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creative types and how they use their gifts
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Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2013, 1:15pm

Post #1 of 37 (524 views)
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creative types and how they use their gifts Can't Post

 
mae govannen --

i've been musing in real time and in tolkien time about creative types (of which i am one), and how they chose to 1) use their gifts; and 2) conduct themselves around others, including others with talents.

creativity, artistry, talents, have been a major theme in our discussions of the silmarilion. so many characters with creative gifts: feanor, miriel, nerdanel, melkor, the noldor, aule, mahtan, yavanna, maeglin, eol, the dwarves, etc.

some creative types are overflowing with so many blessings of talent. like melkor. but melkor, despite given many talents of magnificent scale, and endless days in which to explore them, does not say, "thanks, eru!" and scamper along with his landscape paintbrushes and mountain modeling clay. right from the beginning, he is spilling oceans that ulmo has collected, razing mountains that others had raised.

it is not enough for melkor to do his thing. he seems to want to deny the value of the creative output of others, going far enough to want to destroy it, even if he winds up spending more time destroying others efforts instead of creating his own. which is +astounding+, considering how many talents he has, how special they are, and the vast canvas he's given to explore and celebrate.

other creative types, like aule, yavanna, just seem to like to do good work. if someone has another idea, they're often inspired to collaborate (think yavanna and manwe, and the origins of the ents and the eagles).

some creative types are truly in love with what they do. praise is great, but it's not the goal.

but for others, even to hear the work of others praised rankles. i can't imagine melkor feeling gladness in his heart when others heap compliments on yavanna for the kelvar and olvar.

i definitely see that in real life as well. which is odd, because so many around them may not have those gifts ("i could never do that! how wonderful!"), so they are often singled out as being special or gifted. but apparently for many, that is either not enough or -- interestingly -- it's not the critical asset (either the +perception+ of being unique is, or being the only one praised is... rather than creation itself being its own reward).

i also want to look at creativity beyond the traditional arts. traditionally we recognize painting, writing, etc., as being creative (i do those as well). but i see creativity in many guises. cooking, finances, gardening, etc.

so, considering all the ways that beings are creative, why isn't enough for some creative types to just create? why does it cause pain to them to hear other's praised for their work?

there are scads of creative types in tolkien's work, but he grants more word count to the troublemakers, rather than those that go about their project peaceably.

is tolkien saying something about creative types? or he just happens to talk about the troublemakers because a lot of epic history gets triggered by their actions?


cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 26 2013, 1:18pm)


Escapist
Gondor


Apr 26 2013, 1:31pm

Post #2 of 37 (351 views)
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There is great diversity in creative types and how they react to things. [In reply to] Can't Post

I can speak somewhat for that stereotypical sensitive/shy artist archetype - very different than the Melkor type. This type is much more concerned with their own stuff and inherently and naturally resistant to sharing "their world" with others for fear of getting hurt or losing it. If this type existed in Middle Earth, I am willing to bet that their work never made it into the public eye or annals of recorded history.

The unfortunate thing is that the world isn't at all attuned to this type whatsoever right now. We are in the Facebook generation where stealing another person's work and making a killing with it is celebrated as a form of brilliance. It's amazing that anyone has the courage to continue spending their effort and energy on original creative pursuits, but there are other creative archetypes that are less sensitive to this cultural movement and still actively creating, It is a "thing" though that has been criticized that in our times currently, the remaking of someone else's stuff has become quite safe and popular leading to a dearth of actual creative work and a flood of re-makes and adaptations. That is what you get, Facebook generation! Eat it Cool.

In my own case, I am deciding whether or not I ought to go ahead and full-on just start hoarding all of my talents as shamelessly and unapolageticly as others would just take it, do whatever they want with it, and call themselves brilliant for it (sort of like devouring me whole). I'm kind of thinking yeah.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2013, 1:48pm

Post #3 of 37 (360 views)
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+great+ post, escapist [In reply to] Can't Post

 
+great+ post, escapist... i really like many of the interesting thoughts (so thank you for sharing your creativity +here+! : ) ).

i know what you mean by the copiers in our culture. right now, that's loosely labeled under "remixing," "homage," "mash-up." i think a lot of it is just scraping someone else's output to make up for the lack of creativity or effort in one's own.

you also bring up a great point about shyness, and there's also introversion (which isn't quite the same thing). and some creative activities lend themselves to introversion or extroversion. musicians can practice alone, play solo to an audience, or jam with others. painters... well, you can create scenarios, but generally painters and writers spend a lot of time alone in order to produce.

i also think it's interesting that someone with creative gifts might choose to hide them away from others, for fear of them being stolen, or used in a way the creator would not like.

i think, for all the laurels our culture heaps on creators, we don't really back it up (arts programs are the first cut, as is funding to art museums; artists get paid very little, when considered as a class). we seem to have a need to be distracted, a need to be entertained, a need to be inspired, but we don't really seem to value it, when it comes to parting with money.

i've witnessed this scenario often, re things that i create, and re things others create:

someone walks up to a painting, or reads a poem... there is happiness and pleasure and sometimes even wonder at experiencing this thing that was created. "that's so beautiful! wow, your work touches me! i could never do that!"

but there's a pass on the price. a pencil sketch for $25 - $50, that took perhaps 10 hours to produce. the hourly is below minimum wage for that. paying for poetry? ha!

back to tolkien...

perhaps for some artists there's also an issue of "ownership" of works. yavanna doesn't feel she owns her creations, the noldor at first freely give the jewels they create to all, and they glitter, rolling loose on the beaches of valinor as the waves tumble in and scurry back to the sea.

but melkor seems to be an "ownership" type. he certainly wants to own the silmarils, which are not even of his making. perhaps, by owning them, he becomes like a modern "remixer" who cannot create anything on par, so tries to subsume it? claim the originality by virtue of possessing it?


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 26 2013, 1:54pm)


Escapist
Gondor


Apr 26 2013, 2:01pm

Post #4 of 37 (344 views)
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You talk about a variety of different things as if they were the same thing. [In reply to] Can't Post

All of these things seem like they are nuanced from each other (at least to me):
*Fair Use
*Use for instructional purposes
*Use for inspiration of new works
*Mashups / Remixes
*Plagiaristic stealing of intellectual property
*Starving artists
*Eating someone else's creative core whole to fill the void of your own - not only taking it, but taking it AWAY FROM THEM as well so that they can't use it or benefit from it anymore themselves

There are complex rules about all of this and even more complex social norms depending on the particular social circle involved. HOWEVER, it trends these days in the favor of he who has the money without much consideration for anything else, so, if a person is serious about keeping their own stuff, well, they better do that.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2013, 2:23pm

Post #5 of 37 (348 views)
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no, not speaking about them as if they are the same... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
...but definitely speaking of many things in one post that are related to creativity and output.

1. am in agreement that there are nuances.
2. am aware of legal and social rules of conduct around use and reuse

if you'd like to elaborate on any of these things, or relate how it has impacted your work directly, that would be welcome.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Escapist
Gondor


Apr 26 2013, 2:40pm

Post #6 of 37 (343 views)
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Mostly, I can't because of the last reason given above. [In reply to] Can't Post

That last one is a true killer of creativity. Any of the others are some blend of injustice / extension of the original creative gift.

However, I can a little bit. I admit to listening to youtube mashups and remixes but I don't download music of any kind without paying for it any more (and haven't for years). I have rigorously edited any influences out of my own ideas that are too closely connected to the ideas of others to address the fact that I simply don't have money to buy the rights to things and such a move is only possible for the very rich and powerful today. I have taken down all of my artwork from the internet except one thing. I have stopped all fan-fic writing (a thing that I only tried for a few months and only feel that I benefited via the school of hard knocks - the fast way of learning lessons that maybe I could have learned without so much time and struggle).

I agree that all those things are related to creativity and output. That is true. Sorry if I jumped at you a bit, there. I feel like part of the spirit of today's culture is that if you use facebook or youtube then you have surrendered all of your creative rights morally (and in some cases, actually). So I haven't logged into facebook for years and probably should start thinking about ditching youtube next - at least for listening to music.

I wish I could say more, but it is affecting me a lot these days in ways that make me maybe over sensitive to these kinds of issues (sorry for that) - and the truth is that I really regret sharing most (but not quite all) of what I have shared with anyone but a close friend or family member in a face to face setting. I can't think of any upsides to any of it, except maybe for any ideas or discussions I had here. But TORn, I think, is a bit of an anomaly when it comes to respecting other persons across the board and including creative expression. Well, I guess that I can think of good results that came from other attempts at sharing, but mostly they came at heavy personal expense (with few exceptions) and I kind of suspect that any potential benefit from sharing in that way has already been exhausted.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2013, 3:20pm

Post #7 of 37 (339 views)
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ah, no worries : )n [In reply to] Can't Post

 
tone is often ambiguous on written form
also, i know i can be a very exuberant poster; perhaps i came off as unfocused, or was not a good match for your current frame of mind. i tried to be more precise and less rambling in my reply, and i hope i didn't come off abruptly.


i'm so very sorry to hear of your megative experiences. such a contrast against the pleasures of creating.

i am a writer (prose, fiction, poetry, reviews, features) but i don't willingly put anything on the web. +lots+ of reviews I've written have been "content scraped"/copied/used without permission, but in those cases, i was paid for my work. i would not share my creative output in anything akin to a fanfic forum, for the reasons you describe. but the cameraderie and sharing and support those forums offer are positive things. there are definite risks, tho.

similarly, i won't put my artwork on the web. again, for the reasons you outline. but some people do, for professional reasons... they need to have a portfolio sample available to prospective clients.

you sound like you're in a tough spot right now. all i can humbly offer is that you keep believing in yourself, keep believing in your creativity...and if you need to create and keep it private, that's ok. the important thing is that you continue to create.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Ethel Duath
Valinor


Apr 26 2013, 3:58pm

Post #8 of 37 (332 views)
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Great post! Thank you. [In reply to] Can't Post

There is a tremendous amount of food for thought here. And reading the posts below, it's clear that at least Mim, if not Melkor is on the loose these days.

This reminds me of some vague memory I have of C.S. Lewis addressing something in this vein. With that idea in the back of my mind, I think it's that personal character is separate from one's gifts. If people (or Valar) tend to jealousy and envy and/or pride, I think the central temptation would be for them to make sure their accomplishments come out on top. And the "emptier" they are inside, the more they would want to destroy the work of others, to make sure there are no rivals--nothing to "detract" from those accomplishments. Ironically, I think Melkor missed the point that if viewed without a need to "rank" things as to greater or lesser, all creative efforts tend to enhance each other--prime the inner pump to see and receive beauty, new thoughts and images, deeper expression of feeling, and all the other things creativity does for us. And the realization that (I think this is a direct Lewis quote,or something he quoted from another source): "The highest does not stand without the lowest."

The exception, I guess, would be creative efforts with a bad end in mind, like someone writing songs for the Hitler Youth or artwork glorifying serial killers or something.

Melkor missed the fact that if he put his works in place along with the other Vala, the sum total would be far greater and more wonderful than any of the individual parts. He made himself poorer, not just those whose works he harmed.


Escapist
Gondor


Apr 26 2013, 4:23pm

Post #9 of 37 (334 views)
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I think you essentially found a land mine [In reply to] Can't Post

no fault of your own Tongue

It seems you are up a bit further down this road I am currently exploring and I am just recently or in the process of figuring things out that you know and practice.

It is a tough spot but I whole-heartedly agree that to me the most important thing is to be able to keep creating since it is a major part of my emotional healing process (sublimation through art and crystalizing dream images into something tangible). If it ever sees the light of day it will be posthumous and because someone I know well cared. Wink


Escapist
Gondor


Apr 26 2013, 5:23pm

Post #10 of 37 (317 views)
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Besides Melkor [In reply to] Can't Post

and Mim (good call), other creative types I can think of surround the person of Feanor such as Nerdanel and Miriel. I wonder how the history of Arda as we know it would be changed if Miriel had chosen differently?


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2013, 5:26pm

Post #11 of 37 (325 views)
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Letter 131... [In reply to] Can't Post

Letter 131 (to Miltin Waldman) in Tolkien's Letters has a long discussion of this topic (the same letter is printed in the Sulmarillion 2e)

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 26 2013, 5:40pm

Post #12 of 37 (316 views)
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Perhaps it is what is driving the artist? [In reply to] Can't Post

Melkor for example strikes me as an externalizing creationist: he creates to gain accolades, approval, love. If that is denied - for example his melodies during the Song - the process takes on the color of the rejection, and alters his internal worth and goals. Whereas Aule seems to be more internalizing, creating from sheer love of the materials and the work, and moving on to the next task without necessarily taking any else's opinion (the matter of the Dwarves a bit of a different level of drama; but I fully believe if Eru had allowed Aule to smash the Dwarves he would have dried his tears and gone back to work) or if given allowing that opinion to change his assessment of his work or himself.

It strikes me often that especially in our modern culture of superstardom and massive media saturation, the externalizing personality has a dangerous road to travel. Scathing rejection is just the click of a mouse away, and if one does what one does for the purpose of approval in order to maintain self esteem, I wonder if that is why there are so many dysfunctional relationships among those in the limelight.

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


CuriousG
Valinor


Apr 26 2013, 5:53pm

Post #13 of 37 (318 views)
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Jealous from insecurity? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
so, considering all the ways that beings are creative, why isn't enough for some creative types to just create? why does it cause pain to them to hear other's praised for their work?

My guess is that some artists worry that their work isn't good enough, or is only average, or its flaws reflect their personal flaws more than its majesty reflects their majesty. And as human beings go, everyone's insecure about something, so I wouldn't say they're unreasonable in their worries. If you worry that your work is just average or even bad, and it was an intimate expression of your inner self, then you conclude that your inner self is defective. That's on an individual level.

It makes you feel worse if you see someone else's work praised, because they've proven, in a sense, that great beauty can be created, only it didn't/couldn't come from you, which leaves you feeling defeated in a comparative sense, not just an individual sense. Hence artists can wind up criticizing each other out of spite and jealousy instead of supporting each other .

Revealing your inner sense is always risky and often backfires, which is why no one does it very often, even in normal conversation, not just art. To channel your sense of inner beauty into a work of beauty to share with the world that is then dismissed leaves the channel wide open for the outer anguish to flow back inside of you. Ouch! I'm not going to have sympathy for Melkor, since he had other issues, but I think this "wounded artist" could partly be at play in him.

That's for some creative types. There are plenty who do create just because it pleases them to do so. They have happened upon some secrets to a happy way of life that elude the others. It seems admirable that the Inklings were a supportive group and didn't appear jealous of each other.


(This post was edited by CuriousG on Apr 26 2013, 5:55pm)


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Apr 26 2013, 7:31pm

Post #14 of 37 (302 views)
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Fanfic [In reply to] Can't Post

As someone who has written fanfic in another fandom (Harry Potter) I guess I don't understand the perceived danger. I liked sharing my creations on the Web (where they remain to this day) and especially getting the feedback of readers who enjoyed them. Since these creations of mine have no monetary value (being derivative works in a sense themselves) I'm not sure what would constitute "theft" of them. Yes, someone could republish a story by me under their own name, with or without making some cosmetic changes and that would be plagiarism but I guess I do not see what the downside is for me on a practical level. I know what I wrote, and I already enjoyed the feedback.

I can understand you would be more guarded regarding salable writings, as a professional writer. I am myself a professional in a different creative field (math/stats) and there I am decidedly more guarded. (Also, contractually obligated to be so.)


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Apr 26 2013, 7:43pm

Post #15 of 37 (302 views)
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Character vs gifts [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
With that idea in the back of my mind, I think it's that personal character is separate from one's gifts. If people (or Valar) tend to jealousy and envy and/or pride, I think the central temptation would be for them to make sure their accomplishments come out on top.


I think this hits the nail on the head. I don't think character flaws and bad actions by creative people are something that is intrinsic to creative people (as opposed to, something intrinsic in *all* people). Rather, creative people (and also athletic people, and beautiful people, and all other sorts of people) are people first and they can have flaws and insecurities that cause them to behave badly. In a creative character this could take the form it does in Melkor, of wishing to destroy the creations of others. But I don't think he is behaving from a difference that is due to his creativity. I think he is behaving as a star athlete might who places his own fame and success above the success of a team by getting in the way of the success of his (also talented) teammate, or as a pretty, popular girl in a high school might when she tries to turn her friends against another girl she fear is a rival.


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 26 2013, 7:45pm

Post #16 of 37 (307 views)
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re fanfic [In reply to] Can't Post

 
not so much concern for a word for word fanfic, as a derivative work, but i would be concerned that things like the following might be lifted ...

1. turns of phrase
2. descriptions
3. plotting and language
4. characters that i create

... any of the above of my creation in the framework of Harry Potter or star trek or lotr would not be saleable in that form. but i could still take my core ideas, my characters, my language, unhook them from rowling's /roddenberry's/tolkien's and put them in a universe of my own making.

i don't really have a problem with fanfic, and (again) i can see how it's a great, supportive environment. it's just not for me. : )

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 26 2013, 7:46pm)


Escapist
Gondor


Apr 26 2013, 8:49pm

Post #17 of 37 (293 views)
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RE: fanfic worries [In reply to] Can't Post

I encountered a variety of concerning issues when I tried fan-fic out.

(1) This surprised me, but other fans are quite particular about fan-fic and can get quite irritated / irate about it when it isn't to their taste or clashes with their own versions of what fits in the undefined grey areas or if you use a character from Tolkien's writing in a way that they find objectionable in the slightest. I'm not even talking about shipping or "improving" or anachronisms, here. I got mixed feedback. Some good, some bad. Very little of it was "meh" or if the feedback was "meh" it came alongside a rich and detailed set of reasons why that told me that something about what I had written was sticking in the minds and possibly striking a chord in people - although not always a pleasant one, apparently. I'm not really interested in making that much friction and now that I've learned what I needed to I would rather do without it.

(2) While pure fan-fic that doesn't contain much original material (and is therefore less likely to be subject to the issues in (1)) is not as sensitive to this issue, fan-fic that mixes elements of your own invention with another iconic writer's ideas is dangerous stuff! If you put your own ideas into a fan-fic then it is "up for grabs" and possibly by people who have the power to TAKE it from you, actually (or might want to try and could have the power to do it if not the right to do so ... which they might also have). So I am glad that my foray into it was highly guarded and selective and that the bits that I did toss in of my own are not essential and I won't use them in my own project and really don't care if others use it either. They were just part of a kind of "experimentation" I went through to really thoroughly understand how all the complexities of both social and legal limitations work out. But I learned that these kinds of experiments cannot be done with any bits that I actually want to keep myself without stupid risk so there is no point in trying anything like this any more (now that I have run out of the bits and pieces that are safe to experiment with).

(3) I found out that while fan-fic seems fairly safe right now because of how common it is, there are some legal risks to writing it and it may not stay safe (and I worry about future retroactive actions) - I didn't find out the hard way, quite ... but I could see how that could play out from what I tried ... and that there are people willing to press that issue around ... nothing happened but I sensed the threat of it.

I am also in math/stats and while not contractually obligated to be so, I am nonetheless obligated by other factors to be silent. I guess that it is even more restrictive than creative writing in many ways while also being less. It's not working out well - I think that while I can see that I have solved a lot of problems - I can't talk about it or shouldn't at great pain - and that is all without a contract to protect me or anything like that. It is a situation that I don't plan to put myself in anymore and don't have to.


Ethel Duath
Valinor


Apr 27 2013, 4:39pm

Post #18 of 37 (259 views)
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Did you mean if [In reply to] Can't Post

Miriel had not departed, or if she had not married Finwe at all? For the former, my guess is that it would have been unrecognizable--although not necessarily better. Melkor would still have killed the two trees, and I have the feeling Feanor would still have reacted in much the same way, although perhaps without so much bitterness; perhaps the kinslaying would not have happened. Interesting thought!


Ethel Duath
Valinor


Apr 27 2013, 4:47pm

Post #19 of 37 (258 views)
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Yes, [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it is across the board. Perhaps creative people take it a bit more personally since what they create is an expression of their inner selves, so that to have your works either exalted or criticized seems like judgments on the core of your being. But the character issue itself is basically the same I would think.


noWizardme
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2013, 6:20pm

Post #20 of 37 (273 views)
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Possessiveness too! [In reply to] Can't Post

Great post, Brethil. I think possessiveness is a problem too. Just to reveal your idea carries a risk for an insecure person:

Quote


“When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.”
(Winnie the Pooh)


And for a lot of creative projects to see daylight, the original creator has to work with others: editors, directors, agents, studios, performers etc. that takes a certain robustness; almost as if your idea is growing up, and you may or may not like the company it's choosing to keep.

But the "I'm the lone genius and I want total creative control" approach can cause trouble too: many a band has had a promising first album, and then been indulged into producing something useless next.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "


Escapist
Gondor


Apr 27 2013, 8:10pm

Post #21 of 37 (252 views)
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Good insight! [In reply to] Can't Post

What kind of drive / motivation would you call this?

In the Garage: Weezer

I've got a Dungeon Master's guide
I've got a 12-sided die
I've got Kitty Pryde
And Nightcrawler, too
Waiting there for me
Yes I do, I do

I've got posters on the wall
My favorite rock group KISS
I've got Ace Frehley
I've got Peter Criss
Waiting there for me
Yes I do, I do

In the garage, I feel safe
No one cares about my ways
In the garage, where I belong
No one hears me sing this song
In the garage

I've got an electric guitar
I play my stupid songs
I write these stupid words
[ From: http://www.elyrics.net ]
And I love every one
Waiting there for me
Yes I do, I do

In the garage, I feel safe
No one cares about my ways
In the garage where I belong
No one hears me sing this song
In the garage, in the garage

In the garage, I feel safe
No one cares about my ways
In the garage where I belong
No one hears me sing this song

In the garage, I feel safe
No one laughs about my ways
In the garage where I belong
No one hears me, no one hears me
No one hears me, no one hears me
No one hears me sing this song

Lyrics from <a href="http://www.elyrics.net">eLyrics.net</a>


Brethil
Half-elven


Apr 27 2013, 8:57pm

Post #22 of 37 (235 views)
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Clearly the best kind Escapist... [In reply to] Can't Post

Geek Drive...my favorite kind. It would appear (*looking thru microscope*) that this would be an internalized drive, you are creative for the fun of it. Electric guitars and especially that DM's guide...sounds like a sweet garage setup. Smile

Manwe, when asked a simple "Yes" or "No" question, contemplated, and responded "the middle one."


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2013, 9:23pm

Post #23 of 37 (245 views)
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talent vs. character [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
There is a tremendous amount of food for thought here. And reading the posts below, it's clear that at least Mim, if not Melkor is on the loose these days.

This reminds me of some vague memory I have of C.S. Lewis addressing something in this vein. With that idea in the back of my mind, I think it's that personal character is separate from one's gifts. If people (or Valar) tend to jealousy and envy and/or pride, I think the central temptation would be for them to make sure their accomplishments come out on top. And the "emptier" they are inside, the more they would want to destroy the work of others, to make sure there are no rivals--nothing to "detract" from those accomplishments. Ironically, I think Melkor missed the point that if viewed without a need to "rank" things as to greater or lesser, all creative efforts tend to enhance each other--prime the inner pump to see and receive beauty, new thoughts and images, deeper expression of feeling, and all the other things creativity does for us. And the realization that (I think this is a direct Lewis quote,or something he quoted from another source): "The highest does not stand without the lowest."

The exception, I guess, would be creative efforts with a bad end in mind, like someone writing songs for the Hitler Youth or artwork glorifying serial killers or something.

Melkor missed the fact that if he put his works in place along with the other Vala, the sum total would be far greater and more wonderful than any of the individual parts. He made himself poorer, not just those whose works he harmed.


an absolutely. important. distinction.

think of the way that, in milos forman's "amadeus," the character salieri (whose actual talents were downplayed for the sake of dramatic contrast) differed from mozart (whose charcter was transformed for the sake of drama into something more boorish than he was in real life).

one of the most poignant scenes in that film (and it's also the great hinge of the film upon which everything swings) is when salieri was recounting that, after discovering what sublime joy there was in music, and the joy of using music to praise god, he discovers that his talents are limited. salieri perceives that his greater talent lies in being able to recognize the sublime, rather than create it himself. he then recognizes the sublime in a person who in so many other ways was vulgar and unrefined:

'While my father prayed earnestly to God to protect commerce, I would offer up secretly the proudest prayer a boy could think of: Lord, make me a great composer. Let me celebrate Your glory through music and be celebrated myself. Make me famous through the world, dear God. Make me immortal. After I die, let people speak my name forever with love for what I wrote. In return, I will give You my chastity, my industry, my deepest humility, every hour of my life, Amen.'

'All I wanted was to sing to God. He gave me that longing... and then made me mute. Why? Tell me that. If He didn't want me to praise him with music, why implant the desire? Like a lust in my body! And then deny me the talent? '

i think part of salieri's initial problem was that he was asking for the talent so that he could be famous and rich, not just to sing the praises of god. it is not a sin to want to be well-fed, well-cared for, and to have a secure roof over one's head. but somewhere his love of music was comingling with his need to be loved and his need for security. which are not sins either, but they can become vulnerabilities.

the need to be loved is very strong, whether one is an artist or not. also, artists are often singled out, even as they are growing up, as being different, and those differences are not universally celebrated.

thinking differently. speaking a thought that others deem a challenge. just thinking differently, being different is somehow a threat to so many --- adults and children. the need for acceptance can be very sharp in the artist-child, if from the get-go the gifts she has been given mark her out for derision or reprimands.

i love your point, ethel duath, about creativity enhancing other creativity. just being around others who are pursuing their gifts, even if those specific gifts are not mine, often spurs me to engage in my own.

"Melkor missed the fact that if he put his works in place along with the other Vala, the sum total would be far greater and more wonderful than any of the individual parts. He made himself poorer, not just those whose works he harmed. "

again, great statement. great, great statement.

i'm curiously exploring as i type.... so... melkor was destructive, but he did also create (he created things that had negative impact, and were perceived negatively). thangorodrim. angband. the orcs ('tho their fear was a gift from eru, originally). did this creativity enhance the creativity of others? it was creativity in direct opposition to the creativity of others, true, but it was creativity. was the work of others enhanced?

just exploring.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Apr 27 2013, 9:24pm)


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2013, 9:27pm

Post #24 of 37 (233 views)
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thanks, nowimė : ) [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Letter 131 (to Miltin Waldman) in Tolkien's Letters has a long discussion of this topic (the same letter is printed in the Sulmarillion 2e)


i will look up 131...


cheers --


.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel


Maciliel
Tol Eressea


Apr 27 2013, 9:41pm

Post #25 of 37 (239 views)
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i'm in general agreement [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Melkor for example strikes me as an externalizing creationist: he creates to gain accolades, approval, love. If that is denied - for example his melodies during the Song - the process takes on the color of the rejection, and alters his internal worth and goals. Whereas Aule seems to be more internalizing, creating from sheer love of the materials and the work, and moving on to the next task without necessarily taking any else's opinion (the matter of the Dwarves a bit of a different level of drama; but I fully believe if Eru had allowed Aule to smash the Dwarves he would have dried his tears and gone back to work) or if given allowing that opinion to change his assessment of his work or himself.

It strikes me often that especially in our modern culture of superstardom and massive media saturation, the externalizing personality has a dangerous road to travel. Scathing rejection is just the click of a mouse away, and if one does what one does for the purpose of approval in order to maintain self esteem, I wonder if that is why there are so many dysfunctional relationships among those in the limelight.


i'm in general agreement, brethil... though i do muse (hey! a pun!) on this wrinkle: an "externalizer" might be more prone to share or display her creations (regardless of the motivation), because without sharing, she cannot receive the accolades. whereas perhaps we might not see as much of the work of the "internalizer," because the internalizer is satisfied just to set up shop and create. no one needs to see it.

we are oversimplifying, of course. if types exist, there are more than two.


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel

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