Dwalin saying?
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Bellerock
Rivendell

Apr 27 2013, 4:46pm

Post #1 of 27 (1365 views)
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What is Dwalin saying? Can't Post

Okay, so I've been watching my dvd of the movie with subtitles on. It's fun, because there is a lot of dialog going on in the background that I never caught in the theater. (Yes, Bombur does speak.) However, at the end of the escape from Goblin Town, just after the dwarves fall down an impossibly long shaft while clinging to bits of scaffolding, Bofur says "Well, that could have been worse." Then the Great Goblin flops down on top of them and Dwalin says "Haver! You've got to be joking!" So my question is what does "haver" mean? Considering the circumstances it might not be very polite, or is it just a typo?Wink


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2013, 4:58pm

Post #2 of 27 (944 views)
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"Haver" is a Scottish slang term [In reply to] Can't Post

meaning to talk non-sense or rubbish. I learned that from that 90s Proclaimers song '500 Miles' ha ha.


(This post was edited by sauget.diblosio on Apr 27 2013, 5:00pm)


Bellerock
Rivendell

Apr 27 2013, 5:02pm

Post #3 of 27 (747 views)
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Oh, Interesting! [In reply to] Can't Post

So, do you think that Dwalin is responding directly to Bofur? I always assumed that he was just addressing the air.


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Apr 27 2013, 5:19pm

Post #4 of 27 (758 views)
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One that annoys me - the "Scarf 'em I say" subtitles should say "Scoff 'em" [In reply to] Can't Post

According to online sources there is an American usage of the term "Scarf-down" that means to eat hastily?

I've never heard of that in the UK. Here we say "Scoff" (but usually not "scoff-down" that sounds odd to me). We'd say, for example "He's scoffing all the pies!". I've checked, and it's very obvious that the troll is using the British "scoff" not American "scarf" despite what the subtitles tell you Tongue


Old Toby
Gondor


Apr 27 2013, 5:41pm

Post #5 of 27 (630 views)
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I haven't tried watching it with the subtitles yet [In reply to] Can't Post

but will be doing so at some point! And subtitles aren't always what's actually being said either. I'm not sure how the whole subtitle translations work, but sometimes they leave a lot to be desired. And sometimes they are so off from what is actually being said that they are funny, particularly in the case of translating from one language to another! But in the case of this movie, I've already learned some the meaning of some words or expressions I hadn't heard before, so that's a good thing!

"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2013, 6:39pm

Post #6 of 27 (618 views)
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Yup. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
According to online sources there is an American usage of the term "Scarf-down" that means to eat hastily?

As in "I only had 15 minutes for lunch today, so i had to scarf down my 4 tacos."

I'd never heard "scoff" in reference to eating before.


Bellerock
Rivendell

Apr 27 2013, 6:48pm

Post #7 of 27 (603 views)
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You're right about the subtitles not always being what is said. [In reply to] Can't Post

For example, when Dori is hanging onto the end of Gandalf's staff, dangling over a precipice with Ori clinging to his foot, the subtitles have Dori saying "Oh no, Ori". While this is not inappropriate given the circumstances, what I hear is "Hang on, Ori". I guess I might have to try lip reading next.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2013, 7:03pm

Post #8 of 27 (622 views)
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Interesting...what is Bombur's dialogue? Something concerning food, one would imagine? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Eleniel
Grey Havens


Apr 27 2013, 7:14pm

Post #9 of 27 (602 views)
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Scoff came first... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's been used in England since the 1850s, and in turn was derived from "scaff".

"Scarf" is probably a corruption of "scoff:

http://dictionary.reference.com/slang/scarf+down

Quote

scarf3
/skrf/ Show
Spelle[skahrf] verb (used with object), verb (used without object) Slang.
to eat, especially voraciously (often followed by down or up) : to scarf down junk food.



Origin:
1955C60,
Americanism; variant of scoff2 , with r inserted probably through r-dialect speakers' mistaking the underlying vowel as an r-less ar



"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Victoria Monfort


Lissuin
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2013, 7:38pm

Post #10 of 27 (578 views)
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"Scoff" in American English means "to ridicule something" [In reply to] Can't Post

as in "He scoffed at the idea that Bilbo could fight."
If the subtitles were produced in the US (only guessing at that), a translator would take the term that made the most sense to them in that context. "Scarf" is used there to mean to eat something quickly.


MadgeBishop
The Shire

Apr 27 2013, 8:45pm

Post #11 of 27 (527 views)
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Scoff also means to ridicule an idea or someone in English English too! [In reply to] Can't Post

Haver in Scots means to suffer from indecision or talk rubbish (as noted above). Dwalin cannot have said this to my mind.

To my (Glaswegian) ears the "word" uttered by Dwalin is not a word at all but an exclamation of exasperation. Like so: "Hwoooar! You've got to be joking!". This is an entirely likely turn of phrase in Scotland.

Edit: Scoff also means to eat too. It has multiple meanings.


(This post was edited by MadgeBishop on Apr 27 2013, 8:48pm)


Roheryn
Grey Havens

Apr 27 2013, 9:43pm

Post #12 of 27 (495 views)
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Nor do they always have the speaker correct! [In reply to] Can't Post

I suppose we should take who the subtitles identify as the speaker for the background dialogue bits with a grain of salt. The one place I know they're wrong: in the troll scene, when Bilbo has jumped up in his sack and is suggesting the best way to cook dwarf, Thorin struggling in his sack in the background yells "TRAITOR!" The subtitles identify the speaker as Bombur, not Thorin, but it is very clearly Thorin since you can see him say the word. This makes me wonder if other speakers are misidentified for background lines when we can't see the speaker; I'm not that great at picking out the nuances differentiating all 13 Dwarves' voices. Except Thorin's, of course. Smile


Glorfindela
Valinor


Apr 27 2013, 9:57pm

Post #13 of 27 (485 views)
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I'd never heard of the term 'scarf down' until now! [In reply to] Can't Post

That's despite working on anglicizations quite often! Perhaps it just doesn't occur in the types of publication I'm involved in. 'Scoff' is commonly used in Britain, as in 'I scoffed five slices of Victoria sandwich the other day'.


In Reply To

In Reply To
According to online sources there is an American usage of the term "Scarf-down" that means to eat hastily?

As in "I only had 15 minutes for lunch today, so i had to scarf down my 4 tacos."

I'd never heard "scoff" in reference to eating before.



Glorfindela
Valinor


Apr 27 2013, 9:59pm

Post #14 of 27 (496 views)
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'Scoff' is also used in this way in Britain. [In reply to] Can't Post

As in, 'I scoffed at the idea of eating five slices of Victoria sandwich'.


In Reply To
as in "He scoffed at the idea that Bilbo could fight."
If the subtitles were produced in the US (only guessing at that), a translator would take the term that made the most sense to them in that context. "Scarf" is used there to mean to eat something quickly.



Bellerock
Rivendell

Apr 27 2013, 10:39pm

Post #15 of 27 (567 views)
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Well, Bombur is mentioned three or four times. [In reply to] Can't Post

The first few are in the Troll scene where Bombur is noted as saying "Untie me, mister!", "Traitor", and finally "Aah!" when Tom drops him in disgust. I'm not so sure about the "Traitor" attribution, as I always thought it was Thorin who said that.

The other place I recall that Bombur has dialog is during the escape from Goblin-town. At one point he is shown as yelling "Go, go, go!"

He probably doesn't talk much about food, because when food is around he is too busy eatingWink


Lusitano
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2013, 10:52pm

Post #16 of 27 (492 views)
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Gibberish [In reply to] Can't Post

.

Vous commencez m'ennuyer avec le port!!!


burgahobbit
Rohan


Apr 28 2013, 1:49am

Post #17 of 27 (426 views)
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One of my favorite things about TORn [In reply to] Can't Post

Is learning about things like this. I think I've always said "scarf down" (I'm an American) but my dad recently said "scoff down" and then the rest of my family argued with him over which was correct. I never got around to looking it up but now I know! Thanks guys! Smile


QuackingTroll
Valinor


Apr 28 2013, 8:42am

Post #18 of 27 (379 views)
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Say scoff in an American accent. It sounds a bit like scarf // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Yngwulff
Gondor


Apr 28 2013, 8:45am

Post #19 of 27 (373 views)
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Which one? [In reply to] Can't Post

In which American dialect would scoff sound like scarf?


Take this Brother May it Serve you Well
Vote for Pedro!

(This post was edited by Yngwulff on Apr 28 2013, 8:46am)


sauget.diblosio
Tol Eressea


Apr 28 2013, 11:56am

Post #20 of 27 (347 views)
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People say scoff in America all the time, [In reply to] Can't Post

and it sounds like scoff, not scarf. If anything, scarf could sound like scoff with mayby an extremely strong Boston of Brooklyn accent, but those accents are pretty rare, and confined to pretty small, specific areas.


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Apr 28 2013, 3:44pm

Post #21 of 27 (330 views)
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Ah, thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't envy the close-caption writers having to discern all the Dwarf background babble! Tongue Hopefully Bombur will actually speak with a bit of focus on him in the EE and/or DoS.

My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!


Kristin Thompson
Rohan


Apr 28 2013, 4:50pm

Post #22 of 27 (321 views)
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Not hyphenated [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know where the notion that "scarf-down" is the way to write this. "Scarf down" is basically parallel to "drink down," as far as I can tell, as in "Drink your milk down to the last drop, and I'll give you cookie." "Down" doesn't have to be right after "scarf." And I believe it's common in the USA to use "scarf" on its own, as in "Scarf that burger, or we'll be late for the game."


Aragalen the Green
Gondor


Apr 28 2013, 5:12pm

Post #23 of 27 (310 views)
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'Tis true! [In reply to] Can't Post

I've heard it used (and used myself!) as either scarf or scarf down (non-hyphenated, I guess); as in "my kids scarfed down all the pizza" or "I'd better scarf my breakfast or I'll be late". Where I live (Western US) "scoff" means to be scornful of something.

Scarf also means a pretty length of fabric draped attractively around one's neck and/or shoulders. Tongue

'"Never laugh at live dragons, Bilbo you fool!" he said to himself, and it became a favourite saying of his later, and passed into a proverb.'


Magpie
Immortal


Apr 28 2013, 5:19pm

Post #24 of 27 (318 views)
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I would be very surprised... [In reply to] Can't Post

...if closed captions were derived by what the captioner can hear in any case where a script exists. When a script exists, they usually work from that.

Having to *hear* what's being said is employed for live and/or unscripted dialog.

That said, I am certain there are times when closed captions are created from a script and, in the final cut, the script has changed. I only notice this with tv shows, however. In those cases, dialog (or sometimes lyrics to a song) is captioned that is clearly NOT being said so it's not a matter of mishearing. However, I would not think that to be the case for a movie.

Additionally, it's possible the script provided to the captioners could be inaccurate. Perhaps lines were written for one person that, at the end of all takes and edits, were said by another person. It could be the people responsible for passing that script to the captioners didn't know a change had been made.

and, I was checking trivia at imdb for TH:AUJ and Bombur not speaking is in there. That needs to be corrected along with Jed not having his face every shown in LOTR (which was a thread topic on the LOTR board recently). Someone go get on that! :-)


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide

(This post was edited by Magpie on Apr 28 2013, 5:21pm)


Captain Salt
Tol Eressea


Apr 28 2013, 5:25pm

Post #25 of 27 (309 views)
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This is what I meant, as the background Dwarf chatter was most likely (largely) unscripted...the script of course is used when possible./ [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...if closed captions were derived by what the captioner can hear in any case where a script exists. When a script exists, they usually work from that.

Having to *hear* what's being said is employed for live and/or unscripted dialog.


My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!

(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Apr 28 2013, 5:27pm)

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